RotoMetals2RepackboxMidSouth Shooters SupplyTitan Reloading
WidenersLee PrecisionReloading EverythingInline Fabrication
Load Data
Page 3 of 3 FirstFirst 123
Results 41 to 57 of 57

Thread: Do modern Gunsmiths really 'smith, or, do they just 'assemble AR's'

  1. #41
    Boolit Grand Master uscra112's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Switzerland of Ohio
    Posts
    6,313
    Quote Originally Posted by EDG View Post
    My boss brought his brother's muzzle loader barrel to work and asked me to get it drilled and tapped for a scope by one of the tool makers.
    After that was done on the opposite side from the bases I super glued 4 #6 hex nuts with 4 #6 set screws so it looked like the base mounting screws were attached with nuts. His brother nearly fainted but we never got anymore home projects like that.
    ROFLMAO! I wish I'd thought of that!
    Cognitive Dissident

  2. #42
    Boolit Master
    DCM's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Upper midwest
    Posts
    1,681
    JSnover I believe you are correct, add to that most folks are not willing to pay for Quality workmanship also.

    EDG LOL!!! love it, I may borrow that some day when the time is right.
    "Don't worry what they think. In the end it is not between them and you, it is between you and God."

    Je suis Charlie!


    "You won't know until you Actually try it"

    "The impossible just takes longer."

    "Don't let them beat you down with their inexperience."

    "You'll never accomplish what you don't try. " - Moldmaker

  3. #43
    Boolit Buddy
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Northeast US
    Posts
    128
    I found these folks runs the whole range from the weekend "assembler" to the classical trained gunsmith. The real danger are the individuals who go beyond their capabilities. I don't know how many times I have asked the AR "assemblers", did you check the headspacing on the rifle after you finished assembling the AR or AK platform and you get the deer in the head lights look? Or they say, "What that?" Another question, I ask is, "Do you have insurance? in event something should happen based on his work?" You will be surprise how many folks do not have insurance if a gun blows up in someone's face. (Seen that happen to another gunsmith with a 10 gauge double when the chamber let loose from too much heat being applied to re-attach the top rib to the shotgun and the customer lost an eye. The gunsmith lost just about everything from the following law suits.) I also seen gunsmith who cannot say no and they sit on their customers rifles for years awaiting for the time they will acquire the knowledge to do the work which never happens. Generalized gunsmithing does not make money. You really have to fine someone who specializes in the gun or service that you need. If you want a new barrel it's best to sent the action to the barrel specialist and have them put the barrel on and headspace the chamber. If it a new stock sent the rifle to the stock specialist. If it's just replacing a broke part and the shooter is mechanically inclined. I will tell them to just order the part themselves and put it in themselves. On the other hand I have seen where a "customer" will bring in a completely disassembled Model 1896 Mauser Broomhandle in a shoe box wanting me to assembly his pistol. But of course there is always one or two parts that are misplaced! And they upset when I tell that it will cost them $75.00 an hour to put it together plus any parts that are missing, then I tell not to play gunsmith and that's why I charge that much for work and experience. If they do not like it they can find someone to assembly their pistol!! In a lot of case if I am to busy with other work I just tell that I cannot do it right now and that they should find someone else to help them.

  4. #44
    Boolit Grand Master

    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Location
    Northwest Ohio
    Posts
    14,455
    One of the Bosses at work went to a local gun show and picked up a demilled M14 receiver. Brought it into the tool room wanting me to weld it together and assemble a rifle with the selector welded up in the way state Association guns were. I refused telling him that project was good for 10 years. Then had to explain to him that if caught with it assembled into working rifle it was still a full auto rifle even though selector was welded in semi only. His reasoning was garands had been demilled and welded back together and were legal. He just couldn't understand the Garand wasn't selective fire weapon ever.

  5. #45
    Boolit Buddy
    Join Date
    Jun 2018
    Posts
    185
    Well, I have to say I do a LOT less 'Smithing' these days...
    The current craze of AR clones doesn't lend itself to any craftsmanship.

    I worked for a retired gunsmith before the Marines, did 16 years in the Marines, 20 something after, and I can't believe what passes for an AR (clone) these days.
    It takes a day just to explain the difference between a milspec AR version and what passes for an AR.
    The $299 farm/discount store specials scare me to look at them, I darn sure am NOT going to shoot one!

