MidSouth Shooters SupplyRotoMetals2Load DataWideners
Inline FabricationReloading EverythingLee PrecisionTitan Reloading
Repackbox
Page 7 of 9 FirstFirst 123456789 LastLast
Results 121 to 140 of 171

Thread: Why am I having trouble chambering cartridges in my 1886?

  1. #121
    Boolit Grand Master uscra112's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Switzerland of Ohio
    Posts
    6,313
    Quote Originally Posted by Geobru View Post
    Might want to consider spending the money to get the right expander for your rifle. You can order it for under $20 with the shipping IIRC.
    Unfortunately, therein lies a problem. Die makers, even Lyman for their M dies, do not offer anything like an adequate range of expander sizes. Which is why I had to take to making my own, as I posted earlier. Needs a lathe, (even a very small benchtop will do). Buy lengths of 9/16-18 threaded rod (McMaster-Carr #98957A407) and have at it. (9/16-18 is the internal thread in the M-die body. My plugs replace the Lyman adjuster screw and the separate screw-in expander with a single piece. Lots easier to make that way.) Believe it or not, I have three different expanders just for the .38 Special, because brass temper affects the springback and hence the final size. I pick the one that gets me the best fit for the batch of brass I'm using for my wadcutter target loads. It DOES make a difference.
    Cognitive Dissident

  2. #122
    Boolit Master Kev18's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2017
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    1,393
    I went shooting for a bit last weekend. It wasnt so much of an accuracy test. I just usually shoot off hand. Id need to get a table in the backyard with a sand bag or something, but anyways... Some bullets dropped in the cases still. Only about 3 in 30 though. And maybe one or two hard to chamber but thats probably because I didnt crimp/resize the neck enough. Pretty succesful. Next time I need to see what the accuracy is like.

  3. #123
    Boolit Master Kev18's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2017
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    1,393
    I made 27 rounds. Went shooting again. Maybe I didnt make the round properly but I was having serious accuracy issues. At about 15 ft from the target hole in hole accuracy. I moved back maybe 35 ft. Still grouping just off center. And at about 100ft or more. Dont even bother.
    Are my sights bad? The barrel to hot?
    I took large rifle primers, 34 grains of 3031, added some of my dog's fur as a filler. Instead of dacron. I thought it would work. And topped it off with a 260gr beagled bullet as mentioned somewhere above, and that was covered in Lee liquid Alox. My issue here is that I didnt lube them, I usually take Tc bore butter but I didnt add any.
    Why is it shooting bad?
    Should I add a 40 cal fiber wad to help as amakeshift gas check underneath?

  4. #124
    Moderator
    Texas by God's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2016
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    14,334
    Sell that gun. I mean my gosh even hair of the dog didn't help!

  5. #125
    Boolit Grand Master uscra112's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Switzerland of Ohio
    Posts
    6,313
    You didn't lube them??? Your barrel is now so badly leaded that it will take a week to clean.

    Liquid Alox is for low pressure pistol rounds to be shot through short barrels.

    Bore Butter is for cloth patched muzzleloaders, although it does work OK in my Old Army when I keep the load mild and shoot only 1 or 2 cylinders.
    Last edited by uscra112; 08-11-2018 at 05:51 PM.
    Cognitive Dissident

  6. #126
    Boolit Master Kev18's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2017
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    1,393
    Quote Originally Posted by Texas by God View Post
    Sell that gun. I mean my gosh even hair of the dog didn't help!
    I know. What's good filler that I could use. I have dacron, but I'd like something more consistent. I think people said cornmeal, but wouldn't that compress the powder?

  7. #127
    Boolit Master Kev18's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2017
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    1,393
    Quote Originally Posted by uscra112 View Post
    You didn't lube them??? Your barrel is now so badly leaded that it will take a week to clean.

    Liquid Alox is for low pressure pistol rounds to be shot through short barrels.

    Bore Butter is for cloth patched muzzleloaders, although it does work OK in my Old Army when I keep the load mild and shoot only 1 or 2 cylinders.
    Naah,its fine. I passed a bore snake in between shots nearing the end. It looks pretty good. I'd like to make my own lube but people say to use beeswax with some type of oil. Beeswax is really expensive... I have alot of melted candle wax, but I read that it can cause issues with scented candles, and the different types of wax used.

