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Thread: Restoring an old Saeco bottom pour lead furnace

  1. #1
    Boolit Bub
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    Restoring an old Saeco bottom pour lead furnace

    Hello ladies and gents,

    I've had a cold the past few days, so I haven't been able to go over to my uncle's property to reload and shoot with him. I should be good enough to be non-contagious tomorrow.

    In the meantime, I decided to get started on a project I've neglected. A couple years ago... being tired of my Lee drip-o-matics (which actually have served me very well for the money)... i snagged a really terribly beat up Saeco bottom pour furnace from Ebay.

    It's beat to hell, didn't work, rusty, and needs a lot of loving. Luckily... I'm an electronics tech, and my dad owns a pretty awesome machine shop. So I should have anything and everything I'd need to clean it up and restore it to perfect function.

    The first thing I did was disassemble it the rest of the way, which is pretty self explanatory once you have one in front of you. I didn't know if the heating element would be any good or not. I used a Fluke meter to test the heater element, and got a reading of 19 ohms. NOTE: On something really old and scroungy, you might have to clean up the ends of the elements to GET a resistance reading in the first place. I wonder how many guys have thought they had a bad element, when really... they just had a badly oxidized, dirty surface that made it impossible to get a good reading?

    Anyway... by ohms law, we can figure out if that 19 ohm reading should be in the ball park.

    P in watts = (Voltage x Voltage)/Resistance = (120V * 120V)/19 ohms = 757.89 Watts.

    So my heating element is probably good. Awesome!

    Buried inside the housing on front I also found the thermostat. The ebay seller didn't think it had one... but in fact... the retaining nut had just fallen off at some point, and the thermostat fell down inside the housing a bit out of sight. The temp control seems to be locked up. I'm going to hit that with some contact cleaner in a bit and see if I can get it to loosen up. If i can't get the thermostat cleaned up and working again... I'll either retro-fit one from my 10lb Lee pot in there, or just control temp with a PID and a K thermocouple. I'd like to keep the Saeco pot as original as reasonably possible though.

    After disassembling everything, I masked off the front panel with tape, put all fo the rusty parts in the sand blaster, and got them cleaned up. Right now I'm about to go back out to the machine shop and paint everything with some high temperature black stove paint. The front panel is in pretty decent shape, so I will eventually just try to clean that up with some cleaner... and maybe some jeweler's rouge or whatever polishing compound I can find.

    below are photos from when I was taking it apart, linked from Photobucket.










  2. #2
    Boolit Bub
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    A few more notes:

    - The insulation is really, really ratty. I ordered some ceramic wool insulation like the kind blacksmiths use to insulate their forges, good to 2300F or so. That should be plenty durable enough, and it only cost $10 or so for enough of it off of Amazon. That will come in this week while i'm gone working in the Chicago area... and I'll probably be putting this old girl back together Friday night or Saturday of next week.

    - The wiring, as you can see in the photos, is also in really rough shape. The old insulation is just rotting off. The cord is going in the copper scrap barrel, it's useless. I thought maybe I could cheap out and just trim it back a foot or so... but alas... I better just do the job right. Luckily Dad keeps some high temperature wire in stock in his shop so I'm probably all set. The other alternative i see some guys mention is to hit goodwill and look for old clothes irons, and use the cord from those. That's a possibility if I don't like whatever wire dad has in stock.

    - No idea if i'm going to be able to get the thermostat to work after it's cleaned up or not. Again, if I must I can just control temperature with a K thermocouple and an external PID and relay, but I'd prefer to keep the old Saeco looking as stock as possible.

    - Haven't really cleaned out and inspected the pour spout or stopper yet. Need to do that. Since what i'm hoping for is a more drip free casting furnace... that's going to be critical. If i must, I'll turn my own spout and stopper down on one of the lathes and retrofit them.

    - I AM going to turn down my own pour spout and stopper to retrofit into my two Lee drip-o-matics, but I want to finish this project first.

  3. #3
    Boolit Master



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    I always wondered what my pot looks like on the inside!
    Good luck in rebuilding it.
    You will enjoy it.
    Plenty of room to pre-heat multiple molds on the around the edge. You can vary the flow of lead with set screw. I run mine between 700 and the 800 setting. Each mold seems to like a different flow and temp setting. I use this one strictly for mixed lead, and a lee for pure lead. Bottom pour on the lee is plugged.

  4. #4
    Boolit Bub
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    Thanks. It shouldn't be too difficult, particularly with all the tools I have access too.

