Why am I having trouble chambering cartridges in my 1886?

[Kev18]

What type of accuracy are you getting with the Buffalo Bore Arms ammo?

Buffalo arms ammo? I have boxes and boxes of them still never opened. The bullets are .406 dia . My bore would need .410 thats why i beagled my mold. And all the BA ammo is black powder and I have two boxes from GAD customs. Literally can't hit the side of a barn at 10 yards.

[Kev18]

Exactly. And shoot from a good rest -or you are wasting time and money. I've read in the past that the .40- 82 is a problem child best fed with softish lead/lube and Unique powder. I would sell it to a collector or have it rebored to 45-70 but that's just me.

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Naah, not gonna sell 'er. Il figure it out.

[Kev18]

I put solvent in the barrel with a brush and steel wool wrapped around it like someone mentioned above. So far its cleaning.

[garandsrus]

Kev,

You don’t want to use steel wool, it is too hard and could damage the barrel. You want to use copper wool like from a Chore Boy pad. Here’s a link to them: https://www.amazon.com/s/?ie=UTF8&ke...tbbaijaa_e_p37

You should be able to find them at the grocery store also.

I don’t see any lead flakes on your patch so you don’t appear to get any leading.

Did you shoot any of the BA ammo? The bullet might bump up and shoot well. Is the GAD custom ammo smokeless? You shot it and it didn’t shoot well, right?

[Kev18]

Kev,

You don’t want to use steel wool, it is too hard and could damage the barrel. You want to use copper wool like from a Chore Boy pad. Here’s a link to them: https://www.amazon.com/s/?ie=UTF8&ke...tbbaijaa_e_p37

You should be able to find them at the grocery store also.

I don’t see any lead flakes on your patch so you don’t appear to get any leading.

Did you shoot any of the BA ammo? The bullet might bump up and shoot well. Is the GAD custom ammo smokeless? You shot it and it didn’t shoot well, right?

Both are black powder. I shot a couple boxes from both companies with no success. I feel like BP bumps up the bullet alittle, but not enough for me. 40-82 were known to have bores ranging from .406 to .410. Both companies had .406 bullets.

[Kev18]

I'm using Quickload, Ver, 3.6. Over nine years that I've been using it, I have yet to find a significant error in its' database, but there's always the possibility.

QL defaults to a 400 grain bullet. That might be wrong. I have never played with the .40-82 myself, so have no other data.

It shows a maximum case volume of 79 grains of water, or 5.129 cc. Can you measure and verify? If that needs correcting I can do it and re-run the models.

Quick troll thru the Innertubes got me this URL https://winchestercollector.org/foru...eloading+data/

There the posters are saying AA5744 and 4198, with bullets around your weight. I have burned a lot of both in .30 and .35 caliber cartridges, but with gas checked bullets at 1600-1800 fps. Still, if you can get them, would be worth a try. Mike Venturino was very big on 5744 for large cases. I did not get good consistency until I got it up to 18-20,000 psi, however. 4198 is said to perform at lower pressures, but I have no quantitative data for large cases. It is one of the default powders for the much smaller .22 Lovell, which a pet of mine, and the .222 Remington. But there we are hammering jacketed bullet out the muzzle at 2700-3000 fps, pressures 40-45,000 psi. When I did reduced loads in the .222, I used Red Dot. Do not try that in your .40-82.

I object to cornmeal type fillers because they raise pressures, sometimes by a lot. That may however explain how you found loads using 3031 with a filler. The filler could/would have pushed the pressure into the range that 3013 likes.

I hold no brief whatever for Pyrodex in any form, because it deteriorates with age. I haven't shot black for a number of years now, but when I did I went to great lengths to obtain Swiss. 2F would be the right granulation of Goex. 3 to 5 grains of any sort of pistol powder, then fill the case with your black. Do not weigh, just fill the case to the base of the bullet.

Generally speaking, plain base bullets will start leading the barrel at about 1500 fps, unless cast pretty hard. No permanent damage, though. Many years ago I shot hundreds of commercial "hard cast" .35 caliber pistol bullets through my Dad's .35 Remington. They were miserable until I learned to push 'em to 1800 fps with XMP5744. I don't know how hard they actually were, but today I'd guess Br 15 to 18.

I'm not sure what you mean with water grains but the new case capacity is around 75 grains of 2f BP. And the max weight for a bullet I have seen actually work, is 310 grains from an old west mold. A user on here sent me alot of articles, some by Mike Venturo. He specifies that the barrel twist is to slow to stabilize anything above that weight.

[garandsrus]

Fill a case with water (spent primer in place) and then see what the weight of the water is. The easiest method is probably to weigh the dry case and then weigh the same case filled with water. The difference is the weight of water, in grains, if that is the units you are using.

