Why am I having trouble chambering cartridges in my 1886?

[Walks]

25+yrs ago there was no neck turning option available. And a neck reaming setup was more than 1/2 again the price of 5 boxes of BERTRAM BRASS. A REDDING 3 DIE SET was expensive enough. Add a mold & SIZING DIE w/ top punch to the BERTRAM brass price and 100 Starline .45-90 cases I couldn't use. And I'd spent almost the price of the rifle, before firing a shot.

A couple of years later Ken at TEN-X AMMO made a limited run of .40-82 PBFP Smokeless ammo. At $60 bucks a box it wasn't cheap. The loads used B.E.L.L. reformed brass. I shot one box and kept the other. That B.E.L.L. brass reloaded fantastic. It functioned perfectly and shot very well too.

[Kev18]

Kinda unrelated, but can someone tell me what the proper sight picture is for a tang sight ? I have a layman tang right on the 86 and I've been trying to figure out what the sight picture should be. Should I see the whole front sight , or just the blade through the hole?its really bugging me.

[Texas by God]

Kinda unrelated, but can someone tell me what the proper sight picture is for a tang sight ? I have a layman tang right on the 86 and I've been trying to figure out what the sight picture should be. Should I see the whole front sight , or just the blade through the hole?its really bugging me.

Your eye will automatically center the front sight- don't fight it. On a post front I like to sight the gun in to where the bulĺet strikes right on top of the post.

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[Texas by God]

Try casting with soft lead without beagling, use soft lube like LLA, and use Unique to get that BP like "bump up" on the bullet base.
A Ruger Vaquero 44-40 with .426" cyl throats and a .430" barrel taught me so.

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[Kev18]

Your eye will automatically center the front sight- don't fight it. On a post front I like to sight the gun in to where the bulĺet strikes right on top of the post.

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I think that's what my problem is . I fight it too much . For example when I shoot really fast . Il get a really good three shot group. Then when I take my sweet time to make an accurate shot , I wont hit a 20 inch target . Doesn't make any sense to me . How am I supposed to go hunting if I can't take time to shoot... I'm surely not going to rapid fire on a deer. :/

[Kev18]

Try casting with soft lead without beagling, use soft lube like LLA, and use Unique to get that BP like "bump up" on the bullet base.
A Ruger Vaquero 44-40 with .426" cyl throats and a .430" barrel taught me so.

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Il try unique . I've been told smokeless powder doesn't bump up bullets. I'm not to good with powders . I now reload with 3031. Will unique have low pressures? I need to keep it under 1500 fps. And where could I get load data for my cartridge?

[EDG]

Just turn your brass if you need a smaller neck.
Once a friend had a Remington Hepburn in 40-70 Sharps Straight with the paper patch chamber. When loaded with .410 grease groove bullets the chamber required .003 thick case necks. The foil like necks just crushed when bullets were seated. He had a long skinny boring bar made and removed his barrel. I bored the neck out to give .004 clearance over his brass. The modified rifle was exceptionally accurate.

[zymguy]

The thickness of the brass around the neck is 0.008. I just went to measure it again. Im using starline brass and people say it is thick. I dont know how thick brass should be?

Starline doesnt sell 48-82, what brass are you using ?

[Kev18]

Starline doesnt sell 48-82, what brass are you using ?

45-90. I ordered cartridges from buffalo arms at least 6 boxes , and got more made from gad customs . All of them used starline brass . Its just a 45-90 trimmed a bit and necked down. Although I would really like to have some stamped 40-82 cases . Might order from grafs one day .
I have original cartridges but those are really rare and expensive so I dorn feel like shooting and reloading them.

[indian joe]

45-90. I ordered cartridges from buffalo arms at least 6 boxes , and got more made from gad customs . All of them used starline brass . Its just a 45-90 trimmed a bit and necked down. Although I would really like to have some stamped 40-82 cases . Might order from grafs one day .
I have original cartridges but those are really rare and expensive so I dorn feel like shooting and reloading them.