  8. #128
    Boolit Grand Master uscra112's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Switzerland of Ohio
    Posts
    6,313
    Quote Originally Posted by Kev18 View Post
    I know. What's good filler that I could use. I have dacron, but I'd like something more consistent. I think people said cornmeal, but wouldn't that compress the powder?
    With that load you should not be using any fillers at all! Stop it!
    Cognitive Dissident

  9. #129
    Boolit Grand Master uscra112's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Switzerland of Ohio
    Posts
    6,313
    Quote Originally Posted by Kev18 View Post
    Naah,its fine. I passed a bore snake in between shots nearing the end. It looks pretty good. I'd like to make my own lube but people say to use beeswax with some type of oil. Beeswax is really expensive... I have alot of melted candle wax, but I read that it can cause issues with scented candles, and the different types of wax used.
    You can buy excellent pre-mixed lubes for just a few $$. I use White Label 2500 a lot, but for your application the old NRA 50-50 formula will do nicely.

    http://www.lsstuff.com/store/index.p...=index&cPath=1

    A couple of solid sticks will cost you less than a cup of Starbucks.

    Learn to pan lube. Or just soften the stuff in hot water and fill your lube grooves with your fingers.

    Paraffin wax is a poor bullet lube, although it IS used to harden up mixtures which are too soft. Forget it for now.

    Pulling a bore snake through will not tell you whether your bore is leaded. Nor will a quick eyeball. You will need a bore brush wrapped with fine steel wool.

    Has that gun ever been fired with jacketed bullets? If so, the deposited copper must be completely removed. Copper will grab lead like nobody's business. Until that bore is squeaky clean, free of all metal fouling, you are just chasing your tail.
    Cognitive Dissident

  10. #130
    Boolit Master Kev18's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2017
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    1,393
    Quote Originally Posted by uscra112 View Post
    With that load you should not be using any fillers at all! Stop it!
    I dont really have a choice. I have made alot of threads in the past and everyone uses fillers for 40-82. The powder dosent even fill the case half way. The case is to long. So the powder dosent even burn. I've tried it.

  11. #131
    Boolit Master Kev18's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2017
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    1,393
    Quote Originally Posted by uscra112 View Post
    You can buy excellent pre-mixed lubes for just a few $$. I use White Label 2500 a lot, but for your application the old NRA 50-50 formula will do nicely.

    http://www.lsstuff.com/store/index.p...=index&cPath=1

    A couple of solid sticks will cost you less than a cup of Starbucks.

    Learn to pan lube. Or just soften the stuff in hot water and fill your lube grooves with your fingers.

    Paraffin wax is a poor bullet lube, although it IS used to harden up mixtures which are too soft. Forget it for now.

    Pulling a bore snake through will not tell you whether your bore is leaded. Nor will a quick eyeball. You will need a bore brush wrapped with fine steel wool.

    Has that gun ever been fired with jacketed bullets? If so, the deposited copper must be completely removed. Copper will grab lead like nobody's business. Until that bore is squeaky clean, free of all metal fouling, you are just chasing your tail.
    Never been fired with jackets as far as I know, not from me atleast. And il definitely get lube when I get home. Is there any product that helps with removing lead or is it just a standard brush? I think I have solvent that says it helps with copper and lead but do those things even work?

  12. #132
    Boolit Grand Master uscra112's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Switzerland of Ohio
    Posts
    6,313
    The only thing that REALLY removes lead is mercury, which is impossible get now because it's potentially so toxic. Hoppe's makes a "Lead Remover" which helps a little when using the steel-wool-on-a-brush trick. Unfortunately lead is one metal that is immune to most solvents. If the fouling isn't too gross, I usually clear it by firing half a dozen jacketed bullets, and then clear the copper out with Hoppe's or Shooter's Choice.

    My Quickload software says that your load of 3031 fills 64% of the available case volume. Your problem with it not burning cleanly is the light bullet. It doesn't put up enough resistance to let the powder build up to it's optimum pressure. QL calculates just 12000 psi., and 3031 wants to work at 20000+ psi. 34 grains is a fairly light load even for the more usual 400 grain bullets used in the .40-82. Try another powder.

