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Thread: Do lubrisizer lubes work as well as tumble lube?

  1. #1
    Boolit Bub
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    Do lubrisizer lubes work as well as tumble lube?

    Hi guys, im pretty new. I know some guys love working up and perfecting loads but thats hard for me to do because I live in the city and I have to shoot at indoor ranges. I am currently shooting a 158gr round nose lee bullet over 6 grains of unique, tumble lubed with allox. I am not over alloxing. I shot at a range today that was much smaller then my normal range and my rounds were so smokey that I felt bad for smoking out the place and left with half an hr still on my time. I had black stuff in my nose, it was a mess. Was almost like black powder. Im not sure if this is the unique, or the lube, or a combination of both. Either way, I think im going to switch to the lubrizer method, it appeals to me already because of how much cleaner of a bullet it makes. I am not interested in powder coating. So I am wondering, am I more likly to get leading? This current setup I get no leading and great accuracy, so im a bit apprehensive about changing completly as I already said, its harder for me to find range time.

  2. #2
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    Oldbrowngun,
    Welcome to the forum.
    Alox is the cause of your smoke, but I've also heard that Unique does exacerbate smokiness, depending on the load, Unique starts to burn cleaner as the charge gets to a certain pressure range.

    If you choose to switch to a lubesizer, besure to investigate the lube you choose, many wax based lubes have Alox in them.

    As to Lead fouling, I have found wax based lubes to be less likely to foul your barrel with lead, than with tumble lubed with Alox.
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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  3. #3
    Boolit Master RU shooter's Avatar
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    If your asking if you can lube a tumble lube designed Lee bullet with regular lube in a lubersizer the answer is yes you can . You can also pan lube them if you want .

    Tim
    If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck!

  4. #4
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    mdi's Avatar
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    An option is pan lubing. Once you get your method down, it's not much/any more trouble than a lubersizer. I pan lube (along with dip lubing and PCing) still after casting for 22 years. Early on a lubersizer didn't fit my budget/lifestyle with initial cost and cost od sizing dies and nose punches for every bullet I cast. I prefer the toaster oven method (place bullets in a pan, add chunked up lube, heat together at around 200 degrees until the lube melts and bullets/lube reach the same temp. Lube depth in the pan is easily adjusted to reach the lube grooves. Some lubes allow you to "punch" the bullet out of the lube but the lubes I prefer don't so I use a "cookie cutter". I made most of my cutters but there are some available commercially. I then size via Lee Push through dies. Next batch to be lubed is just placed in the holes left from the previous batch.). For me and the lubes I use, the lube sticks to the bullets better if applied when they are the same temperature. This all may sound like a lot of work, but I use any "hard" lube available (home made or from White Label Lubes) and it's just a matter of switching pans, no equipment to "empty", no die changes, etc., and the equipment I use has other uses (now the oven and sizing tools are being used with my PCing.

    Hop over to the "Boolit Lube" subforum, there may be a stickie on pan lubing...
    Last edited by mdi; 06-21-2018 at 12:36 PM.
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  5. #5
    Boolit Master

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    Sounds like you need a better range that actually has ventilation! Most all lube ms still smoke a bit, I use Felix lube and W231 powder and I still emerge from a cloud of smoke at the end of a USPSA stage lol. My guys call my gun ye ole smoke stick lol.

  6. #6
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    You’re still going to have some smoke w/ a lubesizer. How much is dependent on what lube you use. The best you can do is help reduce the smoke as much as possible. But eliminating it completely won’t happen w/ lubes.

  7. #7
    Boolit Bub
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    Quote Originally Posted by sutherpride59 View Post
    Sounds like you need a better range that actually has ventilation! Most all lube ms still smoke a bit, I use Felix lube and W231 powder and I still emerge from a cloud of smoke at the end of a USPSA stage lol. My guys call my gun ye ole smoke stick lol.
    I usually shoot at a very large range and the smoke dissappates there rather nicly, though its still pretty noticeable. Today I was at a small local shop with 6 lanes just to test some of my loads, and a single 7 shot cylinder smoked the building up so bad I had to open a door lol. Probably not vented well enough, but still, that was way too much smoke for my liking. If lubrisizer lubes still smoke that much, perhaps I should rethink my stance on powder coating.

  8. #8
    Boolit Buddy
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    I use both traditional lubes and powder coating with good succes. Powder coating virtually eliminates smoke. It would be my choice for indoor shooting for sure.