    There is just something about German silver, premium wood, machining so tight you can barely find the separation lines between pieces, bone case or rich blue finish I can't shake, loved it as a young kid, still gives me a thrill to this day.

    I mostly do jobber work, tool & die, but I'll make the time for a really good rifle job.

    The biggest problem I have with the current crop of $299 specials is their owners, I hate working for idiots that think a 16" barrel .223 chambered rifle is going to shoot 1,000 yards with white box discount ammo from a gun show, and they want me to mount a $60 bubble pack optic from wally-world so they can shoot that 1,000 yards...
    You KNOW when the $299 rifle with $60 optic doesn't shoot a decent group, it's going to be YOUR 'Fault' to everyone they meet from then on!

    Then there is the "Can you make it full auto on the down low?" (Usually followed by 'Dawg')
    The answer is always a loud "NO!" (Just in case the conversation is being recorded),
    I'm not doing 10 or 20 years because you want a 'Toy' and/or can't pass the BATFE/Homeland background check to get a legal full auto from a licenced class 3 dealer!

    Besides, semi auto fire scares the **** out of me in these pieces of junk, there is no way I'd try full auto!

    The next class of customer has already been discussed, the 'Tacti-Cool' owner.
    I have no interest in hanging the third laser, cappuccino maker, selfie stick, aircraft landing lights, rear view mirror, tampon dispenser, the fifth handle/hand grip, harmonica, or what ever goofy accessory they found on eBay on any rifle...

    If you *THINK* you've seen it all, then this comes along...
    Steel yourself before you click on the link!
    https://media.karousell.com/media/ph...1_4539c4ab.jpg

  6. #46
    Boolit Master

    lefty o's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Posts
    2,187
    Quote Originally Posted by JeepHammer View Post
    Well, I have to say I do a LOT less 'Smithing' these days...
    The current craze of AR clones doesn't lend itself to any craftsmanship.

    I worked for a retired gunsmith before the Marines, did 16 years in the Marines, 20 something after, and I can't believe what passes for an AR (clone) these days.
    It takes a day just to explain the difference between a milspec AR version and what passes for an AR.
    The $299 farm/discount store specials scare me to look at them, I darn sure am NOT going to shoot one!

    There is just something about German silver, premium wood, machining so tight you can barely find the separation lines between pieces, bone case or rich blue finish I can't shake, loved it as a young kid, still gives me a thrill to this day.

    I mostly do jobber work, tool & die, but I'll make the time for a really good rifle job.

    The biggest problem I have with the current crop of $299 specials is their owners, I hate working for idiots that think a 16" barrel .223 chambered rifle is going to shoot 1,000 yards with white box discount ammo from a gun show, and they want me to mount a $60 bubble pack optic from wally-world so they can shoot that 1,000 yards...
    You KNOW when the $299 rifle with $60 optic doesn't shoot a decent group, it's going to be YOUR 'Fault' to everyone they meet from then on!

    Then there is the "Can you make it full auto on the down low?" (Usually followed by 'Dawg')
    The answer is always a loud "NO!" (Just in case the conversation is being recorded),
    I'm not doing 10 or 20 years because you want a 'Toy' and/or can't pass the BATFE/Homeland background check to get a legal full auto from a licenced class 3 dealer!

    Besides, semi auto fire scares the **** out of me in these pieces of junk, there is no way I'd try full auto!

    The next class of customer has already been discussed, the 'Tacti-Cool' owner.
    I have no interest in hanging the third laser, cappuccino maker, selfie stick, aircraft landing lights, rear view mirror, tampon dispenser, the fifth handle/hand grip, harmonica, or what ever goofy accessory they found on eBay on any rifle...

    If you *THINK* you've seen it all, then this comes along...
    Steel yourself before you click on the link!
    https://media.karousell.com/media/ph...1_4539c4ab.jpg
    that is obviously for those who dont have their own set!

  7. #47
    Boolit Grand Master

    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Location
    Northwest Ohio
    Posts
    14,455
    Oh now the capachino maker is traditional since one model rifle issued in the civil war had a coffee grinder mounted on the buttstock of every so many rifles. LOL

  8. #48
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Nov 2017
    Location
    brisbane ,qld,australia
    Posts
    2,125
    Unfortunately,with rent,taxes,all kinds of local authority fees,charges, and special levies,you have to do what the customer wants if you plan on staying financial.....and the guy coming thru the door is a customer,you just have to sell him something..........After all,how many auto mechanics make the parts they fit.

