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Thread: Why am I having trouble chambering cartridges in my 1886?

  1. #81
    Boolit Buddy
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    The smokeless doesn't get "mixed" with the black. It is put in first then the black is put on top. Has to be filled at least up to the bullet base so it doesn't get mixed. A little compression is advisable.
    The only amendment the Democrats support is the 5th.

  2. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kev18 View Post
    Thanks, it is abit confusing . I have pyrodex and goex. True black powder is hard to find. I used to only reload with that but my bore isn't new. It has pits. I was told to not use black because it gets stuck in all the pits. And the cleaning process takes forever.
    I would also like to know how to identify smokeless powder , i have no idea what all the numbers even mean. I thought you weren't supposed to mix smokeless and BP?
    Kev
    I shoot lever guns with black powder regular - the cleaning process is so easy its kind of a joke - takes me all of five minutes. I made a wood cleaning cradle so I can rest the rifle in upside down and a flush bottle with a plastic spout (made from a small coke bottle) - cleaning rod with an appropriate sized jag and some flannelette patches. Cleaning a blackpowder gun is several orders of magnitude easier than cleaning a smokeless gun - major difference is you cant put the blackpowder gun away dirty - but the actual cleanup is a snap.
    I have no idea on smokeless numbers meanings either - much of it goes back to military batching I think - each company has a different set of numbers - some go in sequence - some dont - as far as I can see there is not a system as such - and trying to learn to identify them visually could easily lead to a hospital attendance.
    Only way to be sure with smokeless is buy a new can , keep it in the original container with the make and number on it .
    Duplex loads - experimenting over many years has given anecdotal evidence that IMR 4227 does well as a duplex (starter) for blackpowder cartridges - common use is 3 grains in smaller cases (pistol calibre blackpowder rounds like 44/40) and 5 grains in larger rifle cases 45/70 etc - the smokeless is put in the empty case at the base - then without disturbing or mixing at all the case is filled with blackpowder and compressed as you would normally. Its not done for the purpose of increasing velocity only to ensure a cleaner burn and reduce fouling buildup from the blackpowder charge. It works really well for that purpose - there are a couple of others that work but IMR 4227 is the go to smokeless for duplex loading under black.

    Switching to blackpowder is maybe a fix for some of the hassles you are having with oversized/ bulging cases - fat boolits or whatever it is - But I would think this could be cured by using the full length size die to just swage enough of the case to allow it to chamber - I have done that on more than one occasion with my 38/40 - 45/70 - and a 1876 Uberti - all three have very close chambers and allow no margin for error at all with reloaded ammo - I shoot cast boolits one or two thousands over size - brass is a little thick in the neck (starline 38/40 and the Uberti takes shortened, reformed 348 Brass) --- so I get what your problem is .....i would just love to get my hands on a decent condition 1886 in 40/82
    Last edited by indian joe; 07-10-2018 at 12:05 PM.

  3. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by indian joe View Post
    Kev
    I shoot lever guns with black powder regular - the cleaning process is so easy its kind of a joke - takes me all of five minutes. I made a wood cleaning cradle so I can rest the rifle in upside down and a flush bottle with a plastic spout (made from a small coke bottle) - cleaning rod with an appropriate sized jag and some flannelette patches. Cleaning a blackpowder gun is several orders of magnitude easier than cleaning a smokeless gun - major difference is you cant put the blackpowder gun away dirty - but the actual cleanup is a snap.
    I have no idea on smokeless numbers meanings either - much of it goes back to military batching I think - each company has a different set of numbers - some go in sequence - some dont - as far as I can see there is not a system as such - and trying to learn to identify them visually could easily lead to a hospital attendance.
    Only way to be sure with smokeless is buy a new can , keep it in the original container with the make and number on it .
    Duplex loads - experimenting over many years has given anecdotal evidence that IMR 4227 does well as a duplex (starter) for blackpowder cartridges - common use is 3 grains in smaller cases (pistol calibre blackpowder rounds like 44/40) and 5 grains in larger rifle cases 45/70 etc - the smokeless is put in the empty case at the base - then without disturbing or mixing at all the case is filled with blackpowder and compressed as you would normally. Its not done for the purpose of increasing velocity only to ensure a cleaner burn and reduce fouling buildup from the blackpowder charge. It works really well for that purpose - there are a couple of others that work but IMR 4227 is the go to smokeless for duplex loading under black.

