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Thread: New CVA 45 Cal. Mountain Rifle

  1. #21
    Boolit Buddy arcticap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fly View Post
    If the barrel said made in USA it is a Douglas.
    I believe that the Douglas barrels do not have "made in USA" stamped on them.
    But rather the Spanish made barrels would have Spanish proof marks on them as required by Spanish law.
    USA made barrels are not required to be proofed.

    This sales ad for an old CVA Mountain Rifle states: "There are no Spanish proof marks on it so it was made in the U.S.A."
    And their photos basically only show a serial number, CVA company identification, and its caliber stamped on the barrel.
    https://www.riverjunction.com/z-Sold...el_p_3989.html
    Last edited by arcticap; 07-05-2018 at 05:18 AM.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tasbay View Post
    Oh an Aussie!!. I`m in South Island , pretty much in the Middle , neither wet side or dry side.

    Ticking: Yep wash it and Iron it before Lube. Spoke to the guy who sold it to me today, He`s in top of North. He was using Bees wax and soluble paraffin, ticking, 570 Balls, 60gr & 120gr FFF charges. Reckoned it was one of the most accurate Muzzleloaders he`s had. Took it with him to the U.S.A and Bisley England, Don`t know what he was doing with it at Bisley. Interesting he said he had built it from a Kit but didn`t remember Coning the barrel.
    Rifling is Crisp and clean / well defined all way to about 1 1/2 inches from muzzle then fades away to nothing about 1/8 inch from muzzle tip.
    mmmm dont like the sound of that muzzle coning job - never done one but I thought the trick was just take a couple thou off the top of the lands - lookin at my CVA hawken you could take about 15 mm off the end of the barrel before you interfered with the sight dovetail and the forward screw on the barrel under rib. That much would be easy - recrown it and see how it goes ? Otherwise you have to recut the sight dovetail and that screw underneath becomes a problem -- 58 barrel not very thick !
    I had three CVA's where that screw had actually dented the rifling - (from Owen Guns in QLD - I reckon he was buying job lots of quality control rejects from Spain - sold em cheap - I got no complaints he was good to deal with and it all worked out good!) These things will shoot - no question about it - I am halfway through building a nice little flinter around a 45 CVA Kentucky barrel - nice curly maple stock, davis single set trigger, L&R Manton lock - bought the kit off a bloke to get that barrel.
    Curious - what wood are you using for charcoal for yr powder? getting a clean burn or no?
    Lube - I keep harping on that - my first venture into muzzleloaders I was using green dishwash based lube - could not get a ten shot group for love nor money - first four or five or maybe six would be nice then we got the wanders - group would open up - I would blame meself for losing the plot - I got a copy of Sam Fadalas blackpowder manual and started over - powder charge was right - I was using good swaged ball - calico patch was loading a bit easy but not burnt - he was strong on the moose milk lube so I tried that - bingo!! my problem vanished - been using it ever since - the first major match I went to that combo got me a second on countback from one of the top shots in the country. Moose milk is the best range lube - not the best for hunting - need something like your man from Africa used. Always with blackpowder needs enough lube to keep the fouling soft all the way to the muzzle - so more will just about always be better than less. Anyway keep us posted when you get this rifle going properly. I'd like to know what was the problem.

  3. #23
    Boolit Master
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    Yes if no markings it indeed a Douglas barrel.

    Fly

  4. #24
    Boolit Master
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    I have the first of two Hawken rifles made for CVA and the first "Mountain Rifle made for them ( all made at end of 1970 and beginning of 1971) as a test to see how they would work and how fancy things needed to be. All 3 have Douglas barrels and all are just amazing shooters. The mountain rifle was made for woods walks and wood runs and is super light and can be loaded for 5 or 6 shots without having to wipe after each shot. Doug Knoell made them for CVA's owner and they are dated 1970/1971 in the fore end under the barrel. Note these are not kits. About the only difference is mine has a very fancy nose cap where the kits and production guns are plain. You will surely love yours.
    John
    Last edited by oldracer; 07-05-2018 at 09:39 PM.

  5. #25
    Boolit Buddy 45-70bpcr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fly View Post
    Yes if no markings it indeed a Douglas barrel.

