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Thread: New CVA 45 Cal. Mountain Rifle

  1. #1
    Boolit Master vrh's Avatar
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    New CVA 45 Cal. Mountain Rifle

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ID:	221658Been looking for a CVA 45 Cal. Mountain Rifle for quite some time. I knew that they were rare, but I kept looking.
    Found a kit, new in box today. Jumped on it like a doggie and his bone.
    Will keep everyone on the building process with pictures.Click image for larger version. 

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    Da Okie/ Now known as Vearl

  2. #2
    Boolit Master
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    Check the barrel & see if it is a Douglass. If it says made in Spain it most likely is not. There great guns. I have a .50 that I bought the kit in 1979
    & still have it. Great rifles.
    Fly

  3. #3
    Boolit Mold
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    Hi, I`m new here, Nice find VRH. I managed to pick up a CVA Mountain rifle a while back in 58 calibre from a guy who had lived in Africa and hunted with it he had also taken it to the States competition shooting.
    Have a question and hope someone can offer a solution. It shoots beautifully with 120gr Goex 2F, 570 prb, and ticking. One ragged hole stuff at 50mts. My issue is and I hope Fly will chime in, is it throws 6-8 inch groups with home made Black powder at the same distance. I have been making my own Powder for a few years now as Commercial powder is hard to find and we have shipping restrictions on it. My homemade shoots well in my other flintlock and cap lock rifles but not this one, they are 50cal, any suggestions??

    One other thing while I think of it , is Potassium Nitrate restricted in the U.S? I see guys buy stump remover and the like to make their powder. Here I just go to the Farm supplies store and get 25kg of Potassium Nitrate for about $45us and a 2kg pack of sulphur for about $10us. That's pretty cheap when you consider Goex 2F sells here when you can find it for $50us a pound tin. It works out I can make 28kg of powder for the same price as a pound of Goex ,I try not to use too much of the Goex!!

  4. #4
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fly View Post
    Check the barrel & see if it is a Douglass. If it says made in Spain it most likely is not. There great guns. I have a .50 that I bought the kit in 1979
    & still have it. Great rifles.
    Fly
    Fly
    those made in spain CVA barrels were(are still) top notch shooters - douglass might make a difference to resale price but I dont believe it made a difference on the target

  5. #5
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tasbay View Post
    Hi, I`m new here, Nice find VRH. I managed to pick up a CVA Mountain rifle a while back in 58 calibre from a guy who had lived in Africa and hunted with it he had also taken it to the States competition shooting.
    Have a question and hope someone can offer a solution. It shoots beautifully with 120gr Goex 2F, 570 prb, and ticking. One ragged hole stuff at 50mts. My issue is and I hope Fly will chime in, is it throws 6-8 inch groups with home made Black powder at the same distance. I have been making my own Powder for a few years now as Commercial powder is hard to find and we have shipping restrictions on it. My homemade shoots well in my other flintlock and cap lock rifles but not this one, they are 50cal, any suggestions??

    One other thing while I think of it , is Potassium Nitrate restricted in the U.S? I see guys buy stump remover and the like to make their powder. Here I just go to the Farm supplies store and get 25kg of Potassium Nitrate for about $45us and a 2kg pack of sulphur for about $10us. That's pretty cheap when you consider Goex 2F sells here when you can find it for $50us a pound tin. It works out I can make 28kg of powder for the same price as a pound of Goex ,I try not to use too much of the Goex!!
    Are you weighing your 120 grains of homemade? I cant get the density into mine - my measures are about 20% lighter weight of powder so i cut bigger measures to save re adjusting sight settings - strange though ! I have shot CVA's for 30 years and usually they shoot any powder charge pretty well - not usually load sensitive to that extent.

  6. #6
    Boolit Mold
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    Up till now have been doubling the thrown measure IE: flask spout measured for 40gr 2F Goex so have been using 2x a spout full to give equivalent power range, same impact area on target. That means 6x spouts to get the 120gr. If it was a bit inconsistent on the up and down I would just assume powder fluctuations but the CVA is also tossing the balls left and right. Got me perplexed anyway, especially when the 50 Cal's shoot it fine and so does my Zoil Zauve another 58 cal.
    Powder is corned by sifting to size and not compressed. Have had arrive today a mini set of electronic scales, figured weighing powder was the next step so will see if that improves things.