  9. #49
    Boolit Buddy MaLar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Location
    Free state of Idaho
    Posts
    457
    Quote Originally Posted by edg View Post
    my boss brought his brother's muzzle loader barrel to work and asked me to get it drilled and tapped for a scope by one of the tool makers.
    After that was done on the opposite side from the bases i super glued 4 #6 hex nuts with 4 #6 set screws so it looked like the base mounting screws were attached with nuts. His brother nearly fainted but we never got anymore home projects like that.
    lol snort snort!
    Those who choose violence as a first option are typically confronted by somebody else using violence as a last resort.

    Live a good, honorable life. Then when you get older and think back, you’ll enjoy it a second time.

    Do not confuse my being polite for weakness.
    Using MX Linux 21


    From the free state of Idaho

  10. #50
    In Remembrance
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Near Mazomanie, Wi.
    Posts
    1,195
    A while back I wanted a 40 cal octagon barrel fitted to a Trapdoor action. There is an experienced gunsmith 16 miles away, but his turn around is over 18 months. I found this local guy who used to work with an actual 'smith and was working on his own now. I asked him about the job and he said it would cost $250.00. When I brought in the parts he hemmed and hawed, said it would be over $350.00, depending. I checked on the job a couple of months later and he said he wouldn't (read....couldn't) do it. I then contacted a guy who was recommended to me on ASSRA. He said the guy I took the parts to first wasn't much of a real 'smith if he couldn't thread a barrel. I sent him the parts, he fitted the barrel to the receiver and rechambered it for $125.00. Very nice work, and I had it returned in less than 2 months. So, just do your homework; there are honest, competent people out there. Be aware though, if they ARE good, there may be a bit of a wait.

  11. #51
    Boolit Buddy
    Join Date
    Jun 2018
    Posts
    185
    Respectfully,
    I find it's not building from scratch, heat treating, ect.
    It's about getting what ever is shady right as it can be.

    I watched Remington 700 actions being made about 15 years ago during a tour of the plant.
    I watched tubing being cut off on a hack saw. No parting on a lathe, no CNC saw, just a plain old power hack saw.
    Then the sections were bundled together and held against a grinding stone against a perpendicular stop.
    This is a bundle, about 10 at a time.
    They shifted and moved as they were being faced off.
    The next step was forcing the tubing onto a reamer to size the inside of the tube.
    This was a tapered reamer, no attempt to center the cut with the outside profile of the tubing.
    Then the section was dropped into a 'V' clamp and forced onto a tap.
    No attempt to center the threads, and other than the 'V' block no attempt to align the barrel threads with the bore. Not even a pilot on the tap...

    I have a standard I run rifles through (I don't do many pistols),
    I pull the barrel and true/square the receiver, usually the front receiver face isn't square with the bore.

    Then it's checking the threads, since most 'Off The Shelf' receivers aren't threaded on a lathe, the threads aren't true with the receiver bore.
    Once the receiver is true/square, it's making sure the barrel threads are deep enough and square.
    You wouldn't believe how many recoil lugs are tapered one direction or another, and that misaligns the barrel with receiver.

    Once everything is lined up, it's time to lap the bolt face & lugs square with the bore.
    You can lap tight spots in the receiver/bolt interface, but if the bolt is sloppy there is very little you can do.
    There are a couple of 'tricks', but you are limited...

    Once everything in action/barrel is square, then I hang the barreled action between centers and check the alignment for sights/optics mounts.
    Nothing quite like having sights/optics line up with the bore, no shifting sights/optics way off center line to get a zero.

    Now, keep in mind, if the sights/optics are misaligned on the RECEIVER, you can get a zero at one fixed range, but it will shoot on one side of zero at shorter distances, shift to the other side at longer distances...
    The closer/farther you shoot, the more it shifts...

    Since in the Marines, we shot a standard weight/velocity/BC round, things like 'Spin Drift' (stupid term) was predetermined, and when optics are angled, that standard calculation is way off of the tables...
    I mean WAY off the tables, like off a 8 foot target backboard at 800 yards!