    Fly
    What are you basing that on? This came from another forum from the guy that said he developed the CVA Mountain rifle and built the first kit. He doesn't mention Douglas. I've read it 100 places too but are they all just repeating? I'm so confused.

    "Guys,

    Here's the straight story on the CVA Mountain Rifle. I was in charge of the development and initial production of the gun and Kit (built the first one ever to write the instructions). The guns were originally assembled in the U.S. from American cut maple stocks and Spanish parts. The very early barrels were conventional button rifled, but were changed to a unique extruded barrel was rifle and formed in a special high pressure die in Spain and shipped to the U.S. for final crowning and fitting of the breech. After a few years, the guns and kits were fully made in Spain.

    The original prototype was made by the late Don Kammerer, a noted custom rifle maker from Indiana, also a great shot. It was he who shot the rifles at the national championship in Friendship Indiana. He challenged a writer who had been tough on CVA (with some justification) to a match - the writer's custom target gun of choice against the Mountian Rifle. Don shot his target with 5 different rifles and the writer used his custom gun. Don's target was better due to the writer's flyer which ruined the group. Don offered to let the guy fire a 6th shoot discounting the flyer. The guy's best 5 shots fractionally edged Don's group, but the point was made that those mountain rifles could really shoot. It was a big deal at the time. The range was closed for the match and a large crowd gathered. Great PR for CVA.

    If you can find a good older version with the maple stock you might have a real good shooter. The gun wasn't a copy of any particular original, but Don built a very good compromise between authentic, yet easy to assemble, especially as a kit. I still have the first one ever built from a kit.

    Reverend Chase"

  6. #26
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by 45-70bpcr View Post
    What are you basing that on? This came from another forum from the guy that said he developed the CVA Mountain rifle and built the first kit. He doesn't mention Douglas. I've read it 100 places too but are they all just repeating? I'm so confused.

    "Guys,

    Here's the straight story on the CVA Mountain Rifle. I was in charge of the development and initial production of the gun and Kit (built the first one ever to write the instructions). The guns were originally assembled in the U.S. from American cut maple stocks and Spanish parts. The very early barrels were conventional button rifled, but were changed to a unique extruded barrel was rifle and formed in a special high pressure die in Spain and shipped to the U.S. for final crowning and fitting of the breech. After a few years, the guns and kits were fully made in Spain.

    The original prototype was made by the late Don Kammerer, a noted custom rifle maker from Indiana, also a great shot. It was he who shot the rifles at the national championship in Friendship Indiana. He challenged a writer who had been tough on CVA (with some justification) to a match - the writer's custom target gun of choice against the Mountian Rifle. Don shot his target with 5 different rifles and the writer used his custom gun. Don's target was better due to the writer's flyer which ruined the group. Don offered to let the guy fire a 6th shoot discounting the flyer. The guy's best 5 shots fractionally edged Don's group, but the point was made that those mountain rifles could really shoot. It was a big deal at the time. The range was closed for the match and a large crowd gathered. Great PR for CVA.

    If you can find a good older version with the maple stock you might have a real good shooter. The gun wasn't a copy of any particular original, but Don built a very good compromise between authentic, yet easy to assemble, especially as a kit. I still have the first one ever built from a kit.