  7. #7
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tasbay View Post
    Up till now have been doubling the thrown measure IE: flask spout measured for 40gr 2F Goex so have been using 2x a spout full to give equivalent power range, same impact area on target. That means 6x spouts to get the 120gr. If it was a bit inconsistent on the up and down I would just assume powder fluctuations but the CVA is also tossing the balls left and right. Got me perplexed anyway, especially when the 50 Cal's shoot it fine and so does my Zoil Zauve another 58 cal.
    Powder is corned by sifting to size and not compressed. Have had arrive today a mini set of electronic scales, figured weighing powder was the next step so will see if that improves things.
    Yeah I am puzzled by this the CVA barrels I have shot have all beeen very unfussy about powder quantity - my 50's I used to shoot 40 grains for 25 yards and just add more as the range increased - saved on sight adjustment - My 54 I started with 120 grains of FF - the ticking patch wouldnt take that all the time so I used a little backer patch on the powder first. You need good ball in these bigger calibres - so weigh and measure ten balls to see how that works . patch size ? if its too small is a headache loading - but yu getting a group with goex ................................ do all your basic stuff - weigh the charge - weigh and measure some balls - pick up patches and make sure shes not holin em - take the rear wedge out of the wood and put a piece of cardboard (manilla folder) between barrel and wood just in front of the forward wedge so it goes in TIGHT - just pack the width of the bottom flat is enough .........I would try all these one at the time - they all things that have made a difference for me at various times when I was getting serious .
    keep us posted eh.

  8. #8
    Boolit Master swathdiver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vrh View Post
    Click image for larger version. 

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ID:	221658Been looking for a CVA 45 Cal. Mountain Rifle for quite some time. I knew that they were rare, but I kept looking.
    Found a kit, new in box today. Jumped on it like a doggie and his bone.
    Will keep everyone on the building process with pictures.Click image for larger version. 

Name:	CVAMtnRifle009.jpg 
Views:	45 
Size:	101.5 KB 
ID:	221657
    Cool! I see despite the volumes of recent posts, folks think Douglas made the barrels. Yours, without seeing the barrel markings, was made prior to 1979 because of the patch box used. The barrel likely says "Made In The USA". Whether it has this marking or not, they are all exceptional shooters! Enjoy the build and making smoke when you're done!
    "He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God." - John 3:18

  9. #9
    Boolit Man
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    Good shooters. I have .45, '50, .54, and .58 Mountain Rifles. Its amazing how many of these kits are still around NIB. I bought a couple several years ago and still have a .32 on the bench under construction. Need to get back on it.

  10. #10
    Boolit Master

    Wayne Smith's Avatar
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    Tasbay

    What's the likelihood that your powder simply does not have the initial push to adequately obdurate the boolit while Goex does? It's the only difference I can think of. What is your boolit - pure or alloy?
    Wayne the Shrink

    There is no 'right' that requires me to work for you or you to work for me!

  11. #11
    Boolit Master
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    Nice, I have 3 kits I built. Love the CVA

  12. #12
    Boolit Mold
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wayne Smith View Post
    Tasbay

    What's the likelihood that your powder simply does not have the initial push to adequately obdurate the boolit while Goex does? It's the only difference I can think of. What is your boolit - pure or alloy?
    Hi Wayne,
    That thought had occurred to me though I did put one shot through a Conograph that a guy had at the range a while back out of curiosity and with the equivalent of 120gr in homemade powder it gave a reading of 1570 something FPS so I was pleased with that. The .570 balls I cast are from pure lead from roofing sheet. I have also experimented with .562 balls made from wheel weights with much the same effect as far as spread goes. Now that I think of it also had the same when I shot the .562 balls cast from pure lead which had me change to .570 balls in the first place. The .570 mould came from the guy who sold me the rifle, it was the one he used it just took him a while to find it. Only good thing to come out of this so far is my wife is quite happy , she knows I won`t get another gun till I get the one I`m working on shooting right

  13. #13
    Boolit Mold
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    Right may have found the problem but not getting the hacksaw out just yet. Did early no country of origin on barrel CVA Mountain rifles have coned barrels??.My one has defiantly got a coned barrel though its the first Muzzleloader I have come across with a Coned barrel, most I have aren't even really crowned. Was trolling the webb and found a forum discussion about a guy who's Muzzleloader was grouping about 2-3 inch at 50yds then throwing flyers 6-8 inch, very similar to mine though mine will throw flyers further out than that. Turned out his barrel had been Coned and after he had tried everything he could think of cut off 2 inches of the muzzle and crowned it, presto problem fixed. Was at the range yesterday and returned home just frustrated.
    Had in the past tried groups with Commercial Goex FF and shot nice tight groups though will admit only shot 2 or 3 groups. Found yesterday Goex was sending flyers as well.

