Accurate moulds 43-215C and 43-245C

[BobInAus]

Looking to try out my new moulds, I worked out a 50 to 0ne mix using 50/50 lead/tin bar solder and plain lead to try and stick close to plain lead with the tin helping with sharp corners. I run some 50 to one through the new 43-215C and 43-245C moulds from Accurate and found some issues, the 215C dropped beautiful bullets but at 221ges. The 245C dropped them at 249grs. So I tried some straight wheel weight lead I had on hand and they came out the same weights give or take .5 of a grain. That was strange so I figured my 50 to one calculations must be out. So now I have to find a safe Rel 7 load for the heavier 221grs and 249grs bullets. The bullet I have been using is from a Winchester 200gr mould. I don’t think John Kort’s load of 23.5grs Rel 7 in his 240 bullet will be safe with my new 249gr bullet or the 26.5 grs Rel 7 I have been using for the 200gr Winchester bullet with the new 221ger. bullet.
I was thinking of dropping the charges .5gr or even 1gr for each of the bullet weights. Would this be sufficient to keep pressure below 13,000 CUP?
Any help in this regard would be greatly appreciated.

Regards
Bob

[Outpost75]

BobInAus, if you are shooting these in an original 1873 Winchester or modern link-locked clone of one,
a full grain deduction in charge is very much in order. I think that is enough.

In a strong, modern gun like a '92 Winchester or Marlin 1894 I would not worry about it, as those are adequately strong.

[BobInAus]

Outpost75, thanks for replying. Yes mine is an original 1873 (C1892) Winchester. I haven't actually looked yet but I think the 23.5gr Rel 7 might be a compressed load with the heavy bullet. Anyway we'll see how we go.
Thanks again
Bob.

[Savvy Jack]

Outpost75, thanks for replying. Yes mine is an original 1873 (C1892) Winchester. I haven't actually looked yet but I think the 23.5gr Rel 7 might be a compressed load with the heavy bullet. Anyway we'll see how we go.
Thanks again
Bob.

What is the seating depth of your bullet compared to the typical 240gr? To be safe, like Outpost75 said, back it off a grain...maybe 22gr...and you should be fine for the ole girl. Also, go easy on the crimp. The harder the crimp, the higher the pressure...too little crimp...the better chance of a secondary pressure spike down the barrel.

[BobInAus]

Hey Savvy Jack, thanks for the advice.
I don’t have a 240gr lead bullet but the seating death for the Accurate 245C from crimping grove to the base is .246”. Outpost75 suggested a full grain reduction in the charge so I thought I might go little further and reduce the charges for both bullets by 1.5grs. Pressure has me a bit concerned with regards to the old ’73. I’ve had it a long time and would hate to destroy her.
Thanks for the clue regarding the crimp. I’ll just have to practise crimping not too hard and not light. I’m afraid I am guilty of just about swinging off the press to ensure that Winchester 200 grainer is not going to slip back into the case. I ended up shortening 100 cases just enough to enable me to seat the bullet in the first lube groove and come up in the lifter without a hitch.
Anyway thanks again.
Bob

[Savvy Jack]

Cool beans! I have an original Marlin 1889 that is a "strong action" according to Lyman but I like to take it easy with the ole girl too. I don't have the 43-245C but I do use the 43-215C. The 215C is essentially a Lyman 427098 with a crimp groove but my pressure testing show that it produces higher pressures when tested equally with a high Unique charge. I have not put the 43-215C and Reloder 7 through the test yet but I have for the 427098. 25gr of Reloder 7 and several 200gr bullets are held below 11,000psi in the 9,500psi ballpark. Shooting those same loads in 95 degree weather could increase by 1,000psi to 1,500psi. 26.5gr with a 210gr 427098 pushes 11,373psi in 50 degree weather and could get higher in 95 degree weather.

I'd stay in the 21gr-22gr range for the ole girl!!

[BobInAus]

Hey Savvy Jack,
Thanks heaps for the info. What does your 427098 weigh? Where does 13,000cup stand with regard to 11,373psi. I am not very familiar psi. You mention 21gr-22gr Rel 7, is that with the 43-215C which weighs 221grs. If so I might have gone a bit heavy with the charges. I’m doing some accuracy testing at the moment and going out to my block on Tuesday. The loads I had intended to try are:

43-215C (221grs of 50:1 lead/tin) – 23.5gr to 25gr Rel 7 in increments of .5. I have been using 26.5grs of Rel 7 with the 210gr Lee bullet and the same with the 200gr WRACo mould.

I am also intending to try the 43-245C (249grs of 50:1 lead/tin) – 20.5gr to 22.5gr Rel 7 in increments of .5.

As I mention I am concerned about pressure and going over 13,000CUP hence my query regarding cup and psi.

Your knowledge in regards to this would be much appreciated.
Regards
Bob.

[Savvy Jack]

Hey Savvy Jack,
Thanks heaps for the info. What does your 427098 weigh? Where does 13,000cup stand with regard to 11,373psi. I am not very familiar psi.

According to SAAMI, the 44-40 is a rifle cartridge. https://saami.org/wp-content/uploads...-SAAMI_CFR.pdf Scroll down to page 21 (cup) and page 33 (psi). The CUP testing method is 13,000cup max and the Piezo testing method is 11,000psi max.

