Paper patch height

[flatsguide]

I’m going to be shooting the following bullet, a BACO 535 gn Elliptical, Jim 443530e pp in a 1:16 alloy. .45_70with around 80 gns 11/2 Swiss. I’m guessing the ogive meets the sides at tangency. How hi up on the ogive should I patch so when the bullet slumps the lead is not riding unprotected. .060” .090” ???
Thanks guys,
Richard

[Rcmaveric]

You patch to the ogive. It changes my seating depth so i just patch the driving bands and that works just fine.

[Don McDowell]

With the 446535 and 525 gr money bullets I use a patch 7/8's inch wide. Allow only enough over the base to leave the sprue mark completely exposed.

[flatsguide]

Thanks! Now to get casting.
Regards, Richard

[BRUCE MOULDS]

richard,
the reading of the confetti is a must do experience.
if you patch a little forward of the start of ogive, you will allow for a little nose slump.
if the confetti from this is not fully cut to the front, you will see by how much, and can shorten the patch accordingly.
patches for 12:1 will need to be slightly shorter than for 16:1 for the above reason.
let your confetti tell you what it needs.
if the patch is too short, a little nose slump can cause leading.
you will get it in the end.
keep safe,
bruce.

[Don McDowell]

You may or may not experience nose slump by not patching to the ogive, depends more on the alloy. I would like to try the 12-1 sometime, but for now I'm pretty happy with the 16-1, and I find no lead in the barrel after a days match shooting using the 7/8' inch wide patch.
You will notice a few minutes less elevation at distance using the shorter patch than a longer one.

[flatsguide]

Thanks guys, reading confetti Akin to reading tea leaves lol.
Regards, Richard

[Don McDowell]

That's one of the things I notice with wet wrapped bullets, you get more of a paper dust cloud than the confetti that comes with dry wrapped.

[country gent]

Ive noticed that also possibly because of the slightly more stretch to the paper. Ive also notice wet wrapped patches when dried seem "harder than the dry wrapped. Could be from the clays and other things used to coat paper maybe.

Recovering patches is interesting not only the patches themselves, but on a calm day where they are in relationship to the muzzle. I find it interesting on good patched bullets how small an area the used patches are in on a calm day. You want the patches to come of at the muzzle or very close to it. A patch that hangs on definitely affects accuracy.

[Distant Thunder]

I have dry wrapped for the past 4 or 5 years and from very early on in my paper patching journey I found that patching .020-.030" back from the start of the ogive gave me better accuracy. I typically cast to 11 to 12 BHN, roughly 16:1 hardness plus a bit. Most of my molds have some sort of a line that is at the start of the ogive that I use for reference when starting the patch.

I'm not overly concerned about patch length (height), I just start them at the same place or pretty close and whatever overhangs the base gets folded over the bottom. I prefer that there is a bare center about 1/3 caliber but it isn't something I worry about. I've tried longer and shorter patches, more or less folded over, and never noticed any affect on my accuracy.

As to confetti, I don't worry as much as some about the size of the pieces as long as the patch is coming off close to the muzzle. That is one of the main reason I dry patch. Doing so has without a doubt improved my accuracy and I find it much easier than working with wet patches, dry they all wrap the same.

DT

[flatsguide]

Thanks DT. Much appreciated.
Regards, Richard

[rfd]

all of this is about guidelines. guidelines are just that - stuff that might work for other people. all of this reloading stuff is fraught with some measure of uniqueness. testing stuff out on yer own is where your rubber meets your road, and is mandatory if consummate consistent accuracy is the prime goal.

[Distant Thunder]

rfd,

That is certainly true, but I have used a set of "guidelines" that have been rather consistent in five of my rifles and a few rifles of friends. That does not mean that what I do is the only way to do it. There is more than one way to skin a cat and YMMV as always.

It all starts with getting a bullet that best fits your chamber and bore, after that the variables kick in. So far only one of my rifles has refused to play nice with ppb and I haven't given up on it yet. I plan to apply a few things I've learned about designing ppb over the past two years on that rifle when time allows. Time seems to be the problem.

DT

[rfd]

yes DT, time always seems to be the most elusive stuff of all. in comparison, all the other stuff is relatively easy.

[flatsguide]

Very true rfd, which is fine, it sure would be boring to if it went like “ I have such and such rifle what load should I use” and it put every pill in the X ring.
Time is my most precious commodity unfortunately.
Regards, Richard

[rfd]

... it sure would be boring to if it went like “ I have such and such rifle what load should I use” and it put every pill in the X ring.

that happens all the time. this is all akin to some people asking "what's the best ... ?", when the "best" is actually elusively quite personal and the questioner should just be seeking guidelines as in "please help with ....". in my PPB adventures, i learned a lot - and continue to learn. i accept stuff in the form of anything and everything from everyone. the rest is up to me to decipher the wheat from the chaff, perhaps try, and either adopt, modify, or forget. to me, the nut to crack for any bp PPB load is the slick's dropped diameter and the patch paper thickness coming together to best bore ride. then the myriad of other PPB cartridge load considerations will shortly follow, from the slick selection down to the primer - and the alloy used, the rifle, the barrel, the ROT, the chamber, etc etc ad nauseum. are we havin' fun ... yet?

[flatsguide]

....and that is why we are called “gun cranks”. Lol

[country gent]

Perhaps instead of asking for the "best" loads, we should be asking for the best starting point. chambers, leades, throats all factor into this bore and groove dimensions, number of grooves, width and barrel length again have a effect. Brass also has an effect. There are so many variables here that stating this is it look no farther is impossible.

As to the OPs original post I usually start 1/16" ahead of the ogive and work back in .030 increments Watching the patches and accuracy shows what is right for the rifle. My one 45-70 with BRC Barrel likes the patch .030 ( 1/32) ahead of the ogive bbut it has .004 choke in the last 4" of the barrel. My roller, Pedersoli sharps and Hepburn all like .030 behind the ogive. For comparison the pedersoli is their barrel, the Roller is a badger barrel, the Hepburn is a green mountain and the brochardt is a BRC barrel. My chambers are cut with the throat off the case mouth no leade or free bore in them.

One of the best books for starting points and getting started Is Randolh S Wrights, Loading and shooting the Paper Patched bullet A beginners Guide. His other boof Loading and shooting the original Shutzen rifle is also very good

[rfd]

+1 for randy's book - an absolute must have for all PPB pilgrims.

[Distant Thunder]

+2 on Randy's book, I bought mine out at Raton in 2007 and I must say it is full of useful information.