    Switching to blackpowder is maybe a fix for some of the hassles you are having with oversized/ bulging cases - fat boolits or whatever it is - But I would think this could be cured by using the full length size die to just swage enough of the case to allow it to chamber - I have done that on more than one occasion with my 38/40 - 45/70 - and a 1876 Uberti - all three have very close chambers and allow no margin for error at all with reloaded ammo - I shoot cast boolits one or two thousands over size - brass is a little thick in the neck (starline 38/40 and the Uberti takes shortened, reformed 348 Brass) --- so I get what your problem is .....i would just love to get my hands on a decent condition 1886 in 40/82
    Thanks for all the info. Im doing all of this because I would like to go hunting this year for the first time. My grandpa said he might want to come too. He got a heart surgery years ago for a clogged artery so he cant really walk long distances or stay outside when Its really hot. He always says he misses hunting. He hunted his whole life, but now he's getting older, in the late 70's. He said he wants deer meat to put in the sausages he makes every year, but no one in the family is a good enough hunter to catch a big buck so he keeps saying he needs to get bnack out there again and show us how its done!
    Long story short, I want my 1886 to be as accurate as possible. So far I really appreciate all the help im getting. Thanks!

  4. #84
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    I use the same load of IMR 3031 in my 1886, made in 1889 too. But I have a smaller bore diameter then you do. I had my chamber polished bright & I spent MANY HOURS lapping my bore. Unfortunately that Gunsmith & CUSTOM Caster have both passed on. With their guidance I managed to master my RIFLE.

    The RIFLE TAPER CRIMP DIES are no longer cataloged by LYMAN.

    I took the 80 .45-90 starline I hadn't used and sold them to a guy that had a 1886 in .45-90. Interesting enough PMC made a run of .45-90 in the mid 1990's. He had trouble with thick case necks. But you could get a set-up to ream .45cal Rifle necks for a reasonable price, at least back then.

    I wish I could could offer any kind of worth while help, sorry.
    Happiness is a Warm GUN & more ammo to shoot in it.

  5. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by Walks View Post
    I use the same load of IMR 3031 in my 1886, made in 1889 too. But I have a smaller bore diameter then you do. I had my chamber polished bright & I spent MANY HOURS lapping my bore. Unfortunately that Gunsmith & CUSTOM Caster have both passed on. With their guidance I managed to master my RIFLE.

    The RIFLE TAPER CRIMP DIES are no longer cataloged by LYMAN.

    I took the 80 .45-90 starline I hadn't used and sold them to a guy that had a 1886 in .45-90. Interesting enough PMC made a run of .45-90 in the mid 1990's. He had trouble with thick case necks. But you could get a set-up to ream .45cal Rifle necks for a reasonable price, at least back then.

    I wish I could could offer any kind of worth while help, sorry.
    How did you improve the bore? Mine is pretty pitted.

  6. #86
    Boolit Master Walks's Avatar
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    I used J-B Bore Cleaner. I twisted some four ought (0000) steel wool around a .40cal fiber brush & coated it with the J-B. Ten passes & pull off the old steel wool & replace it with fresh & more J-B. Between passes I ran 3 patches soaked in KROIL OIL. I wore out 9 brushes & 4 pads of steel wool. Almost a full jar of J-B & 2 cans of KROIL OIL. I stopped counting the passes with the brush about 2000. That RIFLE sat on my bench for 3 months. Ten passes before work, twenty passes after dinner, twenty passes before bed. It has some bright spots, but it's mainly dark & there are still some pits. After about 20rds accuracy starts to fall off. I clean the same way but with the newer J-B BORE BRITE. Not as abrasive.

    I wouldn't even think about a project like that today. Did this all before I got busted up. And I don't know of any Competent Gunsmiths in my area that will work on old rifle. Got a GREAT handgun only Smith.
    Happiness is a Warm GUN & more ammo to shoot in it.

  7. #87
    Boolit Buddy Kev18's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Walks View Post
    I used J-B Bore Cleaner. I twisted some four ought (0000) steel wool around a .40cal fiber brush & coated it with the J-B. Ten passes & pull off the old steel wool & replace it with fresh & more J-B. Between passes I ran 3 patches soaked in KROIL OIL. I wore out 9 brushes & 4 pads of steel wool. Almost a full jar of J-B & 2 cans of KROIL OIL. I stopped counting the passes with the brush about 2000. That RIFLE sat on my bench for 3 months. Ten passes before work, twenty passes after dinner, twenty passes before bed. It has some bright spots, but it's mainly dark & there are still some pits. After about 20rds accuracy starts to fall off. I clean the same way but with the newer J-B BORE BRITE. Not as abrasive.