    Is your bullet gas checked or plain base? If not gas checked, you kinda have to keep it down to 1400 fps or so. Which means you need a powder that does like the 10,000 / 15000 psi. range. That puts you in the realm of the magnum pistol powders - Blue Dot, 2400, AA#7, HS-6, Ramshot True Blue. Reasonable starting loads around 12-14 grains. These do not fill past 50%, so you have the be HYPER vigilant about avoiding double charges. Do that just once and you won't have a gun anymore. A 2cm. square of toilet paper will help keep the powder close to the primer, if the load proves to be position sensitive. Do not EVER use a card or felt wad!!! I used to use kapok, a vegetable fiber that doesn't melt and gum up the gun and the cases like dacron. You can usually find it online. A few ounces will last almost forever, you use so little.

    This also looks like an application for Trail Boss, although you'll only get to 1200 fps or so before you hit the SAAMI recommended pressure limit of 18000 psi.

    Honestly, if I were working with the .40-82, I'd be using Holy Black, with 3 grains of smokeless pistol powder next to the primer to keep the fouling manageable. It's such a PITA to clean those Winchester lever guns.
    Cognitive Dissident

  13. #133
    Boolit Master Kev18's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2017
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    1,393
    Quote Originally Posted by uscra112 View Post
    The only thing that REALLY removes lead is mercury, which is impossible get now because it's potentially so toxic. Hoppe's makes a "Lead Remover" which helps a little when using the steel-wool-on-a-brush trick. Unfortunately lead is one metal that is immune to most solvents. If the fouling isn't too gross, I usually clear it by firing half a dozen jacketed bullets, and then clear the copper out with Hoppe's or Shooter's Choice.

    My Quickload software says that your load of 3031 fills 64% of the available case volume. Your problem with it not burning cleanly is the light bullet. It doesn't put up enough resistance to let the powder build up to it's optimum pressure. QL calculates just 12000 psi., and 3031 wants to work at 20000+ psi. 34 grains is a fairly light load even for the more usual 400 grain bullets used in the .40-82. Try another powder.

    Is your bullet gas checked or plain base? If not gas checked, you kinda have to keep it down to 1400 fps or so. Which means you need a powder that does like the 10,000 / 15000 psi. range. That puts you in the realm of the magnum pistol powders - Blue Dot, 2400, AA#7, HS-6, Ramshot True Blue. Reasonable starting loads around 12-14 grains. These do not fill past 50%, so you have the be HYPER vigilant about avoiding double charges. Do that just once and you won't have a gun anymore. A 2cm. square of toilet paper will help keep the powder close to the primer, if the load proves to be position sensitive. Do not EVER use a card or felt wad!!! I used to use kapok, a vegetable fiber that doesn't melt and gum up the gun and the cases like dacron. You can usually find it online. A few ounces will last almost forever, you use so little.

    This also looks like an application for Trail Boss, although you'll only get to 1200 fps or so before you hit the SAAMI recommended pressure limit of 18000 psi.

    Honestly, if I were working with the .40-82, I'd be using Holy Black, with 3 grains of smokeless pistol powder next to the primer to keep the fouling manageable. It's such a PITA to clean those Winchester lever guns.
    What software are you using? My cases definitely arent halfway full. And never heard of anyone using 400grn bullets for 40-82. No way. The most ive seen is 300, and apparently causes accuracy issues since the barrel has a very slow twist.
    My bullet is plain base, no gas check. And I dont have a choice to keep it lower than 1500 fps. SOmeone told me any hotter than that and the barrel will get damaged.
    And I have trail boss, but when I shoot it feels like a .22 . Dosent have any power what so ever.
    Alot of people told me to use BP and that it would solve alot of issues. Someone mentioend a specific powder to put on top of the primer for less fowling, il need to go back up the thread.
    What do you think would be better? Pyrodex 2f. Or goex 2f. Thats what I have, but pyrodex has smaller grains that don't fill up the case as much.

  14. #134
    Boolit Grand Master uscra112's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Switzerland of Ohio
    Posts
    6,313
    I'm using Quickload, Ver, 3.6. Over nine years that I've been using it, I have yet to find a significant error in its' database, but there's always the possibility.

    QL defaults to a 400 grain bullet. That might be wrong. I have never played with the .40-82 myself, so have no other data.

    It shows a maximum case volume of 79 grains of water, or 5.129 cc. Can you measure and verify? If that needs correcting I can do it and re-run the models.

