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Thread: CZ-52 in 7.62x25 Cast Lead Projectiles?

  1. #1
    Boolit Master DonMountain's Avatar
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    CZ-52 in 7.62x25 Cast Lead Projectiles?

    I have a CZ-52 in 7.62x25 that I recently purchased some Starline brass for to start reloading. And looking through my bullet molds, the only one I have in that approximate size is the Lyman 311359, which is a pointed nose mold. Has anybody tried any of these in this pistol successfully? Are there any common molds used for this round successfully? And how about powders?

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    Boolit Master
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    I have run several bullet designs through my CZ-52, my ChiCom Type 54 Tokarev pistol, and a re-conditioned C-96 Mauser. I have not tried Lyman #311-359, and have not exceeded bullet weights of 100 grains.

    Easiest bullet to deal with has been the Lee 100 grain RN. It has two little lube grooves, and I seat the bullets with the case mouth centered over the middle drive band and set a moderate crimp. That's right--roll that case mouth edge right into the bullet sidewall. Why? Because the tiny little necks on 30 Mauser/7.62 x 25 Tokarev cases sometimes don't hold bullets in place during feedramp contact while cycling. Starline cases seem to hold bullets better than my reformed 223 Rem or 9mm Win Mag brass does.

    I have also used Lyman #313249 with some success, as well as Lyman #311419 for the 1500 FPS loads in the CZ-52 and my Ruger P-89X with 30 Luger barrel and 9mm recoil spring.

    Accurate Arms #7 is THE fuel for both the 30 Luger and the 30 Mauser/7.62 x 25 Tokarev, jacketed or cast. Tokarev-level data with 86 grain jacketed bullets shows 7.5 grains yielding about 1375 FPS from the Type 54. I run 7.0 grains of AA-7 under the 100 grain Lees, and these function well.
    I don't paint bullets. I like Black Rifle Coffee. Sacred cows are always fair game. California is to the United States what Syria is to Russia and North Korea is to China/South Korea/Japan--a Hermit Kingdom detached from the real world and led by delusional maniacs, an economic and social basket case sustained by "foreign" aid so as to not lose military bases.

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    Boolit Master Outpost75's Avatar
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    Condensed version cross-posted by permission of the author, Ed Harris on the 7.62x25:

    Feeding the Пистолет браконьера (Pistolet brakon'year) “Poacher’s pistol;” - Tokarev TT33 in 7.62x25mm

    In FS 214-11 I described my introduction to the 7.62x25 cartridge, then firing it in a surplus Czech Cz52. To complete my education, I felt it necessary to test fire also the most common service pistol in this caliber...

    Over 1.7 million TT33s were produced by Soviet arsenals before production ceased in 1954...

    The 7.62x25 Russian cartridge was adapted by the Soviets from the earlier M1896 7.63mm Mauser round...

    In 1930, the Soviet Union adopted the Mauser cartridge, under the designation 7.62 mm Type P, for the Tokarev TT-30 and TT-33 automatic pistols, and later for the PPD-40, PPSh-41, and PPS-43 submachineguns. Besides FMJ ball cartridges, API and tracer rounds were loaded by the Soviets during WW2 for submachinegun use. Bullet diameter was .307-.309” and weight 85-88 grains. W.H. B. Smith lists Russian P-Ball at 1378 fps from the TT33 Tokarev pistol, based upon the Soviet Red Army specification of 420 +/- 10 m/s. The US Army Foreign Science and Technology Center, Small Caliber Ammunition guide lists USSR “P Ball” as 500 m/sec (1,640 ft/sec) from the 25cm (9.8”) barrel of the PPSh-41 and 550 m/sec (1,805 ft/sec) from the 28 cm (11”) barrel of the PPSh43. This agrees with modern tests of surplus ammo.

    Hatcher's Textbook of Pistols and Revolvers (1935) described the 7.63 Mauser as developing 1300 fps. This was based upon US commercial ammunition loaded to a maximum average pressure of 29,000 psi. WW1 and WW2 German military loads approached 1400 fps from the Mauser M96 with 5.5-inch (14cm) barrel, according to contemporary sources. Hatcher stated that their penetration was eleven 7/8" pine boards, versus 5 boards for the .32-20 Winchester, .32 ACP, .38 Special and .45 Colt. The .45 ACP and .44-40 each penetrated 8 boards while the .38/.44 High Velocity, 9mm Luger, and .38 Colt Auto did nine. Only the .38 Super and .357 Magnum matched the Mauser's ELEVEN boards.

    While dimensionally similar, the Tokarev cartridge has a shorter neck and operates at higher chamber pressure, than CIP specifications for the 7.63 Mauser, (36,250 vs. 30,600 psi.) WW2-era and later Soviet "burp gun ammo" is too hot to fire in the “Broomhandle.” Doing so is like feeding the old girl a steady diet of proof loads!

    Yugo Privi Parisan (PPU) 7.62x25mm ammo I used in testing approximates Red Army service ballistics, about 1400 fps. Starline warns hand loaders not to use .30 Mauser brass in a Tokarev. This is because its 0.03” longer neck impinges against the origin of rifling in the shorter Tokarev chamber, spiking pressure and tearing case mouths off! Bill Brophy told me many years ago that 7.63 Mauser ammo ran OK in battlefield pickup PPSh41 “burp guns” thanks to sloppy wartime tolerances, when he tested captured Chicom weapons and ammunition in Korea while with the US Army.

    Czech-Tokarev rounds such as Sellier & Bellot, are said to obtain 550 m/s (1800 fps) from a 28 cm (11 inch) barrel. Czech M48 7.62mm ammunition is the subject of internet debate as to whether or not it really exists. No official documentation has ever been found that would indicate it was intended only for use in submachine guns. Czech army ammunition was packed in 8-round stripper clips, for ease of loading SMG mags, but conveniently, the CZ52 pistol also holds 8 rounds. Five clips were packed in each 40-round cardboard box. One type identified in the US Army Small Caliber Ammunition Guide has gray painted cases with the headstamp markings “aym” and a year of manufacture (usually 52 or 53). So far as I can determine, the Cz52 pistol was designed around the load the Czechs developed for their submachineguns. There apparently were not separate “pistol” and “SMG” rounds...

    All reader’s need to know is that both the Czech and Russian pistol designs are entirely suitable for 7.62x25 loads at loaded to full MAP and are quite strong enough for any sensible load. Sound CZ52, Tokarev and Combloc copies are quite safe with military surplus and commercial ammunition, including the Czech Sellier & Bellot, which in my chronograph tests approaches 1700 fps fired in the Cz52 with 4.7-inch barrel...

    In previous testing PPU (Yugo Privi Partisan)FMJ ammo shot to point of aim from my Cz52 at 25 yards. An average of ten 8-shot groups averaged 3.5 inches, with the largest group 4.6" and the smallest 2.9" This is fairly typical accuracy for fixed sight military handguns firing service ammunition. PPU ammo chronographed 1414 fps in my Cz52 and 1421 fps in the TT33. I fired corrosive Romanian “P” ball manufactured by Factory number 22 in 1984 as a benchmark. This attained an impressive 1461 fps from