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Thread: Rifle Vs 12 Gauge For "Discouraging" Large Bears

  1. #41
    Boolit Master Tripplebeards's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ballistics in Scotland View Post
    A friend of mine stopped the charge of a wild boar in Turkey at six feet, with his 9x56 Mannlicher-Schoenauer. It wasn't very big, except that in those circumstances they are all big. My theory is that it was just trying to escape, and if he had been bow-legged he needn't have bothered.

    What we are discussing here isn't a charge from a wounded animal. But I am pretty well convinced by the big-game hunters who say a wounded animal will dash in a random direction. It isn't looking for payback at all, but if that happens by chance to be your direction, you take the fall. Still, a bear is probably a whole lot more intelligent and vengeful than lions or tigers. If any animal can form the sudden ambition to do away with you, that would be the one.
    I agree, I've witnessed on two occations hunters standing to close get knocked off their feet by black bear and not get hurt. Both bear were treed with hounds, shot and dropped about 20/30 yards straight down, got up and ran in what direction they were facing. Both hunters happened to be In their path and were steamrollered while the bear just kept on trucking. One bear was 286lbs and the other was around a 180 lbs.
    Last edited by Tripplebeards; 07-03-2018 at 09:01 PM.

  2. #42
    Boolit Man
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    Quote Originally Posted by longbow View Post
    A couple of 0.690" RB's will leave a mark for sure (on both ends!). Do you have load data or just using heavy payload birdshot data?

    I have one recipe from Shotgun World for double 0.690" RB but I haven't tried it. I looked up some similar payload recipes and it seems sane but...

    I have been toying with some double ball loads myself but was thinking more like 0.600" or 0.610". It seems the Tri-Ball is popular but I think there is a place for a double ball load as well. Maybe I'll getuit one day.

    Two big(ish) balls at 1200 FPS or so should provide some serious thumping power with not only significant weight but very large frontal area... and hard cast balls should penetrate pretty well.

    Longbow
    Just using some heavyweight shot data. The load is kinda in the bush, but I'm not all that concerned, .69 balls should have a lower coefficient of friction anyways, and the two of them don't quite weigh 2.25 oz. The load I tested is as follows: Once fired Winchester steel Super X hull, 32gr of Longshot, a Cheddite Primer, a Claybuster clone of the WAA12 wad, a .75"x.03" over powder card, and the bottom half of a fired Claybuster wad. I used the bottom of the old wad as a cup to center the second ball on top of the first.

    This load crony'd at 1117 fps. The 2.25oz shot load I used as data produces 1150 fps according to Hodgdon. Mind you, this wasn't an average, it was one shot, so it could go either way. I just don't have enough balls or lead to do 10 shot samples. I was also curious to see how I'd feel about followup shots. My recoil formula says the load carries about 57 ft-lbs of recoil, about the same as my heavy goose loads. While I don't seem to notice the recoil hunting geese, pulling birds out of a flock is less about aiming, and more about feel, dropping a bear I daresay requires a little more precision. I've decided to opt for a single ball at 1600 fps instead. With only 60% of the recoil, I think my recovery time will improve.

  3. #43
    Boolit Master

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    Never mind the handloads - plenty of good 1.25 ounce magnum slugs out there for this job.

    The .300 is simply the wrong tool; a 500 yard elk rifle where what you need is a trench gun.
    WWJMBD?

    "I'M MELLLLLLLLLLTING!" - Elphaba

  4. #44
    Boolit Master
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    I wouldn't even consider the rifle. Not because of the caliber, but because a bolt action is only marginally faster than a break open single shot. You can put a lot of slugs downrange fast with a pump action, and like stated, a heavy Brenneke slug is the best tool for the job. I've never shot a bear with one, but you won't recover them in deer. They leave a gaping 1" hole all the way through an animal. I always preferred the standard Brenneke, although I've used the heavy field short magnum, as well as the black magic. The recoil of a 1 3/8 oz slug at 1500 fps is not something to be understated. The classic 1 ounce is more controllable.

  5. #45
    Boolit Man
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    I'm curious to know how this type of slug resists flattening the way a standard foster slug does. Those don't penetrate very deeply. My father used three on a calf moose in '84, he said it just kept getting back up. His cousin shot it with his Lee Enfield. He told me that when they cleaned them he recovered all three slugs, flattened, and never having penetrated much deeper than the ribs. My preference for the ball is based primarily around the fact that they penetrate like hell if they're hard cast. Bears have thick bones and skulls.

  6. #46
    Boolit Master
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    Brenneke's are a mostly solid slug of a harder alloy. They don't have a big hollow base or thin walls like a standard rifled slug. I've dug them out of dirt, and they ding up a bit, but do not flatten at all. I doubt you would recover one from an animal. I shot one deer that went through the front shoulder blade, and out the opposite side rear leg.