You mention 21gr-22gr Rel 7, is that with the 43-215C which weighs 221grs.

Yes but no. The bullet mold will typically cast a 215gr lead bullet pending the lead/tin mixture. Mine typically run 217gr while my Lyman 427098's run about 205. The 472098 is typically a 217gr bullet. My custom 43-208A runs 208gr!

43-215C (221grs of 50:1 lead/tin) – 23.5gr to 25gr Rel 7 in increments of .5. I have been using 26.5grs of Rel 7 with the 210gr Lee bullet and the same with the 200gr WRACo mould.

I would like to see some good photos of that WRACo cast bullet!!!! 23.5 to 25gr and even 26 should be okay BUT they are old guns!!!

I am also intending to try the 43-245C (249grs of 50:1 lead/tin) – 20.5gr to 22.5gr Rel 7 in increments of .5.

One thing to remember is that the "pressure signs" for the 44-40 is a myth and you will more than likely blow up a weak action rifle and any revolver way before any high pressure signs are evident. Remember that between 1903 to 1938 Winchester manufactured "High Velocity" loads that produced 22,000cup...almost twice the pressure, with no high pressure signs. There maybe only one sign...if your chamber is "ruff" rather than smooth, you might see some "surface texture" on high pressure cases.

As I mention I am concerned about pressure and going over 13,000CUP hence my query regarding cup and psi.

For the ole girl, I would stay 5% below max or stick with (23.5gr RL-7 for a 240gr bullet/26gr for a 200gr bullet/25 for a 210gr etc) and remember shooting in high outside air temps can create higher pressures. The are a lot of "variables" and is probably why factories stay 10%-20% below SAAMI max.

Some reputable shooters use the below formula it is better than nothing.

"Regarding CUP ratings in manuals, while the correlation between CUP and psi is too poor for reliably converting one unit to the other over a range of chamberings, within a single chambering the conversion by the ratio of the CUP and psi maps within the SAAMI system is going to be close enough for practical work. That is, 11000 psi divided by 13000 CUP is 0.846 psi/CUP for the 44-40, so you can take the CUP numbers in the Lyman Manual and multiply them by 0.846 to get a reasonable expectation of psi. Conversely, dividing psi by that same number will come close to CUP."

[BobInAus]

Hey Savvy Jack, thanks again for all that. This is the WRACo bullet.
I think I had information overload with that message. I'm not sure what max you mean to start from with the 249gr bullet or how you arrived at 25gr for the 210gr bullet.


Regards
Bob

[Savvy Jack]

It doesn't take much to get overloaded, happens to me a lot.
maybe it would be easier to show you my results and you can decide what you would like to try. You have to remember that these are my results and what works for me but I can always be wrong

Attachment 232947

That WRACo mold looks like the later model with a more prominent forward driving band. It looks much more like Lyman's bullets. The 43-215C was designed after the Lyman 427098 but added a crimp groove forward of the driving band. Here is an example from the Late Tony Edwards collection.
Note how it appears to be crimped on the driving band, not over the top.
Attachment 232948

[BobInAus]

Hey Savvy Jack,
The mould, does cast a pretty good bullet. I might be put it aside if these Accurate bullets turn out ok.
That shot from the Late Tony Edwards collection has a lot of information. I see what you mean about being crimped ON the forward driving band. It looks like a crimped case behind the bullet base, like the current Magtech cases, might just be the shoulder of the case, with a wadded smokeless load in the balloon head case.

Thanks so much for the chart. After the column indicating the FPS what are the figures in the second and third columns?

What weight does your 240 LRNFP turn out at.
Do you mind if I ask what blend of tin/lead you use.
What rifle are these loads fired in?
Regards
Bob.

[BobInAus]

Hey Savvy Jack,
The mould, does cast a pretty good bullet. I might be put it aside if these Accurate bullets turn out ok.
That shot from the Late Tony Edwards collection has a lot of information. I see what you mean about being crimped ON the forward driving band. It looks like a crimped case behind the bullet, like the current Magtech cases, might just be the shoulder of the case, with a wadded smokeless load in the balloon head case.
Thanks so much for the chart. After the column indicating the FPS what are the figures in the second and third columns?
What weight does the 240 LRNFP turn out at.
Do you mind if I ask what blend of tin/lead you use.
What rifle are these loads fired in?
Regards
Bob.

[Savvy Jack]

After the column indicating the FPS what are the figures in the second and third columns?

Estimated CIP I was working with that I don't really use any more.

What weight does the 240 LRNFP turn out at

240gr

Do you mind if I ask what blend of tin/lead you use

currently I just use wheel weights. I also still use some lead bullts I melted down but I don't know the BNH

What rifle are these loads fired in?

Marlin 1894CB HOWEVER, the pressures are taken using an MGM barrel on a platform I made.

Eventually I will get an older model Winchester mold but they keep sneaking past me.

[BobInAus]

Hey Savvy Jack

Than you so much for sharing your knowledge on this subject. It was really appreciated.

Regards

Bob.

[Savvy Jack]

Hey Savvy Jack

Than you so much for sharing your knowledge on this subject. It was really appreciated.

Regards

Bob.

I forgot that last column is published pressures for that particular load.