    Quick troll thru the Innertubes got me this URL https://winchestercollector.org/foru...eloading+data/

    There the posters are saying AA5744 and 4198, with bullets around your weight. I have burned a lot of both in .30 and .35 caliber cartridges, but with gas checked bullets at 1600-1800 fps. Still, if you can get them, would be worth a try. Mike Venturino was very big on 5744 for large cases. I did not get good consistency until I got it up to 18-20,000 psi, however. 4198 is said to perform at lower pressures, but I have no quantitative data for large cases. It is one of the default powders for the much smaller .22 Lovell, which a pet of mine, and the .222 Remington. But there we are hammering jacketed bullet out the muzzle at 2700-3000 fps, pressures 40-45,000 psi. When I did reduced loads in the .222, I used Red Dot. Do not try that in your .40-82.

    I object to cornmeal type fillers because they raise pressures, sometimes by a lot. That may however explain how you found loads using 3031 with a filler. The filler could/would have pushed the pressure into the range that 3013 likes.

    I hold no brief whatever for Pyrodex in any form, because it deteriorates with age. I haven't shot black for a number of years now, but when I did I went to great lengths to obtain Swiss. 2F would be the right granulation of Goex. 3 to 5 grains of any sort of pistol powder, then fill the case with your black. Do not weigh, just fill the case to the base of the bullet.

    Generally speaking, plain base bullets will start leading the barrel at about 1500 fps, unless cast pretty hard. No permanent damage, though. Many years ago I shot hundreds of commercial "hard cast" .35 caliber pistol bullets through my Dad's .35 Remington. They were miserable until I learned to push 'em to 1800 fps with XMP5744. I don't know how hard they actually were, but today I'd guess Br 15 to 18.
    Cognitive Dissident

  15. #135
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    May 2017
    Posts
    3,702
    Quote Originally Posted by Kev18 View Post
    What software are you using? My cases definitely arent halfway full. And never heard of anyone using 400grn bullets for 40-82. No way. The most ive seen is 300, and apparently causes accuracy issues since the barrel has a very slow twist.
    My bullet is plain base, no gas check. And I dont have a choice to keep it lower than 1500 fps. SOmeone told me any hotter than that and the barrel will get damaged.
    And I have trail boss, but when I shoot it feels like a .22 . Dosent have any power what so ever.
    Alot of people told me to use BP and that it would solve alot of issues. Someone mentioend a specific powder to put on top of the primer for less fowling, il need to go back up the thread.
    What do you think would be better? Pyrodex 2f. Or goex 2f. Thats what I have, but pyrodex has smaller grains that don't fill up the case as much.
    Kev
    Not pyrodex !!!! use proper blackpowder - FFGoex is good - if you want to use duplex - I have shot duplex in my Uberti 1876 with good results 3 to 5 grains of 4227 works good down at the primer then fill up with black - just need to be a bit carefull that the smokeless goes in first and stays down over the flash hole (not mixed with the black you got two layers) also used SR4759 but liked the other better - I reckon this is a lot easier than trying to figure out safe smokeless loads in these old large capacity cases - you get all the benefits of BP loading and at the same time you dont foul out from it - still can NOT put the gun away dirty though - cleanup is easy once you figure out a system - water - brush - gun belly up so the magazine dont get wet - patches and oil - must have a muzzle protector on your cleaning rod - it dont take long at all.

  16. #136
    Boolit Master Kev18's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2017
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    1,393
    Quote Originally Posted by indian joe View Post
    Kev
    Not pyrodex !!!! use proper blackpowder - FFGoex is good - if you want to use duplex - I have shot duplex in my Uberti 1876 with good results 3 to 5 grains of 4227 works good down at the primer then fill up with black - just need to be a bit carefull that the smokeless goes in first and stays down over the flash hole (not mixed with the black you got two layers) also used SR4759 but liked the other better - I reckon this is a lot easier than trying to figure out safe smokeless loads in these old large capacity cases - you get all the benefits of BP loading and at the same time you dont foul out from it - still can NOT put the gun away dirty though - cleanup is easy once you figure out a system - water - brush - gun belly up so the magazine dont get wet - patches and oil - must have a muzzle protector on your cleaning rod - it dont take long at all.
    Ok no pyrodex, is it because it wont fill up the case?
    Il get 4227 this week, and il order lube.
    And how many shots do you think will start to affect accuracy? How much time do I have before the BP starts to eat away the barrel? I go shoot at the cottage for the weekend and usually come back sunday night. Would I need to clean it right away or can I wait til the day after?