  7. #47
    Boolit Master
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    Be Prepared! You NEED at least one revolver at least a 500 S&W. A 10 ga shotgun. Preferably double barreled. A couple of flash bang grenades and a buddy following close behind with a 155mm self propelled.
    But seriously I was thinking of posting a survey about Bear. Asking a series of questions Like "Have you ever hunted Bear", "Have you ever seen a bear in the wild" "Have you ever been attacked by a bear. And all the stories that go with those questions.
    Personally I have never seen a bear in the wild. I live in central Wisconsin and up until about 20 years ago (I last hunted in 1983) bear were pretty scarce around here. The population has come back pretty strong since. Lots of people hunt them and quite a few people actually get them. So if I were to start hunting again I might hunt bear myself. It would be cool to hear about peoples bear stories.
    AKA hans.pcguy

  8. #48
    Boolit Master
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    The OP wanted thoughts about rifle vs shotgun, so even if I might want to carry a .44 mag loaded hot, just for the convenience of a handgun vs a long gun, I'm tossing my hat toward the 12 ga. roundball load. Shotguns can be shortened up to the point of easy carry and that is a factor. If your finest, most deadly tool is leaning against the "other" tree when you need it most, well ..you know what I mean. For decades, I was successful with store bought slugs hunting little east coast deer and ferreting out extra bad two legger's, but costs and the absence of issued ammo, had me searching for a good home made. I found my load and I'm sticking with it. Pure lead roundball driven at moderate to light speeds is all I could ever want. It is devastating. Whistles through 180 pound whitetail like the proverbial hot knife through butter. The only RB I've recovered, I dug out of the earthen embankment that was behind the standing deer. Fierce penetration & controllable recoil for second shots. As far as your likelihood of an encounter, it just takes one to ruin your day. My friend found out the hard way and is alive only because of his .41 mag and Life Flight. It was gruesome meeting with a Wyoming brown. Best of luck - stay safe.

    Ha! I just re-read my post and seem to need a clarification: "light speed" as in slow, not Capt. Kirk's warp speed.

  9. #49
    Boolit Master



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    Smile

    "As far as your likelihood of an encounter, it just takes one to ruin your day. My friend found out the hard way and is alive only because of his .41 mag and Life Flight. It was gruesome meeting with a Wyoming brown."

    How come you friend did not know that bears never do that and that carrying a gun is stupid because we have posts in this thread that say so? Listen to the posts that say no need for protection with a firearm in bear country. Seriously, like a boy scout, be prepared.
    "Had his shooting been as good as his running, he might have given a better account of himself."
    James. C. Henderson

  10. #50
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    I've been watching this thread. Not familiar with Canadian laws, I'm not sure if this is applicable.

    Seems a Mossberg Shockwave, or a Remington TAC 14 would be very handy carried in a short scabbard on the back. Without a shoulder stock, lighter loads would be preferred. As mentioned, a dead soft lead round ball pushed at moderate speeds will reduce recoil and give plenty of penetration.
    I've got a TAC 14, and hitting a silhouette target at 15 yards is easy from the hip with slugs.

  11. #51
    Boolit Master
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    Jerry was pre-scouting for elk season. He had a buddy with him otherwise he'd be dead. Said he never heard the bear at all. He caught the movement just a moment before contact.

  12. #52
    Boolit Master Tripplebeards's Avatar
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    If it were me I'd load the first shot with heavy shot of federal 00 buck and the rest slugs. The first shot for a "horseshoe and handgrenades" quick close encounters rush. If you get excited and flinch it's still going to get peppered with 44 mag sized holes.

  13. #53
    Boolit Master
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    You don't need any of this weaponry... What you need to do is take along an elderly fat guy that you can outrun. You can't outrun the bear.

  14. #54
    Boolit Master


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    I doubt the OP could carry a handgun anyway....talking about Canada....not the US.

    Another vote for the 12 ga. Better than any handgun anyway
    Don Verna

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  15. #55
    Boolit Master
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    Friend of mine in the Yukon successfully used the bag pipes on a grizzly that was hanging around his cabin. The bear never came back.

    A banjo might also work, but I will let someone else try it first.

  16. #56
    Boolit Master Texas by God's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buck Neck It View Post
    Friend of mine in the Yukon successfully used the bag pipes on a grizzly that was hanging around his cabin. The bear never came back.

    A banjo might also work, but I will let someone else try it first.
    A kazoo or a ukelele would keep me away.

    Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

  17. #57
    Boolit Master
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    That new Remlin 45-70 trapper with the 16.5 bbl & skinner aperture sights and ammo made with Woodleigh 405 grain Weldcore bullets over a stiff charge of one of the 4198s or IMR-3031 would be what I would be taking.
    Stewart is not far from Heider Alaska where I lived for a couple of years back in the 70s while working at the Granduc Mine on the other side of the border in Canada (dual US/CDN citizen).
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  18. #58
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by dverna View Post
    I doubt the OP could carry a handgun anyway....talking about Canada....not the US.

    Another vote for the 12 ga. Better than any handgun anyway
    A non-restricted 44 mag Mare’s Laig (Rossi or Chiappa) in a holster is as good as it gets in Canada without an ATC for a handgun (restricted) which requires a stack of paperwork.
    Firearms law in Canada is a federal deal and the current Liberal government is downright gunophobic.
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  19. #59
    Boolit Master Tripplebeards's Avatar
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    Just pack a squirt gun full of turpentine and sneak around the big bruin and give him a squirt in the rear. That bear won't stop running till he hits the next county.

  20. #60
    Boolit Master
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    A lot of hunters will interpret any game moving towards their general location as a 'charge' when was nor directed at attacking the hunter but merely fleeing. I recall one video showing some bow hunters being attacked by a group of pigs after they had killed one of the group. Their 'charge' was merely a bunch of pigs fleeing downhill in an attempt to escape. None of the pigs made any attempt to attack anyone nor did they turn towards the hunters as they bypassed them. To the contrary any change in the course of any of them was to go around the hunters.

    Have attacks ever happened? Probably so but I suspect many attacks only exist in the minds of the hunters. Similarly how many auto drivers would automatically jump to the conclusion that a 'close call' was a deliberate attempt when in reality most traffic victims are merely victims of circumstance and not deliberate intent.?

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check