    There are little things, like using set screws to get the cocking piece locked up level on the receiver.
    This gets the trigger/sear square so the trigger work means something...

    When everything else is done, then I cut/polish the chamber for headspace.
    Sometimes headspace is WAY too long, so it's new threads on the barrel to set the chamber back, the trimming the chamber end, cutting for extractor if required, and proper headspace.

    With AR clones, much of the same rules apply.
    Facing off the front of the receiver square with the BCG bore gets the barrel aligned with the upper receiver.
    Very few AR uppers are faced off, and between the forging, threading & anodizing processes, it's common for the upper to cock the barrel 0.030"-0.040", and up to 0.100" cocked out of square.

    Keep in mind, without the barrel/chamber nut being true with upper receiver bore, the bolt locking lugs CAN NOT lock up solidly, one or two lugs will make partial contact, but most won't even touch!
    I call putting all the firing stress on one or two lugs DANGEROUS!

    I lap the upper for size.
    Between 'Questionable' machining & irregular anodizing, it's not uncommon to have a really rough surface, and not evenly sized.
    Lapping gets the bore straight walled and even, and smooth it down so it's not so abrasive to the bolt carrier.

    Once the upper is sized, squared & true, again, I hang it between centers in the bore & check optic/sight alignment with the bore.
    Since I don't want to cut the upper (if it's out of alignment), with Picatinny mounts/rings, I mark the mount/rings for front/rear and right/left and machine the mount/rings to match the misalignment of the mount with bore.
    Rings being cheaper than upper, I pretty much think this is the better end of the compromise.

    I can't seem to get owners to understand the importance of marking rings front/rear, right/left and then LAPPING the optics saddles/caps round & true with the bore.
    It takes about 15 minutes to imprint witness marks into caps/saddles so the get back on in the correct positions, and turned the right way for the bores to line up round & true...
    This means no bent, ovaled or crushed tubes, and with the cost of even a mediocre optic, it's worth 15 minutes of shop time.

    I guess if you are going with the $49.99 bubble pack optic & ring package from Wally-World, it doesn't matter much, but I see them screw Leupold and similar priced optics into $15 eBay rings, then blame the rifle when it won't shoot on the tables...

    Then there are issues with the gas tube fitting the BCG interface.
    While gas tubes are pretty consistent (suprisingly), the gas blocks and barrel gas port drillings are often screwed up.
    When the gas tube is 'Short', you can take a little bit of the bends out to make it seal with the gas key on the BCG. When it's 'Long', you put a little more bend in the gas tube.
    Some won't fit no matter what you do, time for a new gas block...

    Tuning the gas system is a nightmare with the HUGE difference in loads.
    Since you can't explain to the owner the gas pulse is both pressure & duration (time), they ALWAYS break out the hand drill & expand the gas port in the barrel & block before they come see you!

    Then there are the 'Idiot' walk-ins...
    The guy that did his own ring mount, ran the wrong screw into the bolt and then twisted it off, can't get the bolt open, but YOU are supposed to 'Fix It' for $5 IMMEDATELY...

    The guy that didn't own a drill stop and drilled all the way through the barrel trying to expand the gas port size...

    The guy that shows up with the firearm in a box, took it apart, let it lay around for two years, lost parts, and thinks YOU are going to have everything in stock and will slap it together in 30 seconds for $5.

    The guy that watched a YouTube video and ground his trigger into junk trying to do a trigger job, and YOU are going to fix it with super glue in 3 minutes while he waits...

    The one I liked the best was the guy that missed half a dozen rabbits with his new pump gun, grabbed it by the barrel and beat a phone pole with it... 3 bends in the barrel, barrel/receiver so sprung/bent they wouldn't hold together, broke the stock off, and thought I could 'Fix' it overnight so he could hunt again tomorrow!
    The best part... It had a loaded round in the chamber! (Talk about an ultra safe trigger!)

    Even the lazy orange shop cat looked at him like an idiot...
    Last edited by JeepHammer; 07-06-2018 at 11:01 AM.