    I didn't mention it in my earlier posts... but dad is also good friends with the guy who owns the local scrap yard. Recently, some old equipment from a factory got dropped of at Gus' scrap yard, and Gus gave dad a call since he thought he'd be interested in some of it.

    Sitting in one of the panels of old equipment were 3 PIDs. They take a variety of thermocouples, and RTD sensors as well, depending on how you connect them.

    I calibrate electronic equipment for a living, so when i decide to go the PID route, it will be no trouble at all to set one of those up, check calibration on it to make sure it's accurate (My equipment will easily test thermocouple instruments to the tenth of a degree)... and adjust it if necessary.

    I've always wanted one of these old Saeco's. The Lee's are going to be platforms for playing with some ideas for my own spouts that might drip less. Eventually when I've tinkered enough, one of these days I'm going to get ambitious and make my own bottom pour lead furnace from scratch with a 30lb - 40 lb capacity, depending on what stainless or cast iron crucible I dig up to build it around.

  5. #5
    Boolit Master


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    The wires,connections,and thermostat are a constant problem due to heat and rust. I have a Lyman and got rid of all connections except two wires going to the heating element. I use a PID which gives extremely good heat control and reliability. The PID was a great improvement for quality.

  6. #6
    Boolit Buddy firebyprolong's Avatar
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    I have the same Saeco pot that I've used continuously for the past 20 years. The thermostat froze on mine as well. It was stiff when I started using it to the point that the original knob cracked. I finally got tired of it and fixed it. I am NOT an electronics guy, as in I gauge the life of anything with a plug by the magic blue smoke it emits when I finally cook it for good.
    That being said the contacts in mine looked good but the threaded stem that passes to the knob was badly corroded. I measured the travel from low to high with a mic noted it and took it apart. After I cleaned the stem and all the nuts I lubed it with a touch of graphite and reset it to the measurements I'd taken. Went from needing a pair of pliers to change temp to two fingers. Got the temperature to match within a little less than 50*.
    Now a guy that could actually read a multimeter could have done that by measuring something having to do with the flow of electrons and get it closer but hey it works. I found that the local true value hardware store stocks a appliance pointer knob that is a dead ringer for the original and is apparently high temp because it hasn't melted yet. Hope you get your up and running they really are a great pot.

  7. #7
    Boolit Master
    Bent Ramrod's Avatar
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    Cowpuncher,

    As an electronics guy, maybe you could help me. I have two SAECO pots, for ladle pouring, both needing fixing. The heating elements don’t heat. On one of them, I took it apart to find the wire from the thermostat to the end of the heating element was oxidized and broken. I got some high temperature stove wire and a couple of those Hevi-Duty spade clips, hooked the connection together and put the pot together, and it worked fine for 8 months before it stopped again.

    Took it apart, and the same (repaired) connection was oxidized and broken again, and now the stove wire and spade clips were oxidized and the inlet wire to the heating element was broken off shorter than it was. I put two pieces of stove wire in parallel between the thermostat and the stub of wire on the heating element, hoping that the capacity for carrying current without oxidizing would double, put it back together and got another six months’ use out of it before it stopped heating again.

    The second one was working fine before my move, and I imagine the vibration from driving it over here has caused the same breakage in it, though I haven’t opened it up yet.

    I don’t imagine there is much inlet wire left on the heating element of the first pot, and if things continue in the second pot, probably the same thing will happen. Is it possible to grind away the heating element and expose more wire, or would I need a new element? And would you have any ideas on why I can’t make a permanent fix on these things?

    Thanks very much in advance. I like the SAECO pots better than other offerings, when they work. Definitely worth rebuilding; only problem is that I can’t find an electric repair shop any more. Have a third pot, with no integral control, that has a Harbor Freight Dremel rheostat attached, which is better for heat control than plugging and unplugging the thing, but not very precise in temperature adjustment. I’d like to get the other two back in operation.

  8. #8
    Boolit Buddy varmintpopper's Avatar
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    I have a SAECO pot like Yours, With serial No. 18. it's very old but works like a champ. And has never had a repair. Just lucky I guess.

    Good Shooting

    Lindy

  9. #9
    Boolit Bub
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    Quote Originally Posted by wv109323 View Post
    The wires,connections,and thermostat are a constant problem due to heat and rust. I have a Lyman and got rid of all connections except two wires going to the heating element. I use a PID which gives extremely good heat control and reliability. The PID was a great improvement for quality.
    Still considering going the PID route...but I love the classic look of old tools. I'd really prefer to keep it fully functional in as close to original condition as possible. So if I can't clean up my thermostat and get it working... I'm going to at least try one of the Lee thermostats and see if I can get it to work.