    Reverend Chase"
    at the risk of starting a riot
    I believe the alleged superiority of the CVA Douglas barrels over early vintage Spanish made barrels is mostly a myth - something that is more to do with wishful thinking and allegiance tthe flag than it is reality (that ought to do it ) - seriously - I never owned a mountain rifle by time I got there they were gone - but an excellent article by a well respected writer in our local shooters journal "The 54 Calibre Big Bore Mountain Rifle" - in 2 parts, was what got me into muzzle loading. I settled for a Kentucky kit while I searched for that mountain rifle (never did find it!) but I got a couple of 54 hawken barrels off a dealer for 50bucks each and a missouri river kit gun to hang them on. along the way i sold the little kentucky - it was doing well but there were custom built guns popping up allover and a my gun looked kinda amateurish with its cheap two part stock. Bought me a CVA pennsylvania rifle 50 cal - the only one I ever saw out here, I converted the percussion to flint (just alittle CVA flint lock) and was doin really well - that was the best rifle I ever had in my hands and I sold it thinking I could do better - Green mountain barrel, Davis trigger, durrs egg lock didnt come close to the CVA !! I bought a project stock and built up one of the 54 hawkens, have bought another kentucky kit just to get the barrel to build a little flinter in 45 - son has a 45 frontier - we have had 7 CVA barrels all 87 branded (1987 make) Spanish manufacture -- and -----Reverend Chase----- they all have been "real good shooters" .... the couple that I have taken the trouble to wring out properly have been exceptional - right up there with the best. If a douglass is better (maybe it is) I doubt there is more than one rifleman in a hundred good enough to demonstrate the difference on paper. There were other minor issues with some locks - some of the kentuckys had a cheap and nasty bridleless lock on them - there were problems with the long sear locks bending the sear nose. I understand you guys being loyal to made in the USA - applaud it in fact but those spanish made barrels were good!!!

  7. #27
    Boolit Master
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    Well I guess I,m wrong. You have hands on knowledge & I have what others have told me which I thought was correct. I do have a question though
    you being the most knowledgeable. I bought my kit Mountain Rifle in the middle of 1978. It has no markings on barrel, so what barrel would be most likely for
    mine to have? Oh mine is a .50 cal

    Fly

  8. #28
    Boolit Buddy 45-70bpcr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fly View Post
    Well I guess I,m wrong. You have hands on knowledge & I have what others have told me which I thought was correct. I do have a question though
    you being the most knowledgeable. I bought my kit Mountain Rifle in the middle of 1978. It has no markings on barrel, so what barrel would be most likely for
    mine to have? Oh mine is a .50 cal

    Fly
    I sure don't know that you are wrong. I've seen just what you said many times. The quote I posted from Reverend Chase is not me and from another forum. I have zero first hand knowledge so please don't think I was correcting you. I just really had the hots for one of the early Mt. Rifles. The more I read the more I wanted the one with 4 screw patch box and octagon ferrules USA marked barrel. I believe they were 1978 ish like yours fly? They don't turn up often and go for a premium. As I read more about the barrels I saw conflicting info. Sorry if I confused anyone with my posts.

  9. #29
    Boolit Master
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    Now I,m confused? (wink) I would like to know too!

    Fly

  10. #30
    Boolit Grand Master

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    Since the barrels(some of them) were made in Spain but not finished with breech plug until after they were shipped to the US, they would not have proof marks. I'm to the mind of if it shoots good, it shoots good, no point in arguing over where it was made. It was just the best production gun CVA ever sold either way.
    Aim small, miss small!