Kev
Starline brass - necked down - boolit a little fat - maybe crimp a bit too severe - little stuff adds up
I just shot my sons 38/40 this morning and had a similar problem as you - its a 73 rebarreled - chamber is pretty neat - starline brass - booits shot as cast - 4 out of ten tight to chamber - upon examining this it was straight down to overdoing the crimp - could see that little swelling about 2mm worth just below the crimp just like on your rounds.
I have the same problem with my 76 Uberti using reformed 348 cases - neck is a little fat - chamber is neat - it likes a fattish boolit (459.5) - there is NOTHING to spare up there at all - I made a die for the 76 and use that after the crimping operation - it squishes about a tenth inch of the case just a touch - just enough to allow easy chambering.
If you switched to blackpowder or a duplex load in your 86 that would do away with the need for a heavy crimp - I would consider having a die made to gently swage just the area causing the problem - would make that myself here - make a 7/8 thread blank, bore it 13/32 - by time you polish that out smooth enough to work your brass is gonna be awful close to correct size for OD of the case neck - and the polishing will leave a tiny taper at the mouth - load em - crimp em - put em back through that neck swage die till they JUST chamber comfortably - thats been my process for the 45-75 Uberti and works well.

[Kev18]

I've been shooting all day yesterday. I probably shot well over 50 rounds . I kept all the brass untouched, to measure the diameter inside the neck . So far all the cartridges I shot were passed through the sizing die to "taper" crimp them. The chambered and ejected fine so far. Il need a way to seat the bullet without crimping so I could put it in the sizing die.
Il also need to experiment with the winchester reloading tool. It was made for 40-82 in 1884. So it must not crimp a lot of it was made for the single shot rifles?
Anyways, I'm glad we're making progress here ! Thanks for all the consistent help.

[garandsrus]

Il need a way to seat the bullet without crimping so I could put it in the sizing die.

The statement you wrote shows that you don’t understand the seating die and how it works. Please re-read what I and others have written about adjusting the seating die. It is designed to seat the bullet and optionally crimp the case mouth. YOUR SEATING DIE IS NOT ADJUSTED PROPERLY! It needs to be unscrewed a couple turns.

The sizing die is probably just fixing the problem you created with an improperly adjusted seating die. We can talk if this is confusing. Send me a PM with your phone number and I will call you.

Here is a video from Hornady that shows the process of setting up a seating die without crimping the round: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4l5qM6...fauxfullscreen

If you want to remove the case bell or add some crimp, simply screw the die in 1/4 turn and see what the result is. You may do this a couple times. Make sure you have unscrewed the seating stem so that the bullet is not being pushed deeper in the case.
Were the loads accurate? Any leading in the barrel?

[Kev18]

The statement you wrote shows that you don’t understand the seating die and how it works. Please re-read what I and others have written about adjusting the seating die. It is designed to seat the bullet and optionally crimp the case mouth. YOUR SEATING DIE IS NOT ADJUSTED PROPERLY! It needs to be unscrewed a couple turns.

The sizing die is probably just fixing the problem you created with an improperly adjusted seating die. We can talk if this is confusing. Send me a PM with your phone number and I will call you.

Here is a video from Hornady that shows the process of setting up a seating die without crimping the round: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4l5qM6...fauxfullscreen

If you want to remove the case bell or add some crimp, simply screw the die in 1/4 turn and see what the result is. You may do this a couple times. Make sure you have unscrewed the seating stem so that the bullet is not being pushed deeper in the case.
Were the loads accurate? Any leading in the barrel?

I know I can seat a bullet without crimping, I've done it plenty times. Il just need to do a taper crimp or light crimp. I did a couple light crimps some time ago, but just by pushing the cartridges in the loading gate, the bullets would fall inside the case.

And honestly its hard to tell how accurate the loads are . Im still trying t oget used to my peep sight on the rifle. My whole life I have shot with buckhorn style sights. Il aim down the tang sight and miss everything. Then ten seconds later il load up three more shots and do a one inch group. I have trouble finding what the right sight picture should be for the peep sight. Should I put my face up close and only see the top of the sight blade? The whole sight blade? The whole front sight? The whole front sight and the barrel?
Iv'e been told peeps are super accurate sights so I bought a Lyman, I have yet to see the accuracy even after a year.

[country gent]

Kev 18, sizing 45-90 down to 40 - 82 will thicken necks in 2 ways. 1) as you go down the case length wall thickness get thicker. 2) sizing down the added brass makes necks thicker. So your 45-90 with ,.008-.009 neck wall is probably becoming .009-.010 thru sizing down from 45-40 cal and another .001 or 2 for the shortening. I would go back to the original mould unbeagled and cast from a soft alloy load in the 1250-1300 fps range you will probably be surprised.

How are you sizing this brass down from 45-90 to 40-82 ? taking a 45-70 down to 40-65 takes some pretty good leverage and force to do in 1 pass. This is do to the full body taper and size reduction both.