    If not? - I'll just directly wire a plug to the heating element and bring it out of the control housing.... then make an separate box with a PID, relay, and 120VAC plug. Plug the wire going directly into the heating element into a plug connected to the relay.... plug a K thermocouple into the PID... and go that route. Still would work (better in fact i'm sure)....

    But I've got a soft spot in my heart for old tools, and keeping them as original as possible. Nothing agitates me more than people painting over old antique furniture, or hacking up old classic cars to make a low rider... etc. When these oldies are gone nobody will ever be making them again.

  10. #10
    Boolit Bub
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    Quote Originally Posted by firebyprolong View Post
    I have the same Saeco pot that I've used continuously for the past 20 years. The thermostat froze on mine as well. It was stiff when I started using it to the point that the original knob cracked. I finally got tired of it and fixed it. I am NOT an electronics guy, as in I gauge the life of anything with a plug by the magic blue smoke it emits when I finally cook it for good.
    That being said the contacts in mine looked good but the threaded stem that passes to the knob was badly corroded. I measured the travel from low to high with a mic noted it and took it apart. After I cleaned the stem and all the nuts I lubed it with a touch of graphite and reset it to the measurements I'd taken. Went from needing a pair of pliers to change temp to two fingers. Got the temperature to match within a little less than 50*.
    Now a guy that could actually read a multimeter could have done that by measuring something having to do with the flow of electrons and get it closer but hey it works. I found that the local true value hardware store stocks a appliance pointer knob that is a dead ringer for the original and is apparently high temp because it hasn't melted yet. Hope you get your up and running they really are a great pot.
    If I have to, I'll turn down a special knob on the lathe and thread it for a set screw. I build vacuum tube guitar amps as a hobby (and sometimes for money when somebody has deep pockets and pesters me about it enough), so I've got plenty of chicken head knobs... but they're plastic. Dunno if they would hold up or not. Might try it, might not.

  11. #11
    Boolit Bub
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bent Ramrod View Post
    Cowpuncher,

    As an electronics guy, maybe you could help me. I have two SAECO pots, for ladle pouring, both needing fixing. The heating elements don’t heat. On one of them, I took it apart to find the wire from the thermostat to the end of the heating element was oxidized and broken. I got some high temperature stove wire and a couple of those Hevi-Duty spade clips, hooked the connection together and put the pot together, and it worked fine for 8 months before it stopped again.

    Took it apart, and the same (repaired) connection was oxidized and broken again, and now the stove wire and spade clips were oxidized and the inlet wire to the heating element was broken off shorter than it was. I put two pieces of stove wire in parallel between the thermostat and the stub of wire on the heating element, hoping that the capacity for carrying current without oxidizing would double, put it back together and got another six months’ use out of it before it stopped heating again.

    The second one was working fine before my move, and I imagine the vibration from driving it over here has caused the same breakage in it, though I haven’t opened it up yet.

    I don’t imagine there is much inlet wire left on the heating element of the first pot, and if things continue in the second pot, probably the same thing will happen. Is it possible to grind away the heating element and expose more wire, or would I need a new element? And would you have any ideas on why I can’t make a permanent fix on these things?

    Thanks very much in advance. I like the SAECO pots better than other offerings, when they work. Definitely worth rebuilding; only problem is that I can’t find an electric repair shop any more. Have a third pot, with no integral control, that has a Harbor Freight Dremel rheostat attached, which is better for heat control than plugging and unplugging the thing, but not very precise in temperature adjustment. I’d like to get the other two back in operation.
    Bent Ramrod,

    Keep in mind I'm not an expert with these heating elements... but... they basically amount to a grea big giant whopping resistor. That resistor has a very high wattage rating (750W+ in the case of this heating element). That's why I used the equation for calculating power with Ohm's law to check if the resistance I was reading indicated that it would function. Power = (Voltage squared)/Resistance.

    This is actually the first project I've undertaken with a heating element like this. I have an uncle who worked for Watlow many years ago and worked with heating elements like these..he gave me a few pointers from his fuzzy memories of working with them 40 years ago.

    I'm not sure if you can trim them back to expose more wire to connect to or not. However, I'm willing to bet it's worth a try within reason. I considered that myself but I SHOULD be okay and have enough.

    This stuff has layers to it, like a coaxial cable. There's a wire that runs through the center and carries your current... and that's what gets really hot. Then there's a layer of stuff... usually white looking stuff. That's going to be an insulator that holds up at high temp... some sort of ceramic or maybe even powdered vermiculite or a similar substance, that gets packed in there tight. Then there's a metal outer layer. Again - the part that carries the voltage and current, and thus generates your heat, is that wire running through the center that you need to make an electrical connection to.

