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Thread: My latest RB trials

  1. #1
    Boolit Master

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    My latest RB trials

    Hello all! I acquired a huge trove of shotshell components from a friend after his BIL passed away. He was primarily a 16ga. shooter so there's a bunch of slug loading stuff for his Browning Sweet Sixteen. Among that were a number of different thickness 16ga. card wads, which is just what I needed for my 12 ga. RB loads! So, last night I loaded a box of test loads consisting of:

    Once fired W-W AA hulls (Old style compression formed)
    W-W 209 primer
    19.0 gr. Red Dot
    Federal 12S3 wad w/ .140" card in the cup
    .662" RB
    8 pt. fold crimp

    At the bench last night, I needed to increase wad pressure from 50# to 70# in order to crimp successfully. Even at that crimps weren't as neat as I would have liked them. I admit, I'm fussy about crimps. I thought about increasing the pressure a little more but thought perhaps I should shoot these before I do that. The 12S3 has a very stout crush section, as I would find out!

    At the range this AM, my first 3 shots were almost touching at 50 yards (2" group). I'm shooting a smoothbore 870 with IC choke tube with a scope on it for testing. My next two shots were 6" high and left, about 5" apart. Hmmmm...... I walked down to see if I could find any wads; I found 4 of the 5, two were missing one petal each, the other two looked fine, just like they had come from a skeet load.

    I continued firing 5 shot groups, walking the groups around the outside edge of the bull with my scope adjustments. I noticed a repetitive pattern; good groups (around 3") with 3 or 4 rounds and 1 or 2 flyers opening the groups to 6-7". Once finished, I picked up as many wads as I could find, 22 in all. Six of them had either a sheared petal or a broken but still attached petal. I noticed that the crush section on these wads didn't show hardly any compression, I thought that was odd. This load is supposed to generate 1300 fps, wads I used previously showed much more compression. I'm sure the damaged wads accounted for some of the flyers. I mean, "Hey--It couldn't possibly be me!!"

    So, now I'm wondering:
    Do I drop to 18.0 gr. of powder to slow it down and (hopefully) improve the crimp?

    Do I increase the wad pressure to squash the crush section a little more?

    With a .140 card and the ball on top there isn't any room left in the cup for filler of any kind. I feel like this load is right on the cusp of being a good oe if I can iron out the wrinkles. What would you do?
    "We take a thousand moments for granted thinking there will be a thousand more to come. Each day, each breath, each beat of your heart is a gift. Live with love & joy, tomorrow is not promised to anyone......"

    unknown

  2. #2
    Boolit Master

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    Is the .662 RB in that wad loose in the bore? If so, that might account of the flyers. Switch to a .1 or .120 card, this will give a little more for crimping.


    Scott
    Scott

    You can easily judge the character of others by how they treat those who they think can do nothing for them.

  3. #3
    Boolit Buddy
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    Very interesting I always wonder if slowing a ball down would be better vs speeding a bullet

  4. #4
    Boolit Grand Master

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    Try cloth patching the ball into the hull with wad inserted... much like patching for muzzleloader. I pre-tear square patches from an old cotton shirt that runs around 0.010" when slightly compressed. The ball/patch/wad fit to bore is a stiff push through with finger. That shoots quite well for me.

    Longbow

  5. #5
    Boolit Grand Master GhostHawk's Avatar
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    Try splitting the card on a few loads.

  6. #6
    Boolit Grand Master


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    It sound like the others can help with the load itself better than I can. I did build a smooth bore slug gun for my dad about this time last year, and I may have some ideas for that. Is this a gun you have previously fired slugs out of with good groups? If so, ignore what I'm about to say...

