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Thread: Do modern Gunsmiths really 'smith, or, do they just 'assemble AR's'

  1. #21
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nobade View Post
    I specialize in bolt action rifles, and can do just about anything to one you might like. And I don't allow AR types or others like that in the shop. I just don't want to deal with the typical type of person who owns them. So no, not all 'smiths are parts changers. But a whole lot are.
    Geeze, thanks a lot. People from all walks of life own and enjoy those guns, but I guess they don't deserve good gunsmithing services, just part changers who don't know their muzzle from their butt. Most of my guns are older then the vast majority of this forum, but I sure as heck enjoy ARs too. I'm far from alone in that.
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  2. #22
    Boolit Grand Master Nobade's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by am44mag View Post
    Geeze, thanks a lot. People from all walks of life own and enjoy those guns, but I guess they don't deserve good gunsmithing services, just part changers who don't know their muzzle from their butt. Most of my guns are older then the vast majority of this forum, but I sure as heck enjoy ARs too. I'm far from alone in that.
    Obviously not everyone who owns a semi auto military type rifle is a bad guy. But averages do apply, and after 35 years of experience obvious trends do emerge. Some types of firearms attract types of people who I would rather not have as customers, for various reasons. Of course there are exceptions, as there are everywhere.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nobade View Post
    Obviously not everyone who owns a semi auto military type rifle is a bad guy. But averages do apply, and after 35 years of experience obvious trends do emerge. Some types of firearms attract types of people who I would rather not have as customers, for various reasons. Of course there are exceptions, as there are everywhere.
    I see where you're coming from, but it's hard to tack someone down based on what gun they own. Really, the AR-15 is kind of like the modern bolt action .22 or pump action shotgun. Everyone's got one whether they use it or not. I can fully agree with tossing out the tactical ninja crowd if they're just there to waste your time. What about the guy like me who might walk in wanting an AR-10 rechambered for 358 Winchester?
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  4. #24
    Boolit Grand Master Nobade's Avatar
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    Hmm, interesting question. I'd have to ask you what your goals are for the rifle, what your timeline is, and what your budget is. Most likely by the time we had talked for an hour I would have recommended several barrel makers who produce those already, and you would go home to order one. You would possibly wonder why I wasn't excited to make you a new barrel, and I would be thinking about all the projects I need to do and the last hour I could have spent on the lathe getting work done. I will occasionally build AR barrels, but it's only worth it for guys using them for some sort of accuracy competition since you can buy very good high quality barrels for far less money than I can build you one for. Essentially it's not worth your time or mine.
    Quote Originally Posted by am44mag View Post
    I see where you're coming from, but it's hard to tack someone down based on what gun they own. Really, the AR-15 is kind of like the modern bolt action .22 or pump action shotgun. Everyone's got one whether they use it or not. I can fully agree with tossing out the tactical ninja crowd if they're just there to waste your time. What about the guy like me who might walk in wanting an AR-10 rechambered for 358 Winchester?

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by pietro View Post
    Nah - he just hadda be nuts...………………

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    You nailed it
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  6. #26
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    Back years ago when some enterprising high power shooters started working with 80 grn bullets and the long vlds in 223 they were tested in bolt rifles. When they proved out as being the equal t 30 cal at 600yds the service rifle shooters started converting to it. there were very few match grade 22 cal 1-7 twist barrels service rifle contour available so you had to buy a blank and find a smith to contour and time it correctly for an ar-15. One of the custom makers could do this ( kriegers was offering cut rifled heavy service rifle with bolt and extension) If they offered the 1-7 twist then it was a option most didn't till it really caught on.

    A gunsmith that can make the barrel from a blank correctly cutting the contour timing and locating the gas port and fit it is a true gunsmith. The guy who can only order pre fit barrels ( Barrels with all work done extension installed and bolt in ARs ) and install them is a parts changer. Contouring and timing takes time and extra work. Setting up so the gas port is in the groove then timing everything off it is a tedious job. Bolt actions are much faster and a full build custom bolt rifle probably pays better too.

    The gunsmith I used was very good and would do ARs for high power shooters and some others but the tactical and preppers drove him nuts, tying up time and then complaining about costs.

  7. #27
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    Funny this came up.
    This weekend I drove to a gunsmith to see about some work on an Enfield Mark V trials rifle. He was excited to be doing it. I then asked could he drill and tap a No. 3 sporter? Little over $50 bucks. Had one to show me how he would do it. Mossberg 500? Yep $50 with the current filler screws so threads stay clean if the rail is removed. I can drill and tap, have the tools and decent amount of experience but I'm sure I'll get a better job from a professional and at his price it is money well spent. I do have to drive an hour to get there but skill and an earned reputation in his craft make it worth the time.