  14. #14
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tasbay View Post
    Right may have found the problem but not getting the hacksaw out just yet. Did early no country of origin on barrel CVA Mountain rifles have coned barrels??.My one has defiantly got a coned barrel though its the first Muzzleloader I have come across with a Coned barrel, most I have aren't even really crowned. Was trolling the webb and found a forum discussion about a guy who's Muzzleloader was grouping about 2-3 inch at 50yds then throwing flyers 6-8 inch, very similar to mine though mine will throw flyers further out than that. Turned out his barrel had been Coned and after he had tried everything he could think of cut off 2 inches of the muzzle and crowned it, presto problem fixed. Was at the range yesterday and returned home just frustrated.
    Had in the past tried groups with Commercial Goex FF and shot nice tight groups though will admit only shot 2 or 3 groups. Found yesterday Goex was sending flyers as well.
    Tasbay
    Are you picking up your patches? For good groups they need to look good enough to use em again - with the black powder smudge dead centre in the shot patch - if they torn at all or cut -------------------------
    If you are getting 1570FPS out of a 58 you pushing it some - I would not trust a cotton patch to always stand that - other thing that will give you flyers is a smallish patch and the ball not quite centred - a 58 wants at least a 1&1/2 inch diameter patch - inch and 3/4 would proly be better. If you blowing patches options are 1)linen patch material 2) use a wad over the powder to stop the patch burning out - I used a calico backer patch on the powder in my CVA 54 with heavy loads about 1"diameter but it MUST be put downbore neatly, try a card wad over the powder might be easier. (none of that applies IF your patches are coming out of the bore intact) ......What lube ??? If you been using any kind of a greasy lube (bore butter or whatever) try a switch to moose milk (cutting oil and water 1:4) make the patches wet and just blot them on a piece of rag so they dont bleed water but still a touch damp. Weigh your roundball - I bought commercial cast 54 stuff here one time that would not shoot worth a squirt - 4 to 6 inch groups at 50 off a rest with a barrel that used to do half that at 100 - tried every dang thing else and in the end some Hornady ball fixed it. Theres just some little basic thing not right here. Coned barrel???? or is it just worn from careless use of the ramrod - either one - half to three quarters of an inch trimmed should fix it.

  15. #15
    Boolit Master 45-70bpcr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fly View Post
    Check the barrel & see if it is a Douglass. If it says made in Spain it most likely is not. There great guns. I have a .50 that I bought the kit in 1979
    & still have it. Great rifles.
    Fly
    I've seen the early barrels marked "Made in USA" that were rumored to be made by Douglas. How do you identify it as a Douglas?

  16. #16
    Boolit Mold
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    Quote Originally Posted by indian joe View Post
    Tasbay
    Are you picking up your patches? For good groups they need to look good enough to use em again - with the black powder smudge dead centre in the shot patch - if they torn at all or cut -------------------------
    If you are getting 1570FPS out of a 58 you pushing it some - I would not trust a cotton patch to always stand that - other thing that will give you flyers is a smallish patch and the ball not quite centred - a 58 wants at least a 1&1/2 inch diameter patch - inch and 3/4 would proly be better. If you blowing patches options are 1)linen patch material 2) use a wad over the powder to stop the patch burning out - I used a calico backer patch on the powder in my CVA 54 with heavy loads about 1"diameter but it MUST be put downbore neatly, try a card wad over the powder might be easier. (none of that applies IF your patches are coming out of the bore intact) ......What lube ??? If you been using any kind of a greasy lube (bore butter or whatever) try a switch to moose milk (cutting oil and water 1:4) make the patches wet and just blot them on a piece of rag so they dont bleed water but still a touch damp. Weigh your roundball - I bought commercial cast 54 stuff here one time that would not shoot worth a squirt - 4 to 6 inch groups at 50 off a rest with a barrel that used to do half that at 100 - tried every dang thing else and in the end some Hornady ball fixed it. Theres just some little basic thing not right here. Coned barrel???? or is it just worn from careless use of the ramrod - either one - half to three quarters of an inch trimmed should fix it.
    indian joe
    Yep have been checking the patches, the ones I have found could mostly be used again. browned patch centre of the cloth with star markings from rifling. Outside edges somewhat frayed/ blackened. Patches are cut at the Muzzle. Have tried some filler, Tea leaves , Bread crumbs, double patching . The patches are not cut or burnt through.
    For lube have tried Dish wash liquid and water dried on patches in the sun, Olive oil, even 15 w 40 motor oil and spit patch. Powder loads have been between 80 - 120 gr powder both commercial and homemade.
    The previous owner of the rifle used it in club shoots and hunting in Africa. He bought the gun to New Zealand with him from Africa. The barrel has defiantly been coned and its not wear from poor ramrod habits. I will try the larger patch, have been seating the ball about 1/8 inch below muzzle and cutting patch. I use Ticking for patch material. Balls are home cast, I`d be struggling to find Cast 58 cal balls anywhere down here.

