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Thread: Duplicating a cartridge no one cares about 7.62x38R Nagant

  1. #1
    Boolit Master
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    Duplicating a cartridge no one cares about 7.62x38R Nagant

    Yea, the 7.62x28R is a weird case and no one cares...so I tried to recreate something a bit better than the factory Fiochi. What's wrong with the Fiochi? There are large carbon stains around the case mouth indicating it is not gas sealing.
    I wish this cartridge was used in a better gun. The trigger pull on the 1895 Nagant is ferocious. Imagine a high quality double action, break top, gas seal, 8 shot revolver made to modern standards. Maybe even a super weird one like all that stuff on a Chiopa Rhino, but I digress.

    Anyway, here's what I used...

    RCBS spray case lube

    1. Lee 7.62x38R sizer die

    2. Lee .313 expander/decapping rod

    3. Lyman M-die for 30 carbine, adjust for slight flare.

    4. Hornady seating die with the sleeve (just makes the bullets self align)

    5. Push bullet below the case mouth using the M-die again...the seating die will only make the bullet flush to the case mouth. I know it sounds odd but using the M-die easily lets you push the bullet below the case mouth.

    6. Lee 7.62x39 FCD It turns out the Lee Factory Crimp Die for the 7.62x39 does a really good imitation of the factory weird crimp on the 7.69x38R. You can use the regular roll crimp but it's not as pretty. Turn the case a couple of times to get a perfectly even crimp all around.

    7. Lee #19 shell holder.


    1. 84 grain RCBS full wadcutter 32 S&W Long cast bullet.
    2. Coated with 3 coats of Hi-Tek Bronze
    3. Sized to .311 using a Lee bullet sizer die.
    4. Lubed with Auqualube 5000

    4.0 grains of Unique
    Federal 100 small pistol primer

    More powerful than factory Fiochi.
    Completely sealed case mouth. No carbon leakage at all.
    The cases were reloaded 3 times and looked fine. I'm not sure how long they'll last but it will be quite a while.
    Accuracy was superior without a doubt. It would be excellent if it didn't have a Neanderthal trigger pull.
    The good thing about science is that it's true no matter if you believe it or not. (Neil DeGrasse Tyson)

    I was scolding my 5-year old for her and her friends making a giant mess in her room. She said they all did it. So I asked her: If all her friends jumped off a cliff, would she do it too? She said, "Oh no daddy! I would go to the bottom and try to catch them! They're my friends." Man, either I have a great kid or she has a stupid father.

  2. #2
    Boolit Master Nobade's Avatar
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    If you shim the mainspring with some leather like you do with a SAA, you can reduce the trigger pull considerably.
    "Quemadmoeum gladis nemeinum occidit, occidentis telum est."

  3. #3
    Boolit Master
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    Shim it in the "V"? I might try that. All the other ways of bending it are too dangerous. Those springs are just about unobtainable. The last one I saw went for something over $70.00 on eBay....and there have been none to see in quite a while.
    The good thing about science is that it's true no matter if you believe it or not. (Neil DeGrasse Tyson)

    I was scolding my 5-year old for her and her friends making a giant mess in her room. She said they all did it. So I asked her: If all her friends jumped off a cliff, would she do it too? She said, "Oh no daddy! I would go to the bottom and try to catch them! They're my friends." Man, either I have a great kid or she has a stupid father.

  4. #4
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    Hat is off to you for taking something that marginals worked and using your mind and tools at your disposal to make it better!!

  5. #5
    Boolit Master MOA's Avatar
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    AbitNutz. sure would be interested in some images of the cartridge that you worked on. Sounds like you took on the challenge and came out the winner.

  6. #6
    Boolit Master
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    I reload that cartridge myself, but I use 32-20 seater with 25-20 stem, which pushes bullet under case mouth. It's a work of love for sure

  7. #7
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by kayala View Post
    I reload that cartridge myself, but I use 32-20 seater with 25-20 stem, which pushes bullet under case mouth. It's a work of love for sure
    I was looking for something cleaner, like what you did, but I didn't have anything on hand that would fill the bill.
    The good thing about science is that it's true no matter if you believe it or not. (Neil DeGrasse Tyson)

    I was scolding my 5-year old for her and her friends making a giant mess in her room. She said they all did it. So I asked her: If all her friends jumped off a cliff, would she do it too? She said, "Oh no daddy! I would go to the bottom and try to catch them! They're my friends." Man, either I have a great kid or she has a stupid father.

  8. #8
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by MOA View Post
    AbitNutz. sure would be interested in some images of the cartridge that you worked on. Sounds like you took on the challenge and came out the winner.
    I'll post some pictures...will bore most folks but there was some satisfaction in it working at all.
    The good thing about science is that it's true no matter if you believe it or not. (Neil DeGrasse Tyson)

    I was scolding my 5-year old for her and her friends making a giant mess in her room. She said they all did it. So I asked her: If all her friends jumped off a cliff, would she do it too? She said, "Oh no daddy! I would go to the bottom and try to catch them! They're my friends." Man, either I have a great kid or she has a stupid father.

