RotoMetals2MidSouth Shooters SupplyInline FabricationWideners
Titan ReloadingLee PrecisionStainLess Steel MediaGraf & Sons

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 24

Thread: Help me understand accuracy and barrels

  1. #1
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Jan 2016
    Location
    Wisconsin
    Posts
    316

    Help me understand accuracy and barrels

    I know that hardcore accuracy freaks cut the chamber for their rifle to the 22 brand and type they plan to use. Most people test a bunch of brands to find which one their particular firearm likes. Regardless of which way you go the general principal is that fit between the ammo and the chamber matters a lot when you're trying to shoot competitively.

    At the same time a better rifle will get better accuracy out of low-grade ammo than a lower grade rifle. Even when it's not the preferred ammo, a CZ 455 will do better than a stock 10/22 with the same ammo.

    With that in mind I have 2 questions:

    1. When I was looking at aftermarket barrels for the 10/22 several of them state that they are for match grade ammo only. Some specifically state that the CCI stingers should not be used. In essence they're trading in versatility for accuracy. What are good options that will wring the most accuracy out of any ammo? I want good accuracy but I don't want to trade being an omnivore.

    2. More generally, in my head right now I have the idea that a better barrel will take you to 1-2 MOA with most ammo and that to get below 1MOA you're looking at specialization to the point where you have to feed the 22 good ammo. Is that an ok understanding or have I goofed somewhere?
    "There are no solutions there are only tradeoffs" ~ Thomas Sowell

  2. #2
    Boolit Master GhostHawk's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Location
    Fargo ND
    Posts
    4,440
    #1 I can't touch as I have never changed a barrel on my Ruger 10/22.

    #2 Yes any rifle is going to have ammo it prefers, and ammo it dislikes.
    My Ruger Mk III 22/45 pistols love the Federal auto match. I suspect it may not be as good at 100 yards as others. But inside 25 yards in my Rugers it shines.

    For my rifle if I want real tight groups it is CCI Mini mag hp's. It just likes them.
    My 10/22 was bought in 72 or 73, has the good walnut stock. Has all the original parts except mag release and a buffered bolt stop. I also did the dremel trick to the bolt hold open lever so you don't have to find that little thing anymore. Insert mag, jerk bolt handle, release, it goes closed ready for action.

    It is my experience that every rifle barrel is an individual, has its own likes and dislikes.
    Your job is to figure those out. Feed it what it likes.

    I used to use fired 12 ga hulls as targets in the winter time. Laid on their side. So you see the primer.

    Was no big deal to hit 10 for 10, and almost all hits would be touching some part of the primer.
    At 75 yards, over the hood of my truck. That was good enough for me. Although I might have a hard time doing it now, that is more about me than the rifle.

  3. #3
    Moderator

    ShooterAZ's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Flagstaff, AZ
    Posts
    4,129
    A caveat to all of this, is that you will see variations in the same type ammo just from different lot numbers. If you find a good lot, stock up on it. I have had good luck with CCI Standard Velocity. It's very consistent and shoots well in all my 22LR's. Yes, I can get tighter groups with Eley, but the CCI SV gives the high dollar 22LR a run for the money.

  4. #4
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    Tennessee
    Posts
    1,419
    #1 I tested stingers in several very accurate rifles in the late 70s. They shot about a "modified choke" pattern, never fooled with them again. That out of the way, stingers have a longer case and a chamber cut to work with them wont be optimal with normal ammo. Green Mountain makes a good accurate barrel that will shoot most anything fairly well, except stingers and the 60 gr subsonics. The match chambers will not generally eject a live round, and if you arent going to shoot 10$ a box target ammo its not worth the trouble. Note, with this setup you MUST always visually check that the chamber is empty, cycling the bolt is no validation!
    #2 correct. But, face .082 off the back of a std 10-22 barrel, put a shim in the wedge to make up for the length. Mount it ,bed it( they generally like some foreend pressure), and do a good trigger job. That setup will run very close to the aftermarket barrels, at least with good quality 5$ a box ammo. Adjust the headspace on the bolt and it becomes more consistnt with the bulk box junk. I have 3 Green Mountain barrels, one Volquartzen and one like i describe. They all shoot 1/2 inch +/- 1/8, for 5 at 50 with a 6x scope and Win subsonic hp( my chosen hunting ammo). Note all are walnut sporter stocks of various generations, plus a Charger ( 10 inch takeoff shortened .082, rifle scope)that will embarress rifles at 100 yards!
    A link of interest
    https://rifleshooter.com/2015/11/rug...uracy-upgrade/
    Last edited by rking22; 06-26-2018 at 11:06 AM.
    “You don’t practice until you get it right. You practice until you can’t get it wrong.” Jason Elam, All-Pro kicker, Denver Broncos

