Do modern Gunsmiths really 'smith, or, do they just 'assemble AR's'

[kens]

You tell me,
I don't want to be a negative person.
I asked a 'gunsmith' how much to drill/tap for a Unertl scope blocks.
He got that 'deer in headlights' look.
He asked what kind of gun (does it matter) for drill/tap?
He asked to see the project (it is a octagon barrel)
He asked if it was a lever action or something (it a STRAIGHT octagon, the simplest of all)
OMG!!!! it is a muzzle loader with a STRAIGHT octagon barrel, and all I want is drill/tap for scope blocks.
OMG !! a straight octagon barrel that is FLAT on all sides, and NO taper,,,,,and this guy is asking me questions......
Do these modern 'gunsmiths' really 'smith' any thing or do they merely 'assemble AR's' ????

[pietro]

.

IME, there are real gunsmiths, and parts-changers that call themselves gunsmiths - and I hope to never meet the latter again.

.

[lefty o]

like any other trade, they run the gambit. honestly, id rather have the guy asking questions about the project, instead of just saying yes whether or not he can handle the job.

[mcdaniel.mac]

like any other trade, they run the gambit. honestly, id rather have the guy asking questions about the project, instead of just saying yes whether or not he can handle the job.

Agreed. I had a "gunsmith" say he could fit a HiPower barrel. Big mistake. I got back a pile of parts, a missing slide release, and a note that said sorry. The next time I needed a smith I looked for someone who manufactured actions, fitted parts for custom guns, and could show me an example of what I wanted.

[OS OK]

You tell me,
I don't want to be a negative person.
I asked a 'gunsmith' how much to drill/tap for a Unertl scope blocks.
He got that 'deer in headlights' look.
He asked what kind of gun (does it matter) for drill/tap?
He asked to see the project (it is a octagon barrel)
He asked if it was a lever action or something (it a STRAIGHT octagon, the simplest of all)
OMG!!!! it is a muzzle loader with a STRAIGHT octagon barrel, and all I want is drill/tap for scope blocks.
OMG !! a straight octagon barrel that is FLAT on all sides, and NO taper,,,,,and this guy is asking me questions......
Do these modern 'gunsmiths' really 'smith' any thing or do they merely 'assemble AR's' ????

Do you have any idea of how many 'Bubba's' come in asking how to do something...you then ask a short question and don't give the particulars, heck it coulda been a tank barrel for all the smith knew. So then, now your upset because he couldn't read your mind? C-mon...think about it...

As far as he was concerned you were 'Bubba on a mission'...the guy took interest enough to try to help you out....hmmmmm...what's the world coming to?

[Shawlerbrook]

Agree with all the above. I know some true artists and some shade tree mechanics.

[Nobade]

I specialize in bolt action rifles, and can do just about anything to one you might like. And I don't allow AR types or others like that in the shop. I just don't want to deal with the typical type of person who owns them. So no, not all 'smiths are parts changers. But a whole lot are.

[nagantguy]

From bubba to armorer to ‘Smith to artist.

[leebuilder]

I am no gunsmith, got no paper that says certified. I am a machinist and marine engineer and enjoy what I do. I have learned alot about peaple since I opened my doors to peaple. I find I can make the "unobtainable" part and fix milsurps something alot of gunsmith won't touch. I assemble mall ninja sks type rifles, I don't realy like it but to most ninja types it's a first rifle and a smile they have when it's done is worth it. There are alot of uneducated folk that assume miracles happen alot, they don't and when they do happen it won't be free. The price is the price, non negotiatable. Or its free and you have to leave in under a minute and you and your friends can't come back ever.
The trick is never take on a job you can't do.
Keep your mouth shut.
If a customer refers to the interweb they are asked to leave.
If they bring their wife and she is calling the shots, both are banished.
Assembling parts into a rifle be it an AR or target 22 takes skill and time all are worth something.

Be safe

[roverboy]

The title cracked me up because, a lot just assemble AR's. I think some don't even realize there's other rifles besides AR's.

[sparky45]

Can't add much to the conversation, but I found (4) Gunsmith's in my area that have done work for me and the work has been better than satisfactory. One completely prepped a M12 Winchester for re-bluing (exceptional work); one fit a H&R Handi barrel (great job); one fixed a ejector on a Stevens 410 (very good job) and recently I shipped another Handi rifle out of state to a gentleman in Arkansas (member here) that re-bored the barrel for a different caliber (exceptional work). Gunsmith's are out there and I'm glad I've been able to locate some of them.