    Mike

  9. #9
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    DerekP Houston's Avatar
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    For me, I bumped up the powder charge on unique to get rid of some of the smokiness. Try thinning the alox down a bit with mineral spirits and doing an even lighter coat... BLL smokes much less for me than traditional alox. Both powder coating and hitek eliminated smoke for me, I shoot indoors primarily as well.
    My feedback page if you feel inclined to add:
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    Thanks Yall!

  10. #10
    Boolit Master
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    If the smoke doesn’t clear well you probably shouldn’t be shooting there. In my younger days I shot at a few ranges like that, places where you left with the taste of lead and Allox on your tongue. Not the healthiest place for a young man to hang out in.

    Then I got to shoot in well designed places where the bad stuff got sucked down range faster than you could chase it, if you were of a mind to and I saw the light. I once attended training at FLETC and the government sent me a letter months later offering to pay for blood tests as they had determined that a fan on a range I was on ran at an RPM below their spec. FWIW Those were the cleanest ranges I’ve ever shot a gun on and the air was much cleaner than downtown.

    I lubrisize my lead boolits almost exclusively with White Label Lube BAC and don’t notice much smoke, usually only with light Unique loads. Once pressure is at “normal” load levels even that pretty much goes away. It sounds to me like you need better lube, more pressure and/or a better shooting venue.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by MSD MIke View Post
    Powder coating virtually eliminates smoke. Mike
    Oldbrowngun:

    You might try a bit softer boolit or a slightly larger one or both. Lee Alox acts both as a lube and it slightly enlarges the boolit diameter by its presence as does powder coating but powder coating won't burn. The smoke is an indication that your boolit/lube combination is allowing a small amount of gas leakage that is burning some of the alox lube. Some medium-soft lubes like LBT Blue and NRA 50/50 will act like an "O" ring in boolit lube grooves and compensate for a slightly too small diameter. These also need an alloy that will allow some obturation to totally seal off powder gas. Lubricants are less important as friction reducers at pistol velocities, but act as sealant to compensate for small irregularities in the bore. Since you are shooting a 158 grain round nose, I will assume the gun is a .38 Special or .357 Magnum. Mike the chamber throats and make sure they are .001" larger than the barrel groove diameter. Check to see that your gun does not have a constriction where the barrel is threaded into the frame. Load a boolit no smaller than .0005" under the chamber throat diameter. Accuracy will be outstanding and you will have little to no smoke.

  12. #12
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    I was going to ask if you size your bullets in a push through sizer. If your bullets are not consistent in size it makes it more likely your crimp die will provide a different crimp some with less crimp will have lower pressure and light load of unique at lower pressure = smoke. I think I have heard Unique called burning dirt before.

    I like Unique powder but all of pistol powders have a need to reach a threshold pressure to burn well. Little more crimp might help if loading a cartridge that can take a tighter crimp. Or if still within published load data bump up the charge by .2 of a grain see if you get less smoke.

    I would really check out PC it works well and if you can find a garage sale or thrift store toaster oven the cost is minimal. I shake and bake and during the 20 minute bake time I do something else in the shop, phone timer goes off and I pull a tray with 75 bullets out. Size after baking for a consistent size.

    Find someplace else to shoot, primers put lead compounds in the air when they burn. If your coughing on the lube smoke you are probably picking up a good does of lead from the primer smoke. Lube smoke hangs in the air then it is a darn good bet that so does the primer smoke. Just that the primer smoke is less noticeable.
    Scrap.... because all the really pithy and emphatic four letter words were taken and we had to describe this source of casting material somehow so we added an "S" to what non casters and wives call what we collect.

    Kind of hard to claim to love America while one is hating half the Americans that disagree with you. One nation indivisible requires work.

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  13. #13
    Boolit Bub
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    I was shooting quenched wheel weight boolits. I had been shooting unsized boolits for my 357 magnum that were .360. I started sizing and shot mostly the sized boolits today that were sized to .359. Curator may be right on the boolits behing too hard, since I seemed to get even more smoke with my sized boolits. I think I am going to give powder coating a try.

  14. #14
    Boolit Grand Master

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    If it were me, I'd find a solution before I abandoned lubed cast bullets. I have PCed a bunch of my cast bullets for 5 handguns and three rifles and yep, it does do everything folks say it does. I have found some powders smoke if the loads are below the optimum pressure (like light loads of Unique) and alox is a bit smokier than other lubes, but it can be "controlled" and lessened. Besides switching to 45-45-10, I dip lubed with thinned alox (and yep, if you can see alox on your bullet it may be too much and will smoke). In my thinking, dip lubing only puts lube on the needed surface, eliminating excess lube, producing less smoke, and for me it's an easy method for reducing mess too. I have never been bothered by smoky handloads even in the older ranges with so-so ventilation as none of my loads smoke like black powder.
    My Anchor is holding fast!