  5. #5
    Boolit Master

    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Location
    Northwest Ohio
    Posts
    8,900
    Chambering to a batch of ammo is common in smallbore 3 position and some others. In a 10-22 this can be done but if you get ammo with a thicker rim slam fires can result. The rifles chambered to ammo are normally bolt actions. I have seen rifles throated to a certain ammo also.

    On the 10-22 accurizing a better barrel with a standard saami match chamber, bedding, and a trigger job. There are a couple companies making barrel clamps with a recoil lug on them and these may improve accuracy thru improved bedding surfaces. Another thing to try is adjusting the mags spring tension to what the rifle likes.

    I have a modified 10-22. receiver is threaded for barrel, clamp ( clamp is secondary lock and helps to time barrel) lone walther barrel saami match chamber and barrel is 24" long. medium heavy to heavy contour. Barrel is bedded in and receiver floats. Thinking is the heavy barrel is much stiffer and stronger than the aluminum receiver. Trigger is tuned to 2 lbs. A lot of work went into this rifle in custom machining and trial and error. It is very accurate and at 50 yds with good ammo the first bullet hole isn't safe from the second bullet. Its interesting what the platform is capable of but again a lot of work and time.

  6. #6
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Jan 2016
    Location
    Wisconsin
    Posts
    316
    I appreciate the information. At the moment it's more trying for a general understanding of what realistic expectations are and where the line between "helps everything" to "you've got a specialized firearm that requires special ammo" is. I'm not currently seeking to upgrade my 10/22. It's going to stay pretty stock even with its less than ideal trigger.

    What's driving the question is my desire for a nice manual action 22. Ideally a toggle action but I'm not shelling out 4k for a real biathlon rifle. The Russian Biathlon Basics have been going up in price and the mags are scarce and expensive. The steyr RFR is cheaper but not much accuracy testing that I've seen and the magazines are a little expensive and only 10 rounds. The Volquarterson toggle action receiver takes standard 10/22 barrels, triggers, magazines and stocks. So as a long term project I might build up a straight pull 10/22. I'm trying to get a handle on 22 accuracy generally as background before I undertake that.
    "There are no solutions there are only tradeoffs" ~ Thomas Sowell

  7. #7
    Boolit Master

    Bent Ramrod's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Southern Arizona
    Posts
    3,171
    See if you can find a copy of The Art of Rimfire Accuracy by Bill Calfee. He builds winning BR-50 rifles and pistols, used to write a lot of articles in the old Precision Shooting/Accurate Rifle magazines, and put everything he learned on the subject into his book.

    I was struck by his assertion that he generally doesn’t specify a barrel length in the guns he builds. He buys the longest blanks from the best manufacturers and slugs them from each end, over and over. Says he can feel the slight increase in pressure needed as the bore constricts slightly, and after ascertaining the location by multiple tries, that’s where he cuts the barrel off to form the muzzle. The slight choke at that spot gives the maximum accuracy the barrel is capable of, whereas if he just chambered one end and cut the thing off at 24”, it might be merely “pretty accurate.”

    The fact that he’s the go-to guy for .22RF accuracy cranks would indicate that he knows something.

