I guess I'm going to have to reline the barrel of my old Winchester

[David LaPell]

I have been trying to find a load or a way to avoid it, but I am afraid I am going to have to reline the barrel of my old 1892 Winchester. My local gunsmith does this and since there is no bluing left sweating the liner in after he drills it out isn't that big of a deal. I tried .313" lead bullets and even .315" paper patched bullets. After the first couple of bullets being somewhere near the target, the accuracy just goes out the window. With the shallow rifling, there isn't enough for the bullet to really grab hold anymore.

[pietro]

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Yep - 100+ years ago, steels were somewhat softer than today's steel.


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[Kev18]

I had same results with my 1886. Old rifles are all different. It took me 2 years to finally get mine shooting straight. You are lucky to hit that paper at 25 yards. I surely couldn't! Mine would miss point blank, and dont get me wrong. My rifling is the old style, shallow kind with pits in the barrel. I thought exactly like you, that id need a new barrel but nope... my load was wrong, bullet weight, my brass was a little thick in the neck causing chambering issues. If you can think of a problem... I have dealt with it.

I finally got it shooting good 2 weeks ago. I bought the rifle 3 years ago.
Point of the story: Just because someone says something works in there rifle, does not mean it will work for you!
Commercial ammo, or already reloaded ammo that is available through sellers like Buffalo Arms for example, maybe wont work.

[David LaPell]

I had same results with my 1886. Old rifles are all different. It took me 2 years to finally get mine shooting straight. You are lucky to hit that paper at 25 yards. I surely couldn't! Mine would miss point blank, and dont get me wrong. My rifling is the old style, shallow kind with pits in the barrel. I thought exactly like you, that id need a new barrel but nope... my load was wrong, bullet weight, my brass was a little thick in the neck causing chambering issues. If you can think of a problem... I have dealt with it.

I finally got it shooting good 2 weeks ago. I bought the rifle 3 years ago.
Point of the story: Just because someone says something works in there rifle, does not mean it will work for you!
Commercial ammo, or already reloaded ammo that is available through sellers like Buffalo Arms for example, maybe wont work.

Yeah, factory ammo isn't even on paper, keyholes big time and I can tell you it's off four to five feet at 25 yards. .312" 115 grain handloads, large group size, starting to keyhole. The .313" 115 grain Lyman bullets I am using, tried them with various loads, best is a couple inches but after the first couple shots, accuracy goes away quickly. I've cleaned the barrel, to no avail, slugged it, got .312" but it's got a couple spots where the cleaning patch goes a bit easier. The bore is good, but it's just sadly an old barrel. Even with the paper patched bullets, which are .315" aren't doing that great either. I think anymore testing will be a waste of ammo.

[Texas by God]

I had a Win 06 pump .22 with two ring bulges in it that shot like your 92. If I closed my eyes it shot better.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

[Kev18]

Yeah, factory ammo isn't even on paper, keyholes big time and I can tell you it's off four to five feet at 25 yards. .312" 115 grain handloads, large group size, starting to keyhole. The .313" 115 grain Lyman bullets I am using, tried them with various loads, best is a couple inches but after the first couple shots, accuracy goes away quickly. I've cleaned the barrel, to no avail, slugged it, got .312" but it's got a couple spots where the cleaning patch goes a bit easier. The bore is good, but it's just sadly an old barrel. Even with the paper patched bullets, which are .315" aren't doing that great either. I think anymore testing will be a waste of ammo.

Everything you are saying, I dealt with. You can get it re barreled of course. Its your rifle. I wanted to keep mine the way it was. So I kept trying and trying. My 1886 was made in 1889 and is chambered in 40-82. really odd ball cartridge. Not the type to just " throw powder in the case and shoot". Its the little things that matter. For example, I thought my bore was big for my bullet. I was shooting .406 bullets. But 1886's in 40-82 were known to have bores up to .410. So I beagled the mold. Was shooting .410 bullets now. Still wasnt good. Couldnt hit anything... like you. So I kept looking. People were saying to try toilet paper as filler. I can say accuracy "improved". By that I mean I could hit a barn 1 shot out of 10.
Others were suggesting to use cornmeal filler. So I went out and bought some. Turns out thats what I needed. Just abit of cornmeal...
Think about a reloading tool or accessory that might exist related to the caliber and Im most likely going to have it. I spent alot of money on this gun.

I can have the same rifle as you, made the same day and get a tack driver with powder A. You try powder A, and cant hit anything. Maybe powder A,B,C,D... wont work. But powder L will. You just need to keep trying.
Keep in mind taht rifles in those days were made "by hand". people say quality was better, which in some cases is very true, but quality and consistency are two different variables. These days they can put 10 receivers in a milling machine and get 10 really great or really ****ty receivers but they will all be exactly the same. Back in the day, it was rare that rifles were made the exact same.

Also. Pro tip: Look at old articles in magazine or really old forum posts about your rifle/ caliber. You will get alot more of good info there. If you have an issue I can guaranty someone has had the exact same issue.
DON'T GIVE UP!


This was with one of my first more "successful" attempts at a load 2 months ago maybe. Probably 25-30 yards away. (the bottom target. little holes are just .22's) Look at the few shots that just flew off on there own.