  15. #15
    Boolit Grand Master Char-Gar's Avatar
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    I am a 76 year old geezer who has been casting and loading since the age of 16. I was well past middle age before people became concerned about dirty powder, dirty hands and smoke. We loaded cast bullets lubed the traditional way.

    I was past 65 when I first shot at an indoor range. I have only been a half dozen or so times since them. I don't like the idea of a stranger a few feet away handling and firing a loaded firearm. There are too many idiots in this world for me to feel comfortable. I realize that with the urbanization of America, this is what many must do.

    This post has little or nothing to do with the OP's question. I just fine the changes in the shooting world, as perplexing as the other changes I observe. Consider this post of mine a form of self therapy.
    Disclaimer: The above is not holy writ. It is just my opinion based on my experience and knowledge. Your mileage may vary.

  16. #16
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    The notion of dirty loads is perplexing to me as well and I’m close to forty years younger than you. My hands and firearms are dirty after shooting factory loads. And yes, some of them smoke even w/ jacketed bullets. The smoke is a lot less but it’s still there. I guess cleaning your hands and guns after shooting is a thing of the past.

    This post has nothing to do w/ the OP. I completely understand the need to reduce smoke when shooting indoors. Just like I understand wanting to reduce it when shooting competition.

  17. #17
    Boolit Bub
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    Quote Originally Posted by Char-Gar View Post
    I am a 76 year old geezer who has been casting and loading since the age of 16. I was well past middle age before people became concerned about dirty powder, dirty hands and smoke. We loaded cast bullets lubed the traditional way.

    I was past 65 when I first shot at an indoor range. I have only been a half dozen or so times since them. I don't like the idea of a stranger a few feet away handling and firing a loaded firearm. There are too many idiots in this world for me to feel comfortable. I realize that with the urbanization of America, this is what many must do.

    This post has little or nothing to do with the OP's question. I just fine the changes in the shooting world, as perplexing as the other changes I observe. Consider this post of mine a form of self therapy.
    I am only 35, and things have even changed a lot in my lifetime. I am not one to follow trends or fads, and I tend to lean toward older ways of doing things, as I find people used to do things right, now a lot of fads seem to developed designed to go after the consumers dollar. Hence my resistance to wanting to switch to powder coating. Non-powder coated bullets have worked for a long time. I agree about shooting with strangers. I hate having to shoot where I do. I cannot tell you the amount of times i've been muzzle covered or watched idiotic things happen likes very young guys clearly shooting for the first time being handed a rented AR and shooting so bad they are hitting the target track. I am working to get out of my situation, land is expensive in my state, but within the next few years i'll have a piece of my own and then I will be shooting as much as I really want to. I am hopeing to use the now time to learn as much as I can about casting and reloading, im going to need a lot of ammo.

  18. #18
    Boolit Master




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    I'm 76+ as well and conventional lubed bullets work just fine with for me and my rifles/pistols. White Label CR lube is my choice, very little smoke indoor, don't notice any outdoor. Indoor needs good ventilation.
    God Bless America
    US Army, NRA Patron, TSRA Life
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  19. #19
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    I really dislike lube in any way shape or form.
    I either powder coat or Hitek coat my boolits eliminating the need for messy, smoky lube

  20. #20
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    A big part of my casting and shooting lead bullets is the experimentation. It's silly to think one can buy a mold, a pot and some lube and be able to make perfect bullets right off the bat. I did make shootable bullets from the start, but each batch had a few unsatisfactory things about them. The first time I used alox I thought I was shooting my BP revolver. Plus I was using a light load of Unique which added to the smoke. Over time I was able to get bullets I could drive to magnum velocities without much (if any) leading and as accurate as any bullet. After I "perfected" my cast bullets Powder Coating appeared on the scene so I tried it. Yes, they do most of what folks say they do and are just a little more work, but I have come to the conclusion the the only benefit over my cast bullets it the color (a big 265 gr., 44 cal red bullet is soooo coool)...

    That's why I mentioned I'd stick to solving the smoke "problem" (and my OCD) before I tried another process...
    My Anchor is holding fast!

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check