[uscra112]

Hard to weigh a 40-82 case full of water if all you have is a beam balance scale. But for a big case like that you'll get close by just dumping the water into the pan to weigh it.

I'm eager to know what you find so I can correct my Quikload database.

[Kev18]

Before water


After Water

[uscra112]

Is that full to the top? I'm not seeing a meniscus there.

73 grains is a lot less than the 79 grains that's in the Quickload database.

[Kev18]

Is that full to the top? I'm not seeing a meniscus there.

73 grains is a lot less than the 79 grains that's in the Quickload database.

Cant add a single drop more.
Keep in mind the new cases are thicker. The cases in the early years were thin.

[uscra112]

Well, that's a first. Never before have I seen any parameter in the QL database be so far off.

They must have measured a balloon-head case. And what you have are solid-head, of course.

In any case (bad pun) I've adjusted my parameter, so my results will be closer to what you observe from now on.

Didja buy any more powder yet?

[Kev18]

Well, that's a first. Never before have I seen any parameter in the QL database be so far off.

They must have measured a balloon-head case. And what you have are solid-head, of course.

In any case (bad pun) I've adjusted my parameter, so my results will be closer to what you observe from now on.

Didja buy any more powder yet?

Got some 4227 to put on top of primers, 4198 to use as a smokeless load. Although il probably use cornmeal as a filler. Il copy loads from Mike Venturo.

[uscra112]

OK, good.

I'm still opposed to fillers, even moreso with 4198. What is Venturino saying about that?

[Kev18]

OK, good.

I'm still opposed to fillers, even moreso with 4198. What is Venturino saying about that?

255 gr bullet
28gr 4198 ( cornmeal filler)
1478 fps
2 1/4 inch group.

255gr bullet
34 gr 3031 ( cornmeal filler)
1458 fps
2 1/4 inch group.


He also tested 280 and 310 grain bullets. 310 being the heaviest and most accurate bullet that can be used.
I have articles from Mike, Larry O'connell and couple others about the 40-82. Everyone uses fillers, without them the powder does not ignite or causes hang fires.

[Kev18]

I'm at the cottage shooting. I made 20 rounds. 10 70 grains of Goex 2f and 4227 on the primer. And another 10 rounds of the same thing just 68 grains of goex. I was barely hitting my paper so I made a big back board to see where the bullets were landing. Put of twenty rounds I barely hit it at about 50 feet.
When I only had 4 rounds left I took the target out to the swamp. I put it 45 feet and shot. I got hole in hole accuracy. I have no idea what I did but it was accurate. The only thing I could think of was that I backed my head up on the stock because my peep sight got stamped in my cheek due to heavy recoil. Once I moved my head back I hit all of the 4 rounds in the target. Il post pictures when I get home. I have no idea how to do it on my phone.

[Kev18]

[Texas by God]

You've got too many rear sights on that rifle

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[uscra112]

OK, not stellar, but progress all the same. Especially changing your hold!

My final comment on fillers, then I'll shut up:

I hang out (figuratively speaking), with the guys on the ASSRA website. In theory at least dedicated to the preservation of the 19th century Schuetzen game. The best of these guys can keep every shot on a salad plate at 200 yards, offhand, using iron sights. On the bench it's more like a silver dollar, AND they shoot for score, which means a tight group out in the 7-ring does you no good at all. The rules say plain base bullets. Everybody breech seats, rather than seating the bullet in the case. Cartridges vary from .25-20 Single Shot to .32-40, with a rare individual who can take the recoil of a .38-55 all day. (Many matches are 100 shots.) Top shooters do tend to use powders faster than 4198; AA#9, 4227, AA4100, etc. Case volume probably has something to do with it - the .32-40 is only 41 grains of water.

To the point: NOBODY today uses fillers. Some do use a tiny tuft of kapok or toilet tissue to keep the powder close to the primer, and it is very popular to use a thin wad of floral foam at the case mouth, just to avoid spilling powder. (Wads down on the powder cause chamber ringing!)

I'm a natural skeptic. Even the Gun Gods of my youth published some strange and even dangerous loads. Especially Elmer and his infamous "OKH duplex loads" scheme. Those were the days! No cheap electronic instrumentation, no computers, just load it up and tie a string to the trigger!

http://elmerkeithshoot.org/GA/1982_1...le_Charges.pdf Read this through - he has a little to say about fillers.

But then he also advocated a card wad down on the powder, which has now been proven to be THE prime cause of ringed chambers.

I cannot factor fillers into my QL models, so you're on your own in re: pressures. Do you have a chronograph? That'll give an indirect estimate.

Cheers!

Phil

[Kev18]

You've got too many rear sights on that rifle

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I have a peep and a normal V style folding ladder sight.