[northmn]

Another issue besides powder may be the alloy. Some of htose old guns do not really shoot hard cast so well but will slug up the old lead tin bullets like 1-20 or even 1-30 at BP velocities. Also some actually get better results using BP as it slugs to the bore. Have you slugged the bore?
Factory loads in my new made 94CL in 32-20 don't shoot either. I tried to sight in a box of them I was given and I could not as they were that inaccurate.
I see you are using 2400. Its possible that a faster powder like Unique may also work better and give more consistent shot to shot velocities. 4.5-5 grains of Unique is an old standard for the 32-20 I believe, check it out first. I have had good results with other powders and am using some up just to use it up.


DP

[upnorthwis]

Had the same thing in a .38-55 Model 94 Win made in 1899. Cured the problem by seating the bullets out so far that they would have to be crushed in to the rifling with the lever. Went to a cast bullet silhouette match and had cleaned the chickens and pigs and was working on the turkeys when one didn't fall. Spotter said he saw a branch fall off a tree about 10 feet over the target. So there was at least one more flier in there.

[hylander]

I would say reline that rifle if that is the best at 25yds.
Seems to me a waste of time and ammo when you could be shooting and having fun.

[35 Whelen]

I have an 1886 production 1873 Winchester in 38-40 that shot about the same way as yours, poor groups at 25 yards IF the bullets even hit point on. I sent it to John Taylor and am I glad I did!! You wouldn't know it was lined unless you knew to look and now it shoots better groups at 200 yards than it used to at 25 yards!

25 yds. after lining the barrel-



200 yds. after lining the barrel-



If your gun were mine, I'd have it lined.

35W

[northmn]

I would have to say that relining like 35 Whelen would be very satisfying as compared to messing around with cures that at best might be just "shootable".


DP

[Texas by God]

I would say reline that rifle if that is the best at 25yds.
Seems to me a waste of time and ammo when you could be shooting and having fun.

This^^^^ with no reservations. Reline and enjoy!

[David LaPell]

I am going to give the gun one more chance, this more I took some JB bore paste and went to town and cleaned the barrel, I did it once before and that's right about when I got a little accuracy out of it. Well, this morning I went over it again, more thoroughly and the barrel looks a lot better. The sad part is there is rifling, it's just very shallow. I noticed that now even the tightest patch fits more evenly as it goes down the barrel. I am going to load up a few more rounds, probably some with 2400, some with Unique, and see what happens. If nothing else, I can say that I have tried to do what I can with the original barrel. If not, then I will order a liner and get it to the gunsmith to get it taken care of.

[John Taylor]

I sometime scare customers with rifles that don't shoot well by using 4-0 steel wool to clean them. I have seen many improve with a good cleaning. I also install lots of liners but I quit using solder almost 20 years ago, Loctite is the way to go. I know some are using epoxy but I have seen liners move with this. First thing with liners is to get a close fit, I try for .002"- .004" clearance. To get this I use an undersize piloted drill and then pull a reamer through. The reamer is mounted on a tube that has a steady flow of cutting oil to wash the chips out.

[northmn]

Do they use JB Weld or plain epoxy. I have used JB weld on some projects and it is pretty good stuff. Also 5 minute epoxy will break down over time as compared to the original longer setting stuff. Heard the chemical reasons for that but I did switch when I was repairing stocks and things because of it. I formed a higher sight on a fixed sight 38 special revolver out of JB and it is still functioning.

Also for epoxy I would consider roughing up the surfaces a bit.


DEP

[indian joe]

I sometime scare customers with rifles that don't shoot well by using 4-0 steel wool to clean them. I have seen many improve with a good cleaning. I also install lots of liners but I quit using solder almost 20 years ago, Loctite is the way to go. I know some are using epoxy but I have seen liners move with this. First thing with liners is to get a close fit, I try for .002"- .004" clearance. To get this I use an undersize piloted drill and then pull a reamer through. The reamer is mounted on a tube that has a steady flow of cutting oil to wash the chips out.

John - Thanks for posting this
I have rescued maybe a dozen barrels with steel wool - usually use some kind of polishing compound on it (brasso - or some jewellers rouge) - I use a worn brass brush and wrap the steel wool till it is real tight in the barrel. Slug the barrel before and after is pretty convincing - have not measured a change in size of the slug but you can see the torn metal on the before one and the after pushes through much easier and comes out shiny where the bore cuts it.
Fellers on here have been unconvinced to downright hostile to the idea though - maybe they listen to you?
joe

[Texas by God]

Steel wool is the business for cleaning barrels inside and out. I've never harmed a gun with it but I've helped a bunch. 0000 grade is always on my bench.

[TCLouis]

If ya reline it, you may even want to think about making it come back to life as a 30-20.
Certainly does increase your choices of boolits/bullets.

Others may correct my opinion on this one.

[gundownunder]

If your rifling is shallow, try loading it like you would a micro groove. Bullets 2 thou oversize, velocity under 1600 fps, and play with the alloy till you get one that grips the rifling.
I was using 2400 in my Marlin CL 32-20 but that is not a microgroove, and I don't think it would have been under 1600 fps either. My bullets are Accurates 32-105-C, used as cast at .314. Now that I can't get 2400 over here I am using ADI 2207 which is about equal to Rel7.
One of the members at my local club has an original 1907 vintage 32-20 and he also uses 2207 in it with excellent results. He opted for 07 because he wanted gentler acceleration in that old rifle, and he is a master class shooter so he knows a little bit about his guns.

[samari46]

There should be a copy of TJ's liner list on the assra forum usually where the stickied posts are. I believe there is one for a 1x16 twist if you want to shoot a slightly heavier bullet and there is one with a 1x10 twist if you want to shoot the heavy bullets 200 plus grains.Frank