  9. #9
    Boolit Master


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    Promise I won’t be board

  10. #10
    Boolit Master
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    I had the lee die also. It would not push the bullet past the case mouth using fiochi brass. Some people used a small screw put into the die to lengthen it. I used a led bullet that I was loading in the Nagant brass. It was a 90 or 95 gr lead rnfp bullet I put in my seater die below the seater stem. It never fell out and gave me enuf adj to seat the bullet to the proper depth. It worked good

  11. #11
    Boolit Master
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    I forgot to add any body looking for parts for there Nagant revolver check out jack first gun shop. They make a bunch of parts nobody eals has. Just do a search for them. Also foichi brass I had newer and older made brass. Some of the newer brass a number lee 19 shell holder fits the brass. It has a grove above the rim. The older brass didint have this so the lee # 19 would not fit. I put my brass in a drill and spun a hack saw blade right above the rim to create a small shallow grove. This kept me from having the same brand of brass and using two different shell holders

  12. #12
    Boolit Master Nobade's Avatar
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    It's been a long time since I was playing with the nagant revolver, but I did discover the real point to it. Shooting black powder. All the fouling stays in the bore, and kept to it's pressure limits it is quite a bit more powerful with black than it is with smokeless. Extremely accurate as well. If you haven't tried it, I recommend doing so. That way you get to see what this funny little revolver is really capable of.
    "Quemadmoeum gladis nemeinum occidit, occidentis telum est."

  13. #13
    Boolit Master 15meter's Avatar
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    Hey, I even went the reform from .223 cases just to see if it could be done. Wanted to make sure I would have a steady supply of brass in case the factory stuff turned into unobtainium.

    Learned the hard way either you trim them long to fit into the barrel as designed or trim them shorter than the cylinder.

    In between and they bell over the mouth of the chamber on firing and are "interesting" to get out. Usually accompanied by language not allowed on this site.
    Last edited by 15meter; 06-17-2018 at 06:24 PM.

  14. #14
    Boolit Master
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    I found one thing out...if you make a mistake and need to take a competed cartridge apart...forget it. There's no way one of those kinetic bullet pullers can generate enough force to get the bullet past that crimp. In desperation, I've considered drilling it out or something similar to that.

    What you do to get one apart to save the brass? You can't use a conventional bullet puller and a kinetic one doesn't work...believe me. Now what?
    The good thing about science is that it's true no matter if you believe it or not. (Neil DeGrasse Tyson)

    I was scolding my 5-year old for her and her friends making a giant mess in her room. She said they all did it. So I asked her: If all her friends jumped off a cliff, would she do it too? She said, "Oh no daddy! I would go to the bottom and try to catch them! They're my friends." Man, either I have a great kid or she has a stupid father.

  15. #15
    Boolit Master Nobade's Avatar
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    Why crimp them so much? Fiocci does on their ammo but it's completely not needed. Check out the Russian military ammo, very little crimp.
    "Quemadmoeum gladis nemeinum occidit, occidentis telum est."

  16. #16
    Boolit Master
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    I'd try drilling a hole into the bullet then use a coarse screw into that hole and use that to pull the bullet out? Pulling a bullet out of those Nagant rounds is going to be a tough job, definitely.

  17. #17
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nobade View Post
    Why crimp them so much? Fiocci does on their ammo but it's completely not needed. Check out the Russian military ammo, very little crimp.
    You know, that's a good point. I've never seen any surplus Russian ammo. It doesn't have that much of a crimp, like the Fiocho and the Privi Partizan ammo?

    Now I'm wondering why P/P and Fiochi do that weird crimp? I assumed it was to build up pressure in the case to blow it out completely to seal the brass against the chamber/barrel. The factory Fiochi fails to do that as it still shows some carbon leakage around the case mouth and down the case. My home rolled shows no such streaks. It seals completely.

    I'm going to try backing off on the crimp and see what happens...
    The good thing about science is that it's true no matter if you believe it or not. (Neil DeGrasse Tyson)

    I was scolding my 5-year old for her and her friends making a giant mess in her room. She said they all did it. So I asked her: If all her friends jumped off a cliff, would she do it too? She said, "Oh no daddy! I would go to the bottom and try to catch them! They're my friends." Man, either I have a great kid or she has a stupid father.

  18. #18
    Boolit Master WRideout's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nobade View Post
    It's been a long time since I was playing with the nagant revolver, but I did discover the real point to it. Shooting black powder. All the fouling stays in the bore, and kept to it's pressure limits it is quite a bit more powerful with black than it is with smokeless. Extremely accurate as well. If you haven't tried it, I recommend doing so. That way you get to see what this funny little revolver is really capable of.
    That is how I used up a can of 4f BP that a friend gave me. It makes a most impressive cloud of smoke at the range, and is a pretty powerful little cartridge.
    Wayne
    What doesn't kill you makes you stronger - or else it gives you a bad rash.
    Venison is free-range, organic, non-GMO and gluten-free

  19. #19
    Boolit Master WRideout's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 15meter View Post
    Hey, I even went the reform from .223 cases just to see if it could be done. Wanted to make sure I would have a steady supply of brass in case the factory stuff turned into unobtainium.

    Learned the hard way either you trim them long to fit into the barrel as designed or trim them shorter than the cylinder.

    In between and they bell over the mouth of the chamber on firing and are "interesting" to get out. Usually accompanied by language not allowed on this site.
    Maybe you could tell us how you formed those cases? (Or you could put it in the case forming area on the forum.) I wasn't having any luck with that, and found that the rims are too small diameter to hold the cases in place.

    Wayne
    What doesn't kill you makes you stronger - or else it gives you a bad rash.
    Venison is free-range, organic, non-GMO and gluten-free

  20. #20
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by WRideout View Post
    Maybe you could tell us how you formed those cases? (Or you could put it in the case forming area on the forum.) I wasn't having any luck with that, and found that the rims are too small diameter to hold the cases in place.

    Wayne
    Yea, for sure...how did the rim work?
    The good thing about science is that it's true no matter if you believe it or not. (Neil DeGrasse Tyson)

    I was scolding my 5-year old for her and her friends making a giant mess in her room. She said they all did it. So I asked her: If all her friends jumped off a cliff, would she do it too? She said, "Oh no daddy! I would go to the bottom and try to catch them! They're my friends." Man, either I have a great kid or she has a stupid father.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check