  8. #8
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Houston TX
    Posts
    750
    Lapping a rim fire barrel is common so as to make a small taper in the barrel. The smallest diameter of the taper is used for the muzzle end of the barrel. Bill Calfee came to a national BR-50 match at the Tomball Gun Club many years ago. He showed us how to push a 22 bullet removed from the case down a rim fire barrel to determine the tight and loose spots in the Rifle barrel bore.
    We were all learning how to put together BR-50 guns. We all learned a lot in about 15 minutes as Bill Calfee talked to us about rim fire accuracy.
    A few of us learned over time how to lap a barrel to achieve the small taper in the rifle bore.

    The ability to lap came over time and a few barrels we damaged as we learned to lap a rim fire barrel.

    The taper in the barrel helps all guns shooting lead bullets.

  9. #9
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    West Tennessee
    Posts
    751
    The thing that separates a sporter chamber from a target chamber is often how loose it is. IE, most sporter chambers are quite generous in girth and length to accommodate any ole 22lr you want to stuff in there from bulk pack to match target ammo. This also lets you run the gun very dirty, but accuracy suffers because there's usually a jump to the rifling, the round isn't centered to the bore from shot to shot, and the cause crimp isn't consistent from cartridge to cartridge. It'll sure chamber and fire the round to be minute of tin can at 50 yards. For a target chamber is basically shortened and tightened up so the bullet is centered to the bore and forced into the rifling when the bolt is cammed shut taking away the neck tension inconsistencies. This is why non target ammo will usually shoot better in a target chamber. Of course this isn't without a price. The gun needs more attention to cleaning, and usually a chambered round must be fired out instead of extracted. Move that concept to an auto loader and it gets fuzzy. Trade offs have to be made with tight chamber vs feeding to squeeze the best of both worlds into that platform. For instance, I have a 10/22 tricked out that shoots CCI SVHP very well, I prefer ELEY SSHP for hunting, but this chamber will fail to go into battery just enough times that all the hammer does when the trigger is pulled is finish seating the round. I have to drop the mag, open the bolt to recock the hammer, sometimes the round is extracted, most of the time not, reinsert the mag, and guess where the squirrel is heading by then! Needless to say, it gets the CCI ammo! Even with its preferred ammo, it will start acting a fool about every 50-100 rounds because it needs a good chamber cleaning. Lay several different brands, or even loadings within a brand, and you will see the is quite the difference in the driving bands on the bullets, then I think you can see how this all fits together.

    I hope this helps a little.

  10. #10
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    Eastern WY
    Posts
    624
    Book - The Art of Rimfire Accuracy by Bill Calfee (Amazon), more than you want to know about building accurate rimfire rifles, barrels, chambers, actions, ammunition fit. Tremendous information on barrels that can also be related to most any shooting.

  11. #11
    Boolit Buddy arcticap's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Central Connecticut
    Posts
    64
    I know a senior, 100 yard outdoor prone league competition shooter, who shoots among one of the best Anschutz model target rifles, with a very high power scope, and a barrel tuner, that's tuned in to fire what is among the very best Eley ammo, that he purchases in case lots, that is pre-tested and listed as having a specific velocity for that case of ammo before he orders it, because he knows exactly what narrow velocity range of that specific ammo that his rifle needs. The ammo distributor once sent him the wrong case of ammo and he had to send it back because it was off by a fractional number of feet per second from the case that he had ordered.
    An average person probably cannot ever be invited to tour the Anschutz barrel making department of their factory so as to not reveal any of their barrel manufacturing trade secrets.
    The expensive ammo is made at the slowest rate of production along with all of the other proprietary manufacturing processes involved with making it.
    All to have fun trying to win a match, or a season championship, that could be decided by a single X at 100 yards.
    Is his gun finicky? Yes.
    Is it among the best? Yes.
    Ammo? Check.
    Scope? Check.
    Can he shoot 1 MOA and win a league championship? He probably does shoot 1 MOA at times and one season he was the league champion.
    Sometimes the equipment can help one to beat another great shooter and other times another great shooter can beat the other's great equipment.
    But winning doesn't usually happen by accident.
    P.S. I wouldn't be surprised to learn that there was a very special employee in the Anschutz barrel making department who manually straightens out virtually every match grade barrel they produce using a special barrel straightening machine that relies on his own two eyes to pass the barrel through inspection. Are some barrels better & straighter than others?
    I suppose, but he's probably pretty good at doing his job!
    Last edited by arcticap; 07-05-2018 at 04:06 AM.

