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Thread: Trailboss/Unique hitting high

  1. #1
    Boolit Mold
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    Trailboss/Unique hitting high

    Quite a while back I cast and fired some 44 mag loads using Trailboss, unique and w296. If I remember correctly I used the TB 70%formula. Unique was 7 gn, and w296 was a near minimum load. All were pushing Lee’s 430-310RF I believe.
    I shot these from both a 14” Contender and a Ruger 96/44, and maybe my 1894 Marlin was in the mix as well.
    I don’t own a chrono yet, but the W296 loads were a much higher velocity than the fast powders according to the load data.
    My question is why is the point of impact so much higher with the slower velocity fast powders?
    In my mind I’m trying to attribute that to muzzle flip caused by the quick burn rate.
    Any thoughts on this?

  2. #2
    Boolit Master
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    Lower velocity means more time in the barrel. Even though the recoil is slight, the muzzle rises farther before the projectile exits the barrel.
    When the Cambrian measures were forming, They promised perpetual peace.
    They swore, if we gave them our weapons, that the wars of the tribes would cease.
    But when we disarmed They sold us and delivered us bound to our foe,
    And the Gods of the Copybook Headings said: "Stick to the Devil you know."

  3. #3
    Boolit Mold
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    That does make sense. I’ll have to see how those work in my new 240 gn mold from Accurate.
    I just put a Skinner peep on my 1894, so hopefully I’ll have enough elevation adjustment to shoot slow and fast powders.

  4. #4
    Boolit Grand Master

    Wayne Smith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tommag View Post
    Lower velocity means more time in the barrel. Even though the recoil is slight, the muzzle rises farther before the projectile exits the barrel.
    What he said. That's one of the most concise and accurate ways I've heard it explained.
    Wayne the Shrink

    There is no 'right' that requires me to work for you or you to work for me!

  5. #5
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by tommag View Post
    Lower velocity means more time in the barrel. Even though the recoil is slight, the muzzle rises farther before the projectile exits the barrel.
    tommag nailed it!
    It's all chicken, even the beak!

  6. #6
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    fast powders and the Lee 310 aren't a good match at all..
    Got a .22 .30 .32 .357 .38 .40 .41 .44 .45 .480 or .500 S&W cylinder that needs throats honed? 9mm, 10mm/40S&W, 45 ACP pistol barrel that won't "plunk" your handloads? 480 Ruger or 475 Linebaugh cylinder that needs the "step" reamed to 6° 30min chamfer? Click here to send me a PM You can also find me on Facebook Click Here.

  7. #7
    Boolit Master Wheelguns 1961's Avatar
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    They call that dwell time

  8. #8
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    mdi's Avatar
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    Yep, as the fellers above say, "barrel time". The time the bullet is in the barrel is longer therefore recoil/barrel movement has more effect on point of impact...
    My Anchor is holding fast!

  9. #9
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by tommag View Post
    Lower velocity means more time in the barrel. Even though the recoil is slight, the muzzle rises farther before the projectile exits the barrel.
    It's even more obvious in a revolver. I ran some fairly light loads in my Ruger SA 44 Special. They shot so high I could not crank my rear sight down far enough to compensate.

  10. #10
    Boolit Mold
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    Quote Originally Posted by DougGuy View Post
    fast powders and the Lee 310 aren't a good match at all..
    The 310 was the largest diameter gas check Lee had to offer. It also has to be driven hard in a 1 in 38 twist in the Marlin. It slugs at .430 groove. These boolits fell near .431 so at least i was able to lube and seat the checks. I’m an experimenter, so I had to see for myself. And yes you are right, not good with fast powders.

  11. #11
    Boolit Master
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    Tommag said it all

  12. #12
    Boolit Master


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    When I first got a Contender with a 14” barrel I loaded up some standard .44 Specials and some full bore magnum loads- 250 grains @ 1600 FPS. The magnum rounds hit about 30” lower than the Special rounds at 50 yards.
    Sometimes life taps you on the shoulder and reminds you it's a one way street. Jim Morris

  13. #13
    Boolit Buddy
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    Most likely related to your grip...I'll explain but first need to disagree about what has been stated above about lower velocity and higher poi of impact (for given bullet weight) as this is easily proven wrong by mathematics.

    If you look at recoil, velocity, and point of impact (poi) for a given bullet weight then if a bullet has higher velocity then it has higher recoil and higher muzzle flip. If a bullet has a lower velocity then it has lower recoil and lower muzzle flip. There is a linear relationship and they exactly cancel. This isn't my findings but documented by Hatcher way back in the 1930's.

    Now if your grip is tighter or you are fighting the recoil more on the heavier loads then you will absorb some part of the muzzle flip.

    Think about it...

  14. #14
    Boolit Mold
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    I am going to do a bench test with grip as one controlled condition. Powder type and load, of course will be the other variable. Boolit design and weight will be the same. I’ll use the contender as any flip issues will be more apparent. I replaced the factory grip and forend with these. Seemed like it reduced the barrel rise a bit but hits the palm or heel of my trigger hand a good bit with hot loads.Click image for larger version. 

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  15. #15
    Boolit Buddy
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    Here is reference material from Hatchers "Textbook of Pistols and Revolvers"...

    IMG_20180623_0001.pdf

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Last edited by unique; 06-23-2018 at 10:19 AM.

  16. #16
    Boolit Mold
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    I don’t disagree with the book. However, I can’t say what tommag stated was false either. In the end, the alignment of the bore to the intended target when the bullet leaves the muzzle is what is going to make the difference. Grip might help close the gap, but I don’t think it will solve for it either. Just my prediction for today’s test.
    I’m going to try Trailboss at 6 gr - subsonic
    2400 at 18.5 gr - estimated 1300fps
    W296 at 22.5 gr - estimated 1500fps
    I don’t shoot the contender very well while standing yet, so I’ll be at the bench for this.

  17. #17
    Boolit Buddy
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    Please keep us informed as there is always something new to learn...

  18. #18
    Boolit Mold
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    So my test ended up being somewhat limited. I only did a single 5 shot group of each. Range was about 60’
    I did not shoot any Unique loads as the range was very busy. Grouping was not good IMO as I just got this mold and have not worked up any loads as of yet. I did try some 2400 loads at 50 yds that show promise.
    The flyer in the upper right group was probably the result of a muzzle breaked 338 Lapua about 8 feet away.
    Yes, we shot in unison. Lol. I thought I was acclimated to friendly range fire, but that one was a real
    ***********! At any rate,I do see about a 3” difference in elevation between fast and slow powders.
    The difference In grip really only showed up in the 2 groups using W296. And that difference was slight.
    Once I get more accurate loads worked up I think a 50yd test would be more conclusive.
    Click image for larger version. 

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    Last edited by Minerat; 06-25-2018 at 10:27 AM.

  19. #19
    Boolit Mold
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    I don’t believe the Trailboss boolits were keyholing. Just the paper sticking to the pallet when I tore it off

  20. #20
    Boolit Grand Master

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    Quote Originally Posted by tommag View Post
    Lower velocity means more time in the barrel. Even though the recoil is slight, the muzzle rises farther before the projectile exits the barrel.
    ^+1 That has been my experience
    I Am Descended From Men Who Would Not Be Ruled

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
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LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check