For a make shift taper crimp die try a 10mm auto sizing die, set it too just touch the case mouth with the ram raised and adjust down for the desired crimp needed. For this you only need the die body no decapper or rods. Just the die body. The 40 S&W and 10mm use a .401 dia bullet and the tapers pistol case in these dies the tapered case body area becomes your taper crimp die. Adjust down 1/8-1/4 turn at a time from touch on case mouth

[Kev18]

Kev 18, sizing 45-90 down to 40 - 82 will thicken necks in 2 ways. 1) as you go down the case length wall thickness get thicker. 2) sizing down the added brass makes necks thicker. So your 45-90 with ,.008-.009 neck wall is probably becoming .009-.010 thru sizing down from 45-40 cal and another .001 or 2 for the shortening. I would go back to the original mould unbeagled and cast from a soft alloy load in the 1250-1300 fps range you will probably be surprised.

How are you sizing this brass down from 45-90 to 40-82 ? taking a 45-70 down to 40-65 takes some pretty good leverage and force to do in 1 pass. This is do to the full body taper and size reduction both.

For a make shift taper crimp die try a 10mm auto sizing die, set it too just touch the case mouth with the ram raised and adjust down for the desired crimp needed. For this you only need the die body no decapper or rods. Just the die body. The 40 S&W and 10mm use a .401 dia bullet and the tapers pistol case in these dies the tapered case body area becomes your taper crimp die. Adjust down 1/8-1/4 turn at a time from touch on case mouth

I didnt do any of the case work myself. All my cases are from loaded cartridges I bought from buffalo arms or GAD customs.
And all my bullets that I cast are pure lead. (old lead pipes) I only started experimenting with wheel weights this month.
I reload with 34 grains of 3031 to get 1495 fps. A user in this thread mentioned using Unique to Bump up the bullet like Black powder. My issue is where would I get load data for my rifle/caliber? My loads need to be under 1500fps so I dont fry my barrel. With low pressures also... Any suggestions?

[garandsrus]

I know I can seat a bullet without crimping, I've done it plenty times. Il just need to do a taper crimp or light crimp. I did a couple light crimps some time ago, but just by pushing the cartridges in the loading gate, the bullets would fall inside the case.

Ok. You asked how to seat the bullets without a crimp.

By the way, the light crimps you mentioned where the bullet easily slid into the case were not due to a light crimp. They were more than likely insufficient case neck tension due to the sizing die not resizing the cases enough to create case neck tension. Could also be undersize bullets. The crimp alone doesnt hold the bullet in the case.

Some people shoot single shots with no neck tension but it’s not commonly done with any other action types that I know of.

Good luck....

[snowwolfe]

Is your rifle a reproduction Winchester 1886? Even though you might have the issue fixed suggest you have a gunsmith examine the rifle for a short throat. Trying to chamber a long bullet in a short throated chamber could continue you to have issues down the road.

[uscra112]

I would also check your chamber diameter from a cast. Some old guns have tight-necked chambers combined with large groove diameters, which prevent loading a bullet of large enough diameter to fit the barrel.

Those guns were intended for paper-patched boolits. The boolits were dead soft lead, and with the patch in place were smaller than groove diameter. This enabled them to fit into a fouled throat easily. On firing they would bump up to fill the grooves. Standard practice for the Mauser 71 and 71/84 military rifles, and I've read also for Sharps rifles in the period. I've pulled down enough original Mauser paper-patched ammo to know that this is indeed the case. Shooting naked boolits in these rifles is always a problem, because the naked boolit has to be bigger than the patched boolits were.

PROPER solution is to read up on paper patching, cast some boolits of the correct diameter and alloy, patch them, load them, and shoot them. You'll be pleasantly surprised, if not amazed.

BTW if Starline is shipping brass with neck walls thicker than maybe .008" at the mouth, this will be an issue also. Brass from the 1880s tended to be very thin there, compared to what we expect to see today. So it's a good bet that you'll have to thin the necks on the brass no matter what boolit you are using.

[Kev18]

Ok. You asked how to seat the bullets without a crimp.

By the way, the light crimps you mentioned where the bullet easily slid into the case were not due to a light crimp. They were more than likely insufficient case neck tension due to the sizing die not resizing the cases enough to create case neck tension. Could also be undersize bullets. The crimp alone doesnt hold the bullet in the case.

Some people shoot single shots with no neck tension but it’s not commonly done with any other action types that I know of.

Good luck....

Well I try as much as possible to not run my cases through the sizing die. I have been told that it really shortens the life of the cases?

[Kev18]

Is your rifle a reproduction Winchester 1886? Even though you might have the issue fixed suggest you have a gunsmith examine the rifle for a short throat. Trying to chamber a long bullet in a short throated chamber could continue you to have issues down the road.

Not a repro. It was made in 1889.