    When I started, it was an old 870 12 gauge, that started as a bird/buck combo. The slug barrel is a 20" smooth bore, fixed IC choke with open sights. It always shot decent enough, but with my dads aging eyes, he could hardly keep them on paper anymore. At first he bought a saddle mount that went through the trigger pin holes. I had tried the same thing years ago on my Benelli Nova, and I can say with certainty that saddle mounts are junk. There is no way you can get a tight enough fit without binding the gun, and still have any kind of accuracy. I even tried oversized screws that I had to pound through the gun, and I could still wiggle the mount by hand. After a failure to sight in the 870 with the saddle mount, I purchased a Da-Mar mount, that I believe to be the best available for the 870. It uses 6 screws instead of the typical 3 or 4, and 4 of them are right in the meat of the receiver. After that, we went to the range and had accuracy like you describe. The first couple shots touched, then it went way off, then it shot patterns. I cut up a beer can to use as shims around the barrel, and carefully got 2 or 3 thicknesses in. There is a lot of slop in a shotgun barrel. A beer can is something about .004" thick, so this 870's barrel was undersized by .008" or more, and on top of that, the loop on the end of the mag tube is sloppy too. After shimming, the scope was way off, but accuracy was fantastic. I went home, and did what is known as pinning the barrel. I tightened the mag tube nut as much as I could by hand, then drilled and tapped right through the receiver on the left side, into the barrel extension. I added a single shim to kind of keep the barrel straight. After grinding the bolt to be flush on the inside, I tightened it down good with loctite. Topped with a leupold 1-4x, it is now the most accurate smooth bore slug gun I have personally seen. I've only done it once, but I've shot a 4" 5 shot group at 100 yards with estate 1oz slugs. Most slugs are closer to 8" groups, but the thing is an absolute tack driver to 75 yards.

  7. #7
    Boolit Master

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    Hello guys, sorry to be gone so long, I've been away for several days. So, to answer some of the questions:

    The gun is an old 870 Express Turkey model, 21" barrel with vent rib and 2 beads. It has been a good slug gun putting Remington Foster slugs and Federal Tru-Balls into 3-4" groups @ 50 yds. This with just the bead sights, it shoots where it looks, about an inch or so to the left @ 50. I do not mount a scope for hunting but I mounted a 4-12 scope for testing, same scope I use on my CF rifles for testing. I'm confident in the gun, it's killed a bunch of deer in the past 30 years or so.

    12S3 wads + .662" RB +.140" card = one tight fit! WOW! Even without the card it's a snug fit and these wads are tougher plastic than the Rem. RP-12's I was using. That load with the RP-12 is a good one, equaling factory slugs and relatively easy to assemble. AA hull, WW 209, 19 gr Red Dot, 1/2 tsp cornmeal filler, .662 ball and fold crimp. Good load, but the RP-12 is an expensive wad, so, my search continues.

    It occurred to me this AM that the test session prior to this one was done without the scope mounted, just anxious to get to the range, I guess. I loaded up a box of the original 12S3 loads (AA hull, WW 209, 19 gr Red Dot, 12S3 w/1/4 tsp cornmeal filler and .662 RB, fold crimp) and will give them another go on Monday.

    Also, I had a thought while pushing this wad/ball combo thru my barrel this AM; Those torn petals are bugging me. I know this is common and longbow has commented on this a number of times, but WHERE is this happening? Forcing cone? Choke? I had always loaded these balls sprue down so the nub wouldn't catch the air and initiate a spin. Today as I was pushing that wad/ball combo thru the bore it occurred to me that if the ball turned slightly in the wad, the nub might pinch the petal and cut it. Maybe. I dunno'! But I loaded this batch sprue up!

    Cloth patching - Not gonna' work with this wad/ball combo, it's pretty snug! I had some really thin material, .010", and tried it but couldn't even start to get it into the bore. It entered the chamber OK but came to a dead stop in the forcing cone!

    So, that's where I'm at for now, I'll give a shout back after range tests!
    "We take a thousand moments for granted thinking there will be a thousand more to come. Each day, each breath, each beat of your heart is a gift. Live with love & joy, tomorrow is not promised to anyone......"

    unknown

  8. #8
    Boolit Grand Master

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    I'll say petals are shearing in the choke... my thought anyway. The only petals I've had shearing are with 0.690" RB in my 12 ga. Generally petals do well. So, I have to think that the forcing cone isn't an issue as I've had good results with 0.662" RB's patched into shotcups, 0.678" RB's in shotcup and and lately Lee slugs (not terrific accuracy but no sheared petals). That's for cylinder bore gun.

    If you are using a turkey choke barrel it will most likely be full or extra full choke so that ball/wad combo may be pretty snug in the choke. You might try a donut wad to keep the ball centered since its likely loose for most of the trip down the barrel.