  11. #31
    Boolit Bub
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    Quote Originally Posted by indian joe View Post
    mmmm dont like the sound of that muzzle coning job - never done one but I thought the trick was just take a couple thou off the top of the lands - lookin at my CVA hawken you could take about 15 mm off the end of the barrel before you interfered with the sight dovetail and the forward screw on the barrel under rib. That much would be easy - recrown it and see how it goes ? Otherwise you have to recut the sight dovetail and that screw underneath becomes a problem -- 58 barrel not very thick !
    I had three CVA's where that screw had actually dented the rifling - (from Owen Guns in QLD - I reckon he was buying job lots of quality control rejects from Spain - sold em cheap - I got no complaints he was good to deal with and it all worked out good!) These things will shoot - no question about it - I am halfway through building a nice little flinter around a 45 CVA Kentucky barrel - nice curly maple stock, davis single set trigger, L&R Manton lock - bought the kit off a bloke to get that barrel.
    Curious - what wood are you using for charcoal for yr powder? getting a clean burn or no?
    Lube - I keep harping on that - my first venture into muzzleloaders I was using green dishwash based lube - could not get a ten shot group for love nor money - first four or five or maybe six would be nice then we got the wanders - group would open up - I would blame meself for losing the plot - I got a copy of Sam Fadalas blackpowder manual and started over - powder charge was right - I was using good swaged ball - calico patch was loading a bit easy but not burnt - he was strong on the moose milk lube so I tried that - bingo!! my problem vanished - been using it ever since - the first major match I went to that combo got me a second on countback from one of the top shots in the country. Moose milk is the best range lube - not the best for hunting - need something like your man from Africa used. Always with blackpowder needs enough lube to keep the fouling soft all the way to the muzzle - so more will just about always be better than less. Anyway keep us posted when you get this rifle going properly. I'd like to know what was the problem.
    Ok looks like I will be finding / making some Moose Milk to try. The Hack saw is a last resort, have other smoke poles to use till I get this sorted.... Some say that's half the fun but I`m getting a bit over it!!.
    Charcoal for my homemade powder is from what we call Crack Willow, cracks and sparks when you burn it. Introduced by the English and grows near pretty well every river in NZ.Not sure why the introduced it but I have wondered if it was for producing gunpowder Have tried a couple of other willows as well but the Crack I have found to be best. Has a bit more fouling than Goex ($72 lb) but at $75nz for 28kg I`m quite happy to swab the barrel between shots. Sulphur and Potassium nitrate from a stock / farm agent. Probably not the most pure but it works just fine and pretty fast burning.
    Had a look at the end of barrel photos put up in Articap`s post of an old CVA add. End of my barrel looks nothing like that, that's crowned. Mine you would just see a hint of rifling at the deepest point of view. Must admit the Hacksaw is looking more and more like therapy
    Last edited by Tasbay; 07-06-2018 at 03:13 AM.

  12. #32
    Boolit Master
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    I do not think any here are in argument but discussion. My gun shoots great, it was the first muzzle loader I started
    with. I have bought many since. But it would be nice to know where it was made & if this Douglas barrel thing is true?

    Fly

  13. #33
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fly View Post
    I do not think any here are in argument but discussion. My gun shoots great, it was the first muzzle loader I started
    with. I have bought many since. But it would be nice to know where it was made & if this Douglas barrel thing is true?

    Fly
    Fly
    My Spanish made CVA barrels have proof marks on the right hand flat a little ahead of the nipple drum - and the makers mark on the other side flat between vertical and horizontal - some of these are marked Conneticut Valley Arms. Inc. Black Powder only 54 cal. (two lines above one another) Spain - then the model mark (Hawken) is like an afterthought in different lettering others Dikar Made in Spain - same lettering machine as the CVA ones. All have been very accurate barrels and not load sensitive at all. These are 87 serial number prefix so I assume they are 1987 vintage made.?

  14. #34
    Congrats! Have fun with the build.
    The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not
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  15. #35
    Boolit Bub
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    indian joe,
    Have had a wet day here, never a good thing when something gun related is bothering me. It was off to the shed. Cut off 15mm of barrel, squared and crowned it. The rifling is defined at that point (can always take more off if have too). Speaking with the previous owner who built it from a kit didn`t ever remember coning it. Stated he built it and shot it as it was , was very accurate. The ramrod with it seems to be fiberglass or something similar, I`m now of the mind it is/was wear at the muzzle from rod use. Also changed the wedge pins to new ones not as tight fitting that can be installed by hand and a hammer not required. Have found some Ballistol and made some Moose Milk 1:6 mix dried patches.
    Now its just wait for the rain to stop, flooding and road closures, ain`t winter great!!