  12. #12
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Posts
    881
    the stingers and CCI mini mags IIRC also have a smidge longer case and different bullet profile that might squish into the chamber. Plus they are running 1600fps or so this might be enough to damage some semi autos?

    As for accuracy goes and what to expect. You need to start with a decent platform and at least good ammo.

    KIDD has a 1/2" at 50 guaranty with their barrels a email confirms they test with eley. My new barrel proofed out with CCI SV. I hit 20 1/2" dots for 20 shot in a row once I dialed in the scope. That's "AWESOME" for me. I have since failed to get past 14 since but im just missing that dot.
    then think what if any the manufactures standards are. Then you can go from there.

    I have some eley to try in my ruger soon. I splurged and picked up 500 rounds, My old 513t will get right near that moa mark with no wind with most "better" match ammo usually this means ammo at $12+ or more for 50

  13. #13
    Boolit Master Forrest r's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    NE Ohio
    Posts
    1,358
    [IMG][/IMG]

    Most aftermarket 10-22 bbl's use Bentz chambers. You'll see a lot of people use and recommend cci sv or wolf or sk standard+ ammo for their match grade 10-22 bbl's, cz's, savages, etc. CZ's have a european sporter chamber (the older/cheaper flobert & 64 actioned anschutz sporter rifles have the same chamber) that is 18mm long (b" measurement on the chart above). It just so happens a stinger case is 18mm long. If you take and measure 22lr ammo with a compareator tool you will find that as the price of the match grade ammo goes up. The oal of the end of the case to the front of the top drive band goes down.
    [IMG][/IMG]

    Back in 2008 I decided what price range I wanted to spend for match ammo on a 10-22 build. I measured different ammo/lots of the same ammo and bought the reamer below to use on a used butler creek bbl I picked up for cheap. I cut the bbl back 1/4" and recut the extractor groove and cut the chamber with the ppg reamer pictured below.
    [IMG][/IMG]

    The completed rifle
    [IMG][/IMG]

    Typical 5-shot groups @ 50yds.
    [IMG][/IMG]

    The bbl/ammo combo is the easy part to figure out and do. You'll also need to redo the bolt face, re-shape the firing pin, striker spring & bolt spring, trigger springs, trigger/sear polishing, bedding the stock, re-setting the mags, re-tap and thread the scope block.

    The best ammo/bbl in the world doesn't matter if you have a #4 trigger or junk ignition. Couple that with a 46/1000th's (+/-) bolt face for 41/1000th's (+/-) rims and a single hold down screw.

    10-22's really shine with low grade match ammo and a bunch of small tweaks. In 2008 I put $300 into the 1 pictured above (including scope) and it will do +/- 3/8" @ 50yds with $70 a brick (500 rounds) of sk pistol match ammo @ today's prices. I could feed it $180 a brick eley black box and still get the same +/- 3/8" inch groups. That's all that 10-22 has in it. I really don't see groups/accuracy improving if I were to re-cut the chamber with a ppg eley eps reamer and then use the $180 eley black box ammo. There's more to accuracy then just a bbl/chamber and match ammo.

  14. #14
    Boolit Master Drm50's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2016
    Location
    SE Ohio
    Posts
    846
    I have a couple dozen 22 rifles. Closest I have to a target rifle is a Rem RB with Rem 513 barrel.
    My 22s are all sighted in at 40yds. I only have 4 scoped and they all shoot into 1/2" or less at
    40yds or I wouldn't keep them. They have their preferences but normally just Win HPs or CCI
    Mini -mags. I use to include Rem Gold HPs but they have gone south lately. They will shoot target
    ammo just as well. Bottom line if you are not engaged in competition and the rifle you have is not
    capable of taking advantage of premium target ammo, why buy it? You will find a lot of older
    American run of the mill BA 22s will shoot near target gun accuracy with ordinary 22lr ammo.