    Longbow

  9. #9
    Boolit Master
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    Note post 6, Mega is dead on. If you have the scope on the reciever of an 870 without doing something like he did, you have no crosshair to barrel alignment. That barrel is moving at every shot, no matter how tight the retaing cap is.
    Had a friend with one, we shot better groups with the beads on a factory skeet barrel than with the scope!
    “You don’t practice until you get it right. You practice until you can’t get it wrong.” Jason Elam, All-Pro kicker, Denver Broncos

  10. #10
    Boolit Master

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    Quote Originally Posted by longbow View Post
    I'll say petals are shearing in the choke... my thought anyway. The only petals I've had shearing are with 0.690" RB in my 12 ga. Generally petals do well. So, I have to think that the forcing cone isn't an issue as I've had good results with 0.662" RB's patched into shotcups, 0.678" RB's in shotcup and and lately Lee slugs (not terrific accuracy but no sheared petals). That's for cylinder bore gun.

    If you are using a turkey choke barrel it will most likely be full or extra full choke so that ball/wad combo may be pretty snug in the choke. You might try a donut wad to keep the ball centered since its likely loose for most of the trip down the barrel.

    Longbow
    Longbow,

    This gun has interchangeable choke tubes, I am running the IC tube for these loads, so about .010" constriction. It's very possible that even that small constriction could shear a petal as the 12S3/.662" RB combo is very snug. In the past I have shot Remington Foster slugs thru the Full choke tube with no problem, still shot 4" groups but Full choke wouldn't be appropriate for what I'm doing now.
    "We take a thousand moments for granted thinking there will be a thousand more to come. Each day, each breath, each beat of your heart is a gift. Live with love & joy, tomorrow is not promised to anyone......"

    unknown

  11. #11
    Boolit Master

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    Quote Originally Posted by rking22 View Post
    Note post 6, Mega is dead on. If you have the scope on the reciever of an 870 without doing something like he did, you have no crosshair to barrel alignment. That barrel is moving at every shot, no matter how tight the retaing cap is.
    Had a friend with one, we shot better groups with the beads on a factory skeet barrel than with the scope!
    Yes, I quite agree! For ultimate accuracy everything needs to be tightened up and a scope mounted. Here however, my purpose is to find a RB load that is easy to assemble and will provide accuracy on par with factory slugs. Also, I absolutely do not want a scope on the gun while I'm hunting with it! One of the attributes of this shotgun is that it is slim, short and handy, especially in the thick woodlands were I hunt. My average shot at a deer is 25-30 yards so easily within shotgun range. I can use a rifle if want to, but having done that for a number of years I find myself drifting back to the shotgun. For 7-8 years after I bought this gun it was the only gun I hunted with-ducks, geese, bunnies, squirrels,deer- didn't matter, it killed them all! No, I don't harvest game, I kill game. Mostly with my shotgun!
    "We take a thousand moments for granted thinking there will be a thousand more to come. Each day, each breath, each beat of your heart is a gift. Live with love & joy, tomorrow is not promised to anyone......"

    unknown

  12. #12
    Boolit Grand Master

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    Okay then I missed something.

    In your post #7 you said "12S3 wads + .662" RB +.140" card = one tight fit!" Not sure how a 0.662" RB naked can be a tight fit in a standard wad. I've never used the Federal 12S3 wad because they are not locally available but I see in Ajay's post #644 here:

    http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...-Sabot!/page33

    that a 0.678" RB in a Federal 123-S wad gives a total diameter of 0.725"/0.726" which is far from tight in a standard 12 ga. bore and that is a larger ball as well. So based on that unless this gun has a very tight bore I'm not sure how you have a tight fit of 0.662" RB in the shotcup.

    So far in my experience the 0.662" balls (mine cast 0.663") are a loose fit in anything but steel shot wads (I was given a few CSD wads) in which they are a perfect snug press fit into the shotcup (unlsit) and a perfect fit to bore but those have very thick walls on the shotcups. In regular shotcups they are a "rattle" fit in the bore.

    If you are running those balls loose in the shotcups and they are as loose as I have experienced then maybe the petals are crumpling and tearing rather than being pinched... or maybe the ball is actually bouncing at the forcing cone then slamming into the petals causing them so shear. I can't think of any other reason the petals would shear... unless they are crumpling and tearing.

    I have had petals crumple and get damaged and that usually happens if I don't space the ball out near the top of the shotcup or cut petals back to the top of the ball or a little lower. Opening crimps is hard on unsupported petals.

    I've got no other thoughts there and am still confused over your tight fit with 0.662" RB.