    I wouldn't even think about a project like that today. Did this all before I got busted up. And I don't know of any Competent Gunsmiths in my area that will work on old rifle. Got a GREAT handgun only Smith.
    That didnt damage or dull out the rifling? I Imagine it would be like buffing compound to polish metal?

  8. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kev18 View Post
    That didnt damage or dull out the rifling? I Imagine it would be like buffing compound to polish metal?
    Kev
    I have done similar to what Walks describes - took an old brass brush and wrapped steel wool around as tight as I could get it in the bore - soaked it in "Brasso" ----another time I used jewellers rouge on the steel wool - didnt take as many passes as Walks - maybe two sessions of half an hour going at it as hard as I could. They come up mirror shiny even with the deeper pitting in there still.

  9. #89
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    Another thing you might try, is to not seat your boolit so deep and try a regular roll crimp in the top of the top grease groove. Not seating the boolit so deep might help with the case bulge too.

  10. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockrat View Post
    Another thing you might try, is to not seat your boolit so deep and try a regular roll crimp in the top of the top grease groove. Not seating the boolit so deep might help with the case bulge too.
    Already tried that, dosent seem to work to well. I feel like the tip of the bullet tries to enter the rifling.

  11. #91
    Boolit Buddy Kev18's Avatar
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    Ok, so I also tried something new when I got home from work. I reloaded 18 rounds with the boolits in the pictures I posted. And today, I beagled my mold more. Added more aluminium tape, did two test boolits and they dropped at around .413 and .415. I ran them through a .410 resizer and reloaded cartridges. They still chambered fine. So il reload a good number of those and test out the difference of accuracy.

  12. #92
    Boolit Master Walks's Avatar
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    Kev,
    My bore had the raised part of the pits ground down, it also rounded the edges of the lands a tiny bit. I'm not really sure about that because it was hard to tell the lands from the grooves when I started.
    Now I will keep the first 3rds into 3" at 100yds from the bench. And I can hit a 12" gong off hand at 100yds 4 out of 5 times for the first 15-20 shot's. After that It's cleaning time.
    Good Luck.
    Happiness is a Warm GUN & more ammo to shoot in it.

  13. #93
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    I know there are a lot of guys on here that don't like the Lee Factory Crimp die but I would give it a try. I don't use it on all the calibers I have but it is convenient at times and it won't bulge the case. They are very reasonably priced. From looking at your picture it looks to me like the boolit is pushed up to tight when the crimp is applied and bulging the case. Like others have said size your boolits a little smaller. You probably won't see much difference in accuracy .

  14. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by 45-70 Chevroner View Post
    I know there are a lot of guys on here that don't like the Lee Factory Crimp die but I would give it a try. I don't use it on all the calibers I have but it is convenient at times and it won't bulge the case. They are very reasonably priced. From looking at your picture it looks to me like the boolit is pushed up to tight when the crimp is applied and bulging the case. Like others have said size your boolits a little smaller. You probably won't see much difference in accuracy .
    I cant size my bullets smaller. I actually just made a big batch of larger boolits. Im hopefully going to go test it out tomorrow. Big boolit, taper crimp, no problem.. so far.

  15. #95
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    Kev,
    You are where I was in 2008. My 40-82 was made in 1887 and the bore is a .409 just as yours is. I went through the .406 cast bullets keyholing at 50 yards and .406 Jacketed bullets shooting a 4-5" group at 50 yards. I spent two years testing different things until I finally figured this puzzle out.


    The problem is the Starline brass plus the bullet is too big for the chamber. PERIOD! If you measure a loaded cartridge without doing anything other than what you originally did, ie. resize and trim the 45-90 brass to 40-82, expand the brass, load powder, insert a .410 bullet and run it through the crimp die, the diameter of the brass and bullet will be about .432-.434 if my memory serves me correctly. The maximum diameter that will go into my 40-82 chamber is .430. I'll go out on a limb and say that yours will be about that size too.