  15. #15
    Boolit Master uscra112's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Switzerland of Ohio
    Posts
    2,685
    Lotsa good comments here. I only want to add that the issue with Stingers and other such ammo having a longer than normal case is that the mouth of that case gets crowded into the leade of the target style chambers, which greatly increases the bullet pull force, and therefor increases the pressure. Burst rims may result.

    Something else I've noticed over the years - - - I've found barrels whose bore (not groove) diameter was as small as .216, and others as large as .220, (notably Marlin Model 60 Microgroove barrels). I had a Lilja reamer made with a loose pilot, so I could choose the right bushing so as to be sure the chamber is centered.
    flectere si nequeo superos, acheronta movebo

  16. #16
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    WNY
    Posts
    1,335
    I've owned customized 10/22's that I've had almost two grand invested in. They shot very, very well and back when I was going to bigger shoots and needed that type of gun it was a good investment. But, unless you're going to some type of competition where it's timed fire and it requires pin point accuracy and reliability, skip the 10/22s. For the money you're never going to beat an out of the box CZ 455 bolt gun with "decent" ammo. My current out-of-the-box CZ shoots about 95-98% as well as my Anschutz that cost almost four times as much money. You need micrometers to measure the difference. Get the gun and a good variety of standard velocity target ammo and see what it likes. My CZ will shoot GECO std. vel. into five shots under .6" at fifty yards and that stuff can be purchased for under two bucks a box. The better stuff just keeps getting better. One note, a reality check: About 99% of the sub moa rimfires are only sub moa with a keyboard. You will see very few that can do it for five shots at 100 yards on anything resembling a regular basis.
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	100_1847.jpg 
Views:	14 
Size:	30.5 KB 
ID:	223242

  17. #17
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    West Tennessee
    Posts
    751
    If the rifle and ammo will do. 5 or .6 at 50 yards, it'll do MOA at 100 yards, it's the conditions that's a beast when you stretch the legs of the 22LR! I've shot a few groups that would easily go under a nickel at a hundred, but only on those rare mornings in the summer when the air is so still smoke would just hang in one spot! I swear it there's enough wind to drift a piece of cotton wood fluff you can forget making your best groups! I had proof on RFC till photo bucket screwed me! That's multiple <0.25 on the same card with the sizer shots as well from 10/22s. A bolt action with a target trigger just seems easier to make tiny groups with, as there's less stuff moving around, and bolts have even tighter chambers. Even the way an auto is held during the follow through can flub a group quicker than a bolt action.

  18. #18
    Boolit Master
    lefty o's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Posts
    1,558
    i disagree with the above. i used to shoot a 100yd 22lr benchrest league, and there's lots of guys/guns/ammo out there that will do 1/2"@50yds, but when you go to 100yds, other than occasional lucky groups, the number of people/guns who can hold under 1" at 100yds with a 22lr consistantly, drops. rimfire accuracy, comes down to the same 3 things as any other rifle, a good gun, great ammo, and the idiot behind the trigger best be able to do their job or the other two dont matter.

  19. #19
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    West Tennessee
    Posts
    751
    I probably got a little wide on the 50 yard groups, they probably should have been in the .2-.3 range. I still contend the wind is a huge factor for the 22LR at a hundred though, UGE! The marksmen get separated from the shooters real quick when the wind picks up, do they not?

  20. #20
    Boolit Master
    lefty o's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Posts
    1,558
    Quote Originally Posted by Thundarstick View Post
    I probably got a little wide on the 50 yard groups, they probably should have been in the .2-.3 range. I still contend the wind is a huge factor for the 22LR at a hundred though, UGE! The marksmen get separated from the shooters real quick when the wind picks up, do they not?
    that i can agree with. you had better be on your game watching the wind shooting a 22lr at 100 .

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check