    If I didn't have enough of that center wire to connect to... I would try trimming back that metal outer layer VERY carefully, and the white layer underneath it.. leaving it flush. I'd do the bare minimum necessary, since honestly I'm not sure this is a GOOD idea.... it's just one I'd try before dropping $40 or so for a new heating element and having to go to the trouble to bend it to shape. Maybe put on your safety goggles and zip around that outer metal layer with a dremel very carefully... avoiding cutting deep enough to get into the center wire... about 1/2" back from the end of the cable to give you another 1/2" to connect to. Then careful use a pair of side cutters or a knife or something to scrape/clean away that white insulator ****, leaving it flush with the end of the metal outer layer. Might work, might not, I have no idea if it's really SAFE... and I take no responsibility if anybody tries this. It's just what i'd do if I were in those shoes.

    At that point once you have 1/2" or so of that center wire exposed, maybe clean it up a bit with a little square of sandpaper, dab some flux on it, and tin it with a bit of solder. Then tin the wire you need to connect to it with a bit of solder. wrap that wire carefully and neatly around the heating element center conductor....then solder it again. Tinning both surfaces before wrapping a turn or two around the heating element center conductor is going to help make a good, well bonded connection... and simplify matters at the point you're making the electrical connection. Another option, and I might try this: Find a little tube of copper that you can slip one end over that heating element center wire... and insert your power cord wire into the other end.... flux dabbed on both surfaces and on the little copper tube... then solder that until solder wicks inside it and fills it. Either of those methods ought to make you a durable connection.

    When I've made those connections on mine, since these connections inside seem to get scroungy and corroded... i'm going to hit them with a shot of the 1200F stove paint before I re-assemble the furnace. Couldn't hurt anything, and it will hopefully create a barrier to oxygen... and thus... scroungy corrosion forming. Worst that can happen is if I have to fix it again i have to hit that spot with some paint thinner, which isn't the end of the world.

    On some other threads on this site that i can't find at the moment, another gentleman was rebuilding one of these furnaces and gave the correct part # from McMaster Carr for a replacement heating element. You'd have to bend it into shape, and pay careful attention to how you bend it.. .you CAN crush that white insulating crud in the element and ruin it with too tight and aggressive a bend. If I find it again i'll post the link here, or of somebody else can find it or knows the post... kindly post it please. You might have to go that route. I recall it being $30 or $40 for the right element.

    If I ever get totally fed up and build myself a super duper caster from scratch in the machine shop... I'll be using a heating element made by Watlow that is supposed to be pretty flexible. I saw some a while back in a catalog that produces 30W per inch... so 36" would give you just over 1,000W of heating power.

    For your purposes you might be better off just wiring 120V power directly to your heating elements, forgetting the thermostat... and running that power cord out to a PID. Your temperature control would be better, and it seems like everybody who runs their pot on a PID loves it. It just wouldn't be original anymore if that matters to you. You COULD just open the thermostat all the way and still plug into a PID setup and get the same control... but it seems like the thermostat in these things is the common point of failure and oopsies... so bypassing it entirely would totally remove that point of failure.

    Always be careful, you can kill yourself working with electricity fast. I've been hit by 580VDC when I was in tech school and probing VERY stupidly with my left hand in an old Marshall Tube guitar amp I own.... and hit by 480VAC Three Phase once when a boss was pushing me way too hard and fast through a dangerous project (part of the reason I ended up quitting that job). I'm lucky to be alive both times. Never probe with your left hand, ever.... always be careful... and if you aren't sure what you are doing get a friend who knows this stuff to help you. Tons of Amateur Radio guys out there know electronics very well, and are HAPPY to help and teach a guy some things. Most of them are great guys, and they use their hobby to serve their fellow citizens and country. I know a few Amateur radio guys who never had a day of formal schooling, but are so good at what they do in their "hobby" they run circles around some professional, degreed engineers.

  12. #12
    Boolit Master
    Bent Ramrod's Avatar
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    Thanks, Cowpuncher. I’ve had a phobia about electricity ever since 8th Grade Science Class, where we had to trace volts, ohms and amps around a circuit and then go backwards and wind up with the same readings. I never got the same readings. Your descriptions are a great help, and whatever I try, I know it’s on me.