    There are two options to solve this as have been discussed earlier in this thread. Neck reaming and neck turning. Reaming requires a reamer sized for this particular application to remove brass from the inside of the case. I don't know what that measurement is because I didn't try it due to cost. To turn the outside of the case, there is a Forester outside neck turning tool you can buy for around $70, or a lock and load neck turning tool for $110, or you can buy a Lee three jaw chuck for $14 and get the spinner for another $4 and a bastard file for $5 and turn the cases down with this setup in your electric drill.


    I opted for the latter. The three jaw chuck securely holds the LOADED cartridge while you turn it in the drill and use the file to carefully turn the brass down to .429 to .430. You only have to take brass off where the bullet is.

    I test each turned cartridge in my rifle to make sure that it chambers correctly. If its a little tight, I take off another thousandth. You do this one time and the cases will chamber for many reloadings. Sometimes the brass flows a bit and you will have to touch up cases that get too thick again. I have gotten up to 16 reloads out of one case so far. After 10 reloads, I recommend that you anneal the cases because the brass that is crimped will harden and break off after 14 loads or so. This pic is of my reloads with two types of .410 bullets that I have used. The cases have been turned.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	40-82 Cartridges 1.jpg 
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Size:	50.3 KB 
ID:	223908

    I switched to a tang sight too. To use a peep sight, look through the hole in the rear sight and put the top of the front sight where you want to hit. You will see the whole front sight when you look through the sight, but your eye will automatically center the top of that sight in the middle of the peep because that is where the image is brightest and most clear. Trust your eyes!


    The only other thing that I'll say is that you will want to use some type of filler on top of the smokeless powder. I use coarsely ground corn meal, other materials used are cream of wheat, kapok and TP. Use whatever your gun prefers. The additional length of the 40-82 case over the 45-70 and 40-65 is just enough to allow the powder to flatten out and get uneven ignition without the fillers, which really screws accuracy.

    Keep your velocity around 1500 fps to mimic black powder load pressures. My preferred powders are 5744 and Reloader 7. (Per the manufacturer, 5744 isn't supposed to need fillers, but accuracy is greatly improved with the use of fillers in the 40-82.) This is a pic of a load with and without filler. Shot at 85 yards with a load of 5744. The hole in the lower right was a flyer from a different target.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	100_1433.jpg 
Views:	4 
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ID:	223907

    The 40-82 is the most difficult round to reload with smokeless that I have run across. I can attest that the methods I described here will solve your issues with this round. Once you get used to the tang sight, you should have a great rifle to hunt with.


    This is a 100 yard target I shot with my rifle. It is equipped with a Marbles tang sight and the group was shot using a Lead Sled. The upper 5 shots measure 1.26" but it measures 2.5" with the flyer. I never dreamed that I would ever get that kind of accuracy out of this old rifle when I started out in 2008!

    Enjoy the journey!


    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	40-82 Best Group 2.5 inches at 100 yards.jpg 
Views:	9 
Size:	21.0 KB 
ID:	223899
    Last edited by Geobru; 07-19-2018 at 09:51 AM.

  16. #96
    Boolit Buddy Kev18's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geobru View Post
    Kev,
    You are where I was in 2008. My 40-82 was made in 1887 and the bore is a .409 just as yours is. I went through the .406 cast bullets keyholing at 50 yards and .406 Jacketed bullets shooting a 4-5" group at 50 yards. I spent two years testing different things until I finally figured this puzzle out.


    The problem is the Starline brass plus the bullet is too big for the chamber. PERIOD! If you measure a loaded cartridge without doing anything other than what you originally did, ie. resize and trim the 45-90 brass to 40-82, expand the brass, load powder, insert a .410 bullet and run it through the crimp die, the diameter of the brass and bullet will be about .432-.434 if my memory serves me correctly. The maximum diameter that will go into my 40-82 chamber is .430. I'll go out on a limb and say that yours will be about that size too.


    There are two options to solve this as have been discussed earlier in this thread. Neck reaming and neck turning. Reaming requires a reamer sized for this particular application to remove brass from the inside of the case. I don't know what that measurement is because I didn't try it due to cost. To turn the outside of the case, there is a Forester outside neck turning tool you can buy for around $70, or a lock and load neck turning tool for $110, or you can buy a Lee three jaw chuck for $14 and get the spinner for another $4 and a bastard file for $5 and turn the cases down with this setup in your electric drill.