    AR builders? Might well be a talented specialist serving a popular niche or an inexperienced parts changer. But if the fellow is still there doing AR assembly in 20 some years then he can be considered as successful as the fellow I dealt with last weekend. Good muffler and brake mechanic isn't a master mechanic but is still worth his pay. Guess there can be poor examples for both levels.
    Scrap.... because all the really pithy and emphatic four letter words were taken and we had to describe this source of casting material somehow so we added an "S" to what non casters and wives call what we collect.

    Kind of hard to claim to love America while one is hating half the Americans that disagree with you. One nation indivisible requires work.

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  8. #28
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    In my shop I used lathes, and Mills making fire arms.

    Making an AR never required either they are bolt together IMHO.

    Making them as an actual gunsmith project no matter who does the fitting NO.

    Way it is to me.

    Buy the best parts you can get and put it together. Fitting the top and lower together requires some knowledge but for run of the mill guns being put together No.

  9. #29
    Boolit Master scattershot's Avatar
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    IMO, there are a few good gunsmiths around, good luck finding one. Most are parts changers anymore.
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  10. #30
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    The fun part about being a gunsmith is dealing with customers. Today I got a call from someone asking how much powder he should use to proof his muzzle loader. Had to ask a few questions to find out what and why. He had a new factory barrel made from 12L14 in 50 cal. Then he proceeded to tell me what Dixie gunworks said about proof testing a barrel. I told him to work up a load that shot well starting with 60 grains and not to worry about proof testing unless he had an old forge welded barrel.
    There was a shop in Idaho that installed a sight on an old rifle for a customer. Good thing he tried to clean the bore before going to the range, there were screws sticking down in the bore. The customer took it back to the smith and was told that he forgot to cut the screws off. Customer told the smith he wanted a new barrel.
    There are a lot of people out there that can drill and tap a hole but getting the hole in the right spot and not doing damage takes a little more skill.
    I charge $30 a hole.

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Taylor View Post
    The fun part about being a gunsmith is dealing with customers. Today I got a call from someone asking how much powder he should use to proof his muzzle loader. Had to ask a few questions to find out what and why. He had a new factory barrel made from 12L14 in 50 cal. Then he proceeded to tell me what Dixie gunworks said about proof testing a barrel. I told him to work up a load that shot well starting with 60 grains and not to worry about proof testing unless he had an old forge welded barrel.
    There was a shop in Idaho that installed a sight on an old rifle for a customer. Good thing he tried to clean the bore before going to the range, there were screws sticking down in the bore. The customer took it back to the smith and was told that he forgot to cut the screws off. Customer told the smith he wanted a new barrel.
    There are a lot of people out there that can drill and tap a hole but getting the hole in the right spot and not doing damage takes a little more skill.
    I charge $30 a hole.
    I recall a so-called gunsmith who drilled through the barrel of a Sharps to mount sights. First shot, the sight took a trip.
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  12. #32
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    Had a factory Mowery shotgun that had the forend pin through the barrel. Called them and they said that was the other guys that use to own the shop and we don't stand by there work...sorry.

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Taylor View Post
    There was a shop in Idaho that installed a sight on an old rifle for a customer. Good thing he tried to clean the bore before going to the range, there were screws sticking down in the bore. The customer took it back to the smith and was told that he forgot to cut the screws off. Customer told the smith he wanted a new barrel.
    There are a lot of people out there that can drill and tap a hole but getting the hole in the right spot and not doing damage takes a little more skill.
    I charge $30 a hole.
    I would imagine that most DIYer would concentrate on getting all the holes lined up and many would not think that much about the depth. I've seen the end result of that at gun shows and flea markets.
    $30 a hole can add up but is still WAY less than the cost of a new barrel!
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  14. #34
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    I will put in something of a good word for "parts changers" in that changing a part and/or making adjustments has some value. It can also be a step on the way to becoming a gunsmith just as skut work in a tool room can be a stepping stone to a machine operator and eventually a machinist. Or parts changer and tune up person moving toward being an auto mechanic. Folks have to start someplace. Thing is to avoid presenting yourself as competent to work on brakes when you really only have the skills to do tune ups.

    The shop or trades person that says to me "we don't do that, you might want to check with...." they may not get that job but I may well come back for what they do provide if needed and won't speak ill of them for being honest about their limitations. Had an auto shop send me to a transmission shop who using experience was able to provide a minor (cost wise) fix. Auto shop said they could install a rebuilt but just didn't have the knowledge of the trans shop.

    Same thing happened with installing a 7 pin trailer plug and brake controller. Take it to this hitch shop, we would have to send it out to them if vehicle doesn't have a factory kit that plugs in. For what they wanted to charge at the hitch shop I took the Advil and went ahead and did it myself. But I do appreciate the auto shop telling me their limitations.