[dragon813gt]

Like all professions people specialize. Wether people want to admit or not there’s a huge market for AR rifles. It makes sense for someone to specialize in them. The ones by me advertise what work they perform. There are very few actual gunsmiths. The vast majority work on ARs and Glocks. It is what it is. There are lots of good smiths around if you don’t mind shipping your guns to them. This is the route I choose anymore. I’d rather send it someone that I know will do the job correctly rather than take a chance on a local guy.

[OS OK]

Say what you like about 'AR smith assemblers' but this smith had to have a Dr's degree in tactical engineering to do this!

[pietro]

Say what you like about 'AR smith assemblers' but this smith had to have a Dr's degree in tactical engineering to do this!

Nah - he just hadda be nuts...………………

.

[Tatume]

… He got that 'deer in headlights' look. He asked what kind of gun (does it matter) for drill/tap?

Sometimes it does matter. If the steel is hardened, like some receiver rings, then it must be spot annealed before drilling. That costs extra, and I'd only want someone who knows the job and has done it before.

[sharps4590]

As with every occupation that exists, there is poor, mediocre, good and excellent. My local gunsmith is a wizard with metal and machine tools. Stock repairs he will undertake but only IF he's confident he can do them satisfactorily. He's turned me down on a few stock problems but never with anything to do with the action, barrel or trigger of anything. He has a passion for metalwork but not woodwork. Best thing is he's dead honest about his likes and dislikes, strengths and weaknesses and, what he's good at and what he isn't so good at. How can a customer ask for more than that?

[country gent]

I would bet there are now gunsmiths out there that have never drilled and tapped for a external adjustment scope. Theres a lot more involved is this job than just drilling tapping 4 holes on location. barrel wall thickness / contour. some of the newer light weight barrels 7-8" from the action may be to thin walled for threads. some contours may create the need for special blocks to get a zero. while most barrels arnt hard, there have been some made from very tough materials that are harder to work with.
You then run into the equipment machines he has issue. The better have accurate machines that can be used with enough travel to do the job in one set up. Some have very small light weight equipment that may require moving the barrel to change tools or reposition from one block to the next. Some use a drill press and fixture to locate here barrels need to fit into tooling and hole spacing needs to match the drill jigs he has.
A "straight" octagon or round contour barrel may be or may not. I have a straight octagon contour barrel that has slightly varying angles of the flats and high and low spot ( not a lot but its there) probably not from the machining but from the hand polishing of the flats thru draw filing and sanding. Again for accurate work this needs to be taken into consideration. Another area this comes from is table rock when machining the contour. traveling 20"-34" a machines table will be low on one end ast it sets and as it travels over center the weight of the table puts the play in the gibs in the other direction creating a slightly rounded convex surface.
I respect the craftsman who asks questions and finds out before hand whats going on and whats expected, Hes the best chance of a satisfactory finished project. He finds out what is expected before he sets up.
Last is the basic and most important the skill level of the person you have selected. Some are willing to research and do the homework to do a good job, some think they know and give an iffy job and last is the one that's scared of anything he hasn't done before. Finding a gunsmith today that's experienced in the unertal set up is going to be an older gentleman who may have other better paying jobs in the shop.

[GARD72977]

It's on 7.2 inches center to center. What mill cans travel 8 inches?

I agree with the OP. I can see the gun smith asking curiously but if he has a deer in the headlights look I would move on to some one else.

I'm no smith but I have a tapered Octogon I'm going to drill soon. Just bought a unertl. I ask a Gunsmith at work a few questions and he had good answers. My favorite was " I've walked many a mile around a barrel in the vise before I drilled it!"

He can tell you about going to the grocery store and it sounds like an epic adventure.

[megasupermagnum]

There are certainly real gunsmiths around, and I am luck enough to be near a handful. I do know of a number of the type you describe. I know a guy that was honest, yeah they really only put together AR's. The ones that baffle me are the ones that say all they can do is mount scopes (he couldn't drill or tap), sight in, change stocks etc. I mean really? There are guys that are either too lazy or incompetent to mount their own dang scope and sight in? How do those people expect to be able to load their own magazine?

[uscra112]

I specialize in bolt action rifles, and can do just about anything to one you might like. And I don't allow AR types or others like that in the shop. I just don't want to deal with the typical type of person who owns them. So no, not all 'smiths are parts changers. But a whole lot are.

An awful lot of AR armorers think they are smiths. We need to get that cleared up. If you can't make, fit, temper and finish a part from raw stock, you ain't a gunsmith.

Personally, I do pre-WW1 single shots for myself only, so I don't have any Parkenfarkers coming to a shop counter demanding my time. But I have been known to pack up and leave the range when a bunch of AR rambos shows up. Arrogance and ignorance in equal measure, like as not.