  12. #52
    Boolit Master

    leebuilder's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2014
    Location
    Nova Scotia
    Posts
    1,029
    I almost peed jeep hammer. Your customers must have left your place and came up here. I don't do right away, "if it's that important drop by tomorrow"
    Had one guy insist that I take the parts he needed off one of my rifles, that idea flew like a lead kite.
    Apparently 15.00 is to much for a custom lathe cut screw, at a moments notice.
    Be well
    When you read the fine print you get an education
    when you ignore the fine print you get experience

  13. #53
    Boolit Buddy
    Join Date
    Jun 2018
    Posts
    185
    I get some winners...

    An older Remington 870 came in, complaint was 'Sticky' trigger...
    Found a maple leaf seed and about a pound of dirt/carbon/crud lodged firmly in the receiver & trigger group, and what looked like hardened chocolate syrup in the trigger group.
    After 3 DAYS in the ultrasonic cleaner the trigger group loosened up enough to operate.
    I asked the guy what he had been using for gun oil... Used cooking oil!

    A really nice 1917 revolver came in with the complaint of 'Backfiring'...
    The guy was carrying a ratty box of military steel jacketed ammo FROM 1931!
    Said they found pistol/ammo in 'Grandpas' belongings and tried to shoot it,
    Not one, not Two, but THREE bullets lodged in the barrel!
    Barrel looked like a snake that swallowed an egg! "Can't you just drill it out?, we really want to shoot it."

    The guy that had 'Blow Back' complaints in a .223 Ruger M77, asked me to check headspace.
    I couldn't find a thing wrong with it. Fired it several times and it did great.
    I asked him to come by and shoot it, he showed up with a box of .222 ammo, 3 rounds spent, necks blown out.
    --- Think I found the problem!

    An old double with ears showed up, 130+ years old if it was a day, worked to death, simply worn out, the guy wants me to chamber it for 3-1/2" 'Turkey Magnums'...

    Mr. Tacti-Cool comes in, has everything you can add onto a shotgun clamped on this mossburg knockoff (Mavrick I think).
    The SINGLE rod from fore grip to action is bent almost double, and the receiver is sprung/gapped.
    Wants me to show him how to 'Un-Jam' it, "In Combat, Like the NAVY Seals do!".

    The all time best was a guy that starts the conversation with, "You do a lot of cops guns don't you?"
    And proceeds to tell me he wants me to be an "Expert Witness" where he's suing a firearms maker because he shot himself in the butt cheek trying to holster his handgun.
    I ask to see the firearm, he says, "The cops took it".
    I ask why, he finally admits he's a FELON and wasn't supposed to have a firearm in the first place!
    Too bad the holster wasn't in front so he didn't reproduce!

    Sometimes it doesn't pay to get out of bed...
    Last edited by JeepHammer; 07-12-2018 at 08:03 AM.

  14. #54
    Boolit Grand Master Nobade's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    SE WV
    Posts
    6,215
    And people wonder why we don't do general gunsmithing...

  15. #55
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    gardners pa.
    Posts
    3,443
    I don't call my self a gunsmith. but i have made my own barrels on my rifling machine i made my self. made new pims for old single shots. relined barrels. made adjustable scope mounts and installed them. made long slide 1911 from cut up slides bought from demilled guns. shortened a 95 mauser action and bolt to use 7.62x39.

  16. #56
    Moderator
    Texas by God's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2016
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    14,334
    Quote Originally Posted by bob208 View Post
    I don't call my self a gunsmith. but i have made my own barrels on my rifling machine i made my self. made new pims for old single shots. relined barrels. made adjustable scope mounts and installed them. made long slide 1911 from cut up slides bought from demilled guns. shortened a 95 mauser action and bolt to use 7.62x39.
    I'll call you one.

    Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

  17. #57
    Boolit Bub ANick57's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2017
    Location
    Wetside of WA state
    Posts
    42
    Quote Originally Posted by EDG View Post
    My boss brought his brother's muzzle loader barrel to work and asked me to get it drilled and tapped for a scope by one of the tool makers.
    After that was done on the opposite side from the bases I super glued 4 #6 hex nuts with 4 #6 set screws so it looked like the base mounting screws were attached with nuts. His brother nearly fainted but we never got anymore home projects like that.
    BRILLIANT!!!! That one would only have been better had I thought of it back when... as it is, I had a face and a name to go with that tale.

Page 3 of 3 FirstFirst 123

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check