    I can drill and tap but I'll pay someone to do it if it increases the possibility of a better job and not consider the money wasted as long as the cost is reasonable. For highly skilled work well the workman is worthy of his wages as they say.
    Scrap.... because all the really pithy and emphatic four letter words were taken and we had to describe this source of casting material somehow so we added an "S" to what non casters and wives call what we collect.

    Kind of hard to claim to love America while one is hating half the Americans that disagree with you. One nation indivisible requires work.

    Feedback page http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...light=RogerDat

  15. #35
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    IMO there are very few real gunsmiths left and certainly very near none in my neck of the woods.
    The only one left around here is mostly retired and Very selective about what he gets involved with any more, the other got snached up by the Army when they found out how good he is.
    I do a lot of my own work but I am sure nowhere near being a true smith.
    There are a bunch of guys around here that claim to be smiths that assemble ARs but won't touch anything else.
    Then we also have the "Glocksmiths". I am not impressed with them either.
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  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by DCM View Post
    IMO there are very few real gunsmiths left and certainly very near none in my neck of the woods.
    The only one left around here is mostly retired and Very selective about what he gets involved with any more, the other got snached up by the Army when they found out how good he is.
    I do a lot of my own work but I am sure nowhere near being a true smith.
    There are a bunch of guys around here that claim to be smiths that assemble ARs but won't touch anything else.
    Then we also have the "Glocksmiths". I am not impressed with them either.
    Where in the upper midwest do you live? I know of 3 within an hour drive of me that are first class. One is Pat Laib who specializes shotguns, I'd bet every trap shooter in the country is familiar with him. Even E. Arthur Brown has a good gunsmith department.

  17. #37
    Boolit Master
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    We have some Great barrel makers and Riflesmiths but the Only real gunsmiths I know of in these parts are retired and Very selective.
    Ther is/was one in central WI but I am not sure he is still with us. I have heard there is an excellent Shotgunsmith in central WI but I have not dealt with him or needed his services. I believe we have a Few gunsmiths on Castboolits but they are not in my neck of the woods.
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  18. #38
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    I have a friend who is a plumber, owns his business. He said once that a large percentage of his calls could be handled by a novice. Unclogging a P-trap, changing a wax seal on a toilet, stuff like that. Gunsmithing can be a bit like that.

    I've had friends over the years who have suggested that I should become a professional gunsmith, and I say absolutely not. I'm pretty good at troubleshooting and fixing things that don't require specialized tools and tooling (have been helping friends with their stuff for decades), but when it comes to real gunsmithing I just don't have the training, experience, and tools to ever call myself a gunsmith. I also tell them I couldn't afford the pay cut.

    What my friends don't understand is that when I help them clean up and refinish a trashed stock, tear down and replace a broken spring in a lever action rifle, replace a broken firing pin in an ancient .22 rifle, or any number of things like that; they buy the parts and I donate my time. While it usually turns out real nice, I'm not real fast. If I ever charged for my time (which I don't), it would be expensive. If they took it to a smith, it would be expensive. In this day of cheap factory guns everyone expects cheap, cheap. I suspect the only way a gunsmith can make a decent living nowaday is to be good enough to have a reputation for excellent work, to attract customers willing to pay a fair price for quality work.

  19. #39
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    Does it make you wonder if there are so few 'smiths nowadays because there are so many more shooters who just want some parts changed out?
    I mean, if you look at all the aftermarket gadgets you can't help but notice a lot of them are junk but they sell. The Mall Ninjas and Chairborne Rangers can't buy enough of that stuff and just want someone to bolt it on quick so they can head for the range to spend an afternoon mag-dumping. Not all of them, of course, but the market is there and a lot of guys don't know what they really need.
    It gets scary when you think of how may shooters wouldn't know shoddy work until a part fell off or a barrel was ruined. I passed on an old single shot 12 gage years ago because someone had epoxied something to the barrel. When they changed their mind, they hacked off the offending part with a hand-held grinder. I didn't take any pictures, you'll just have to imagine how it looked.
    Sometimes I wonder if the reason there are so few real gunsmiths left is because there are so few customers who understand the value of a good 'smith.
    Last edited by JSnover; 06-23-2018 at 08:06 PM.
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  20. #40
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    My boss brought his brother's muzzle loader barrel to work and asked me to get it drilled and tapped for a scope by one of the tool makers.
    After that was done on the opposite side from the bases I super glued 4 #6 hex nuts with 4 #6 set screws so it looked like the base mounting screws were attached with nuts. His brother nearly fainted but we never got anymore home projects like that.
    EDG

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BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check