    I opted for the latter. The three jaw chuck securely holds the LOADED cartridge while you turn it in the drill and use the file to carefully turn the brass down to .429 to .430. You only have to take brass off where the bullet is.

    I test each turned cartridge in my rifle to make sure that it chambers correctly. If its a little tight, I take off another thousandth. You do this one time and the cases will chamber for many reloadings. Sometimes the brass flows a bit and you will have to touch up cases that get too thick again. I have gotten up to 16 reloads out of one case so far. After 10 reloads, I recommend that you anneal the cases because the brass that is crimped will harden and break off after 14 loads or so. This pic is of my reloads with two types of .410 bullets that I have used. The cases have been turned.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	40-82 Cartridges 1.jpg 
Views:	6 
Size:	50.3 KB 
ID:	223908

    I switched to a tang sight too. To use a peep sight, look through the hole in the rear sight and put the top of the front sight where you want to hit. You will see the whole front sight when you look through the sight, but your eye will automatically center the top of that sight in the middle of the peep because that is where the image is brightest and most clear. Trust your eyes!


    The only other thing that I'll say is that you will want to use some type of filler on top of the smokeless powder. I use coarsely ground corn meal, other materials used are cream of wheat, kapok and TP. Use whatever your gun prefers. The additional length of the 40-82 case over the 45-70 and 40-65 is just enough to allow the powder to flatten out and get uneven ignition without the fillers, which really screws accuracy.

    Keep your velocity around 1500 fps to mimic black powder load pressures. My preferred powders are 5744 and Reloader 7. (Per the manufacturer, 5744 isn't supposed to need fillers, but accuracy is greatly improved with the use of fillers in the 40-82.) This is a pic of a load with and without filler. Shot at 85 yards with a load of 5744. The hole in the lower right was a flyer from a different target.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	100_1433.jpg 
Views:	4 
Size:	34.1 KB 
ID:	223907

    The 40-82 is the most difficult round to reload with smokeless that I have run across. I can attest that the methods I described here will solve your issues with this round. Once you get used to the tang sight, you should have a great rifle to hunt with.


    This is a 100 yard target I shot with my rifle. It is equipped with a Marbles tang sight and the group was shot using a Lead Sled. The upper 5 shots measure 1.26" but it measures 2.5" with the flyer. I never dreamed that I would ever get that kind of accuracy out of this old rifle when I started out in 2008!

    Enjoy the journey!


    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	40-82 Best Group 2.5 inches at 100 yards.jpg 
Views:	9 
Size:	21.0 KB 
ID:	223899
    Hey, im pretty sure you sent me alot of data on 40-82 last year I think? im not sure if you'll see this but I tried sending you a pm but I had trouble sending it.Il definitely try some of the stuff you suggested. thanks!

  17. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kev18 View Post
    Hey, im pretty sure you sent me alot of data on 40-82 last year I think? im not sure if you'll see this but I tried sending you a pm but I had trouble sending it.Il definitely try some of the stuff you suggested. thanks!

    Yea that was me.

    Out of curiosity, what is the outside diameter of your cartridges over the base of the bullet?

  18. #98
    Boolit Buddy Kev18's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geobru View Post
    Yea that was me.

    Out of curiosity, what is the outside diameter of your cartridges over the base of the bullet?
    .425 is my biggest diameter in the neck. I use starline brass, 3031,pillow material or my dogs fur rolled up in a ball as a filler, with cast bullets in a beagled mold.What bullets did you use in your loads? Did you cast them yourself or buy them?

  19. #99
    Boolit Buddy Kev18's Avatar
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    A little unrelated to the thread but anyone know what the original sight was on 1886's? What type of rear sight did they come out of the factory with. I put a peep on mine and added the sight that was with the rifle at the time of purchase.I read the standard models came out with buckhorns (semi buckhorns?) and that the other models/custom orders had different sights added, like peep or ladder? Hers a pic of what I have now.

  20. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kev18 View Post
    .425 is my biggest diameter in the neck. I use starline brass, 3031,pillow material or my dogs fur rolled up in a ball as a filler, with cast bullets in a beagled mold.What bullets did you use in your loads? Did you cast them yourself or buy them?
    Is this .425 after you ran the loaded round in the sizing die to reduce the diameter?

    I bought bullets from Bullshop on line. I'm set up for casting my own now, but have some more to use first.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check