  16. #36
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tasbay View Post
    indian joe,
    Have had a wet day here, never a good thing when something gun related is bothering me. It was off to the shed. Cut off 15mm of barrel, squared and crowned it. The rifling is defined at that point (can always take more off if have too). Speaking with the previous owner who built it from a kit didn`t ever remember coning it. Stated he built it and shot it as it was , was very accurate. The ramrod with it seems to be fiberglass or something similar, I`m now of the mind it is/was wear at the muzzle from rod use. Also changed the wedge pins to new ones not as tight fitting that can be installed by hand and a hammer not required. Have found some Ballistol and made some Moose Milk 1:6 mix dried patches.
    Now its just wait for the rain to stop, flooding and road closures, ain`t winter great!!
    That (flooding) would be a welcome change - we having a drought here!
    I detest those fibre rods - I reckon they pick up grit - if ya lean on em real hard they will flex sideways against the rifling - they too fat to carry a muzzle protector easily - had a couple of em early days - another thing to throw away is any kind of muzzle protector with parallel sides - have seen a barrel with a distinctive ring mark from a plastic rod guide that was not tapered.
    I just use a steel 1/4 or 5/16 inch rod - tap a thread in the end for your jag and brush, make a small brass guide with 45 degree taper on so it only contacts the end where the barrel is crowned - I cut about 3/4 inch off the under rib and the steel rod lives on the rifle - the bore guide fills the space where you cut the rib short - hang it out about a half inch past the muzzle end - can get fancy if you like and make a little lump at other end to hold in the retaining clip in the rod channel (the little spring thats on the front lock screw)
    You like those dried patches eh! .....shooting a string at the range..... running it damp works better I reckon - I shot 25 for score at our club last sunday - damp patches, no cleaning - last one loaded as easy as the first - I bet I could have shot a hundred and stayed on target without having to clean the barrel. I like your idea for hunting tho!
    Something else you might try, when you get this rifle sorted out some - my CVA's are single wedge guns so a bit different but one 54 in particular I put a couple layers of yellow card (cut a manilla folder) right at the front between the barrel and the forend wood - just a piece about an inch square on the bottom flat and the two angled flats - might take two pieces - enough to make the wedge good and tight - might even have to lean on it to get the wedge in - your rifle with the two wedges I would want the front wedge tight rear one loose - gives you two distinct points of contact and puts even tension on the barrel - might not do anything either - maybe though? I have seen more than one bloke over here with a hook barrel gun glass bedded at front and rear - (they dont talk about it! its not the blokes in the bottom half of the scoreboard either).
    Well I will try to stop the next lot of rain before it gets to you guys - sure could use a couple inches here .
    Joe

  17. #37
    Boolit Bub
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    Quote Originally Posted by indian joe View Post
    That (flooding) would be a welcome change - we having a drought here!
    I detest those fibre rods - I reckon they pick up grit - if ya lean on em real hard they will flex sideways against the rifling - they too fat to carry a muzzle protector easily - had a couple of em early days - another thing to throw away is any kind of muzzle protector with parallel sides - have seen a barrel with a distinctive ring mark from a plastic rod guide that was not tapered.
    I just use a steel 1/4 or 5/16 inch rod - tap a thread in the end for your jag and brush, make a small brass guide with 45 degree taper on so it only contacts the end where the barrel is crowned - I cut about 3/4 inch off the under rib and the steel rod lives on the rifle - the bore guide fills the space where you cut the rib short - hang it out about a half inch past the muzzle end - can get fancy if you like and make a little lump at other end to hold in the retaining clip in the rod channel (the little spring thats on the front lock screw)
    You like those dried patches eh! .....shooting a string at the range..... running it damp works better I reckon - I shot 25 for score at our club last sunday - damp patches, no cleaning - last one loaded as easy as the first - I bet I could have shot a hundred and stayed on target without having to clean the barrel. I like your idea for hunting tho!
    Something else you might try, when you get this rifle sorted out some - my CVA's are single wedge guns so a bit different but one 54 in particular I put a couple layers of yellow card (cut a manilla folder) right at the front between the barrel and the forend wood - just a piece about an inch square on the bottom flat and the two angled flats - might take two pieces - enough to make the wedge good and tight - might even have to lean on it to get the wedge in - your rifle with the two wedges I would want the front wedge tight rear one loose - gives you two distinct points of contact and puts even tension on the barrel - might not do anything either - maybe though? I have seen more than one bloke over here with a hook barrel gun glass bedded at front and rear - (they dont talk about it! its not the blokes in the bottom half of the scoreboard either).
    Well I will try to stop the next lot of rain before it gets to you guys - sure could use a couple inches here .
    Joe
    Back from the range and a Happy man. One inch groups at 50yds and with over 30 shots fired not a single flyer. Dry patch Ballistol, .570 ball, 120gr homemade powder, bruised shoulder...……...

  18. #38
    Boolit Master
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    Nice find, congratulations!
    Hell, I was there!

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check