    Longbow

  13. #13
    Boolit Master

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    Here's an easy fix for barrel wobble in an 870.
    http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?t=197756
    And yes there is a good quality saddle mount. I went throught several that were sloppy until I found this aluminum precision piece of equipment. Have it on 2 of mine now and it absolutely holds up recoil and maintains zero . Tighten screw until just begin to compress receiver then back off a bit. https://www.cheaperthandirt.com/prod...12274523760.do
    "My main ambition in life is to be on the devil's most wanted list."
    Leonard Ravenhill

  14. #14
    Boolit Master
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    Interesting, Centershot, I have come to similar poont. I shot my deer last year with a 16ga M31, kinda got me thinking. I hunt close ad well and if i personally need more than the bead ill ho back to a rifle. I was only suggesting your load evaulation may be skewed by the scope setup. Also, quite intetested in any 16ga rb workup you may do!
    “You don’t practice until you get it right. You practice until you can’t get it wrong.” Jason Elam, All-Pro kicker, Denver Broncos

  15. #15
    Boolit Master

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    rking22, I'm of a mind that the 16 ga. died for no good reason. I don't own one but keep wishing I could afford a Sweet Sixteen A-5!

    Longbow, yes that combo with the card is REALLY tight, w/o the card it is still snug but definitely pushes thru with less effort. I'll mike the O.D. and get back to you. I'm going to get a cylinder bore choke tube (or have my IC opened up) to see if that helps the situation. I don't think it would make the gun all that much less effective with shot loads, considering the short ranges here. I'd switch off to Full choke for turkey and 'yotes for sure tho'!
    "We take a thousand moments for granted thinking there will be a thousand more to come. Each day, each breath, each beat of your heart is a gift. Live with love & joy, tomorrow is not promised to anyone......"

    unknown

  16. #16
    Boolit Master

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    I spent a few minutes pushing wads & balls thru my bore with a dowel. The 12S3 +.662 RB mikes .717-719", yet, it's snug thru the bore until I reach the "breech-end" of the choke tube. There it gets noticeably looser until it hits the choke constriction. I even pushed it halfway and withdrew the dowel then shook the barrel to see if I could hear the ball thump around in the cup, but nothing. Granted, the ball could be loose a couple thou' and I'd never hear it. Just for my own curiosity I'm gonna' run up to my gunsmith's place tomorrow and have him mile the bore I.D.
    "We take a thousand moments for granted thinking there will be a thousand more to come. Each day, each breath, each beat of your heart is a gift. Live with love & joy, tomorrow is not promised to anyone......"

    unknown

  17. #17
    Boolit Master

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hogtamer View Post
    Here's an easy fix for barrel wobble in an 870.
    http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?t=197756
    And yes there is a good quality saddle mount. I went throught several that were sloppy until I found this aluminum precision piece of equipment. Have it on 2 of mine now and it absolutely holds up recoil and maintains zero . Tighten screw until just begin to compress receiver then back off a bit. https://www.cheaperthandirt.com/prod...12274523760.do
    Thanks for those links, Hal! That scope mount is on my "gotta' get it" list! The Shotgun World site looks interesting, I'll give it a look-see!
    "We take a thousand moments for granted thinking there will be a thousand more to come. Each day, each breath, each beat of your heart is a gift. Live with love & joy, tomorrow is not promised to anyone......"

    unknown

  18. #18
    Boolit Master

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    I tried that barrel-shim trick posted above before I left for the range on Monday. Dang! That really tightened up the fit! And, of course, the scope was no longer zeroed because of it, but once I got it back on paper it put 15 rounds into a nice round 5" group at 50 yds.! No fliers!

    Then my scope died...... Oh well..... Went to the LGS and bought a new Leupold VX-1 shotgun scope....... explained to Mrs. centershot that it followed me home.....and it looked hungry......and that we really should keep it cuz it was so cute! Right! So back to the range tomorrow with more test loads, hoping for better things!
    "We take a thousand moments for granted thinking there will be a thousand more to come. Each day, each breath, each beat of your heart is a gift. Live with love & joy, tomorrow is not promised to anyone......"

    unknown

  19. #19
    Boolit Grand Master


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    That's good to hear, and a 5" 15 shot group is already pretty good. Once you get the combo with the right barrel fit, you will have a heck of a slug gun. Round balls really are impressive.

  20. #20
    Boolit Master

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    Yes! Out to 50-60 yards a RB is entirey adequate for most big game in North America! Most...........
    "We take a thousand moments for granted thinking there will be a thousand more to come. Each day, each breath, each beat of your heart is a gift. Live with love & joy, tomorrow is not promised to anyone......"

    unknown

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check