  13. #13
    Boolit Buddy firebyprolong's Avatar
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    Chicken head knob, never would have thought of that, but now that you say it it makes sense. I know the couple new chicken head knobs I got have to be made of plastic but they take the heat and stay stiff. I've run that pot hard and the knob is hot enough to burn skin but doesn't melt so I have no idea what they actually are. I figured I'd try a couple and build some if I needed to, two years later and still going strong.

  14. #14
    Boolit Master



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    I have one of those old pots as well, I use a PID with mine just because I can The only problem I've ever had with mine is that I have to run it hotter than I like to keep the spout pouring, run it just a little cool and it clogs even though the pot is molten.

  15. #15
    Boolit Bub
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    Since I build and repair old guitar amps.... I have a selection of knobs like that. NO IDEA if it will melt in an epic failure or not... but I've got so many it makes sense to try. lol

    If the chicken head knob melts, I can always just whittle one out of some aluminum or steel bar stock on the lathe. Non-issue for me.

    When i get it back together and fire it up you'll all see a report and some more pics here. If the plastic knob melts... you'll know it

  16. #16
    Boolit Buddy firebyprolong's Avatar
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    They really are a classic and great running pot. They have a feel and a style that the newer pots just can't match. I'm glad you're talking the time to put this one back together. I have a feeling your going to really enjoy it.
    The only real issue I've had is exactly as lancem mentioned, the spout can freeze occasionally during start up or when you add lead. I just keep a quick light torch on the bench and give it a little help. Once I get into rhythm casting it stays plenty hot.

  17. #17
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    A labor of love. I had one back when. Now have a RCBS bottom feed that is just as good.

  18. #18
    Boolit Master OldBearHair's Avatar
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    Sure don't like to douse cold water on a project, but I would recommend using silver solder on the joint that has been amply prepared as stated above, then use Kaowool around the center wire with enough to fill the space. Then wrap with a hi-temp tape. Kaowool is what is used to make DIY kilns in a round bucket or can and lining on the inside big kilns. Sorta looks like dirty cotton. You can heat one side of a 3/4 inch pad of it with a torch until it it white hot and touch the bottom of the pad with your finger and not feel heat. Then there is woven kaowool. I am sure you can find a better explanation on the subject in the archives.

  19. #19
    Boolit Bub
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldBearHair View Post
    Sure don't like to douse cold water on a project, but I would recommend using silver solder on the joint that has been amply prepared as stated above, then use Kaowool around the center wire with enough to fill the space. Then wrap with a hi-temp tape. Kaowool is what is used to make DIY kilns in a round bucket or can and lining on the inside big kilns. Sorta looks like dirty cotton. You can heat one side of a 3/4 inch pad of it with a torch until it it white hot and touch the bottom of the pad with your finger and not feel heat. Then there is woven kaowool. I am sure you can find a better explanation on the subject in the archives.
    No cold water needed, sir! I believe Kaowool is what I've got ordered (should be delivered by the time I get home). It's the woven ceramic stuff that blacksmiths use to insulate a gas or electric forge. I ordered a 1/2" thick sheet of it... forget the other dimensions but $10 or so on Amazon got me a piece that should be good for restoring 3 or 4 of these pots. The excess will go to my dad... he's going to build a forge to piddle around in soon, so it won't go to waste.

    I've got silver solder, and use it sometime for vacuum tube work when soldering up a big, heavy, hot tube amp over 50W... pcb models anyway. (If anybody's technical and wants the reasons just ask).

    I'm sure dad will have high temperature tape in his machine shop. You wouldn't believe the metal yard and parts stock he has... he seems to think he needs to be his own parts warehouse. He hates to even wait 24 hours for something to come in. So i'm probably set.

    Thanks for the helpful advice!
    Last edited by cowpuncher; 06-26-2018 at 01:12 AM.

  20. #20
    Boolit Bub
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    I travel for work btw guys.... going every Monday morning, back every Thursday or Friday, depending. So a one week wait for the insulation is no big deal for me.

    I'm surprised the spout freezes up on these things, with that loop of heating element right around it on bottom of the pot. I'll keep an eye on that. When (if) I eventually try to roll my own pot... I'm thinking maybe I'll put an electric stove burner directly under the pot, then wrap another coiled element around the pot, and regulate the thing with a PID controlling both. Seems logical anyway, that would eliminate that as a problem with plenty of heat on the bottom.. a K thermocouple close to the drain spout, and heat rises anyway... plus the coil around the pot's sides for good measure. I'll file that away.

    If this pot restoration AND me building one give me no satisfaction, then I'll capitulate and get an RCBS pot.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check