  17. #17
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tasbay View Post
    indian joe
    Yep have been checking the patches, the ones I have found could mostly be used again. browned patch centre of the cloth with star markings from rifling. Outside edges somewhat frayed/ blackened.

    ####Thats ok - so long as they sound inside - frayed edges is ok

    Patches are cut at the Muzzle. Have tried some filler, Tea leaves , Bread crumbs, double patching . The patches are not cut or burnt through.

    ####If youre single patches are sound and not burnt/torn - forget the fillers -

    For lube have tried Dish wash liquid and water dried on patches in the sun, Olive oil, even 15 w 40 motor oil and spit patch.

    ####I would not rate any of those as a good patch lube - definitely not the dishwash and engine oil - go find a machine shop someplace and cadge a cupful of cutting oil (soluble oil that they use in their coolant pumps on lathe and milling machine) make up some moose milk and try it at least

    Powder loads have been between 80 - 120 gr powder both commercial and homemade.

    ####Thats a good solid load but nothing out of line - patches are standing up ok

    The previous owner of the rifle used it in club shoots and hunting in Africa. He bought the gun to New Zealand with him from Africa. The barrel has defiantly been coned and its not wear from poor ramrod habits.

    ####ok thats another box ticked -

    I will try the larger patch, have been seating the ball about 1/8 inch below muzzle and cutting patch.

    ####That should be plenty big enough patch - easy see by pulling one after you cut it and measure

    I use Ticking for patch material. Balls are home cast, I`d be struggling to find Cast 58 cal balls anywhere down here.
    ####Yeah same here - find a powder scale and measure a dozen to the same weight and shoot another test group - ticks another box

    ####Another thought - do you wash your ticking before you use it?? Always wash it - they put some kinda gluey gunk (call it size) in it to give a smoother feel when it comes off the roll - I iron mine after washing - makes it easier to cut patches -
    I'm gonna blame youre lube first


    ####then look at that coned barrel - I would put in the lathe - take half an inch off it and recrown it - shoot some more

    In case you wondering I am just across the ditch from you - 6 hrs west of sydney - are you north or south ? n which side wet side or dry side

  18. #18
    Boolit Master

    Beagle333's Avatar
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    That looks like a fun kit. Now I want one!
    KE4GWE - - - - - - Colt 1860, it just feels right.

  19. #19
    Boolit Master
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    If the barrel said made in USA it is a Douglas. OK you are saying you corn your powder? Corning is pressing it into a puck under high pressure,
    then letting it dry, then breaking the pucks up into chunks about the size of peas then grinding them into grains, then running the grains threw
    the appropriate size screen for 2ffg or 3fffg powder. If you are just wetting your meal powder with a binder included & pushing it threw a screen then
    letting it dry you are not truly corning it. You are making screened powder. Screen powder can be very fast but it is very light because it is not
    as dense. That's why you must use so much more volume to get the weight the same. Screen powder burns much dirtier than corned also.

    Fly

  20. #20
    Boolit Mold
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    Quote Originally Posted by indian joe View Post
    ####Yeah same here - find a powder scale and measure a dozen to the same weight and shoot another test group - ticks another box

    ####Another thought - do you wash your ticking before you use it?? Always wash it - they put some kinda gluey gunk (call it size) in it to give a smoother feel when it comes off the roll - I iron mine after washing - makes it easier to cut patches -
    I'm gonna blame youre lube first


    ####then look at that coned barrel - I would put in the lathe - take half an inch off it and recrown it - shoot some more

    In case you wondering I am just across the ditch from you - 6 hrs west of sydney - are you north or south ? n which side wet side or dry side
    Oh an Aussie!!. I`m in South Island , pretty much in the Middle , neither wet side or dry side.

    Ticking: Yep wash it and Iron it before Lube. Spoke to the guy who sold it to me today, He`s in top of North. He was using Bees wax and soluble paraffin, ticking, 570 Balls, 60gr & 120gr FFF charges. Reckoned it was one of the most accurate Muzzleloaders he`s had. Took it with him to the U.S.A and Bisley England, Don`t know what he was doing with it at Bisley. Interesting he said he had built it from a Kit but didn`t remember Coning the barrel.
    Rifling is Crisp and clean / well defined all way to about 1 1/2 inches from muzzle then fades away to nothing about 1/8 inch from muzzle tip.

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