  17. #137
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    May 2017
    Posts
    3,702
    Quote Originally Posted by Kev18 View Post
    Ok no pyrodex, is it because it wont fill up the case?
    Il get 4227 this week, and il order lube.
    And how many shots do you think will start to affect accuracy? How much time do I have before the BP starts to eat away the barrel? I go shoot at the cottage for the weekend and usually come back sunday night. Would I need to clean it right away or can I wait til the day after?
    Pyrodex ? is extremely difficult to clean well enough to stop it from rusting the steel of your gun - it looks clean but the stuff gets into the molecular structure of the steel and initiates rusting (it leaves a perchlorate residue - very bad stuff)
    How many shots ? how long is a piece of string ? in a new barrel 38/40, duplex 3grains 4227, under full case of black, RCBS cowboy projectile, plenty of good lube - - I have shot 50 with no effect whatsoever - could shoot that rifle with that load indefinitely I think.
    Your barrel is a bit spotty (pitted) it will be ok till it starts to pick up some lead I think. Make sure your lube is either a proper bought BLACKPOWDER lube or make it yourself with beeswax and tallow or neatsfoot oil or olive oil or some other natural oil. most Smokeless lubes are next to worthless with blackpowder. the secret with blackpowder is keeping the residue soft in the bore and it will form a soft smudge at the muzzle. That little bit of smokeless in a duplex load burns most of the blackpowder residue up.
    Blackpowder residue dont "eat away the barrel" - the residue attracts moisture and there is some salts in it - that combination starts the rusting process - if you can keep it dry (like Arizona desert dry) it takes quite a while. normal conditions tomorrow is fine , the day after is ok , a week later maybe, the trouble is after a couple days we forget that we didnt do it and come back two months later in a humid environment ------ouch !!!!! rusty barrel!!! Make yourself a cleaning cradle (I will post a pic tomorrow - cradle - flush bottle - muzzle protector)

  18. #138
    Moderator Emeritus
    garandsrus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Warren, MI
    Posts
    2,935
    What type of accuracy are you getting with the Buffalo Bore Arms ammo?

  19. #139
    Moderator
    Texas by God's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2016
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    14,334
    Quote Originally Posted by garandsrus View Post
    What type of accuracy are you getting with the Buffalo Bore Arms ammo?
    Exactly. And shoot from a good rest -or you are wasting time and money. I've read in the past that the .40- 82 is a problem child best fed with softish lead/lube and Unique powder. I would sell it to a collector or have it rebored to 45-70 but that's just me.

    Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

  20. #140
    Boolit Master Kev18's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2017
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    1,393
    Quote Originally Posted by indian joe View Post
    Pyrodex ? is extremely difficult to clean well enough to stop it from rusting the steel of your gun - it looks clean but the stuff gets into the molecular structure of the steel and initiates rusting (it leaves a perchlorate residue - very bad stuff)
    How many shots ? how long is a piece of string ? in a new barrel 38/40, duplex 3grains 4227, under full case of black, RCBS cowboy projectile, plenty of good lube - - I have shot 50 with no effect whatsoever - could shoot that rifle with that load indefinitely I think.
    Your barrel is a bit spotty (pitted) it will be ok till it starts to pick up some lead I think. Make sure your lube is either a proper bought BLACKPOWDER lube or make it yourself with beeswax and tallow or neatsfoot oil or olive oil or some other natural oil. most Smokeless lubes are next to worthless with blackpowder. the secret with blackpowder is keeping the residue soft in the bore and it will form a soft smudge at the muzzle. That little bit of smokeless in a duplex load burns most of the blackpowder residue up.
    Blackpowder residue dont "eat away the barrel" - the residue attracts moisture and there is some salts in it - that combination starts the rusting process - if you can keep it dry (like Arizona desert dry) it takes quite a while. normal conditions tomorrow is fine , the day after is ok , a week later maybe, the trouble is after a couple days we forget that we didnt do it and come back two months later in a humid environment ------ouch !!!!! rusty barrel!!! Make yourself a cleaning cradle (I will post a pic tomorrow - cradle - flush bottle - muzzle protector)
    Thanks for all the info. Il go buy powder tommorow for sure! And id like some pictures too, Il try to make a cradle if its not to hard.

Page 7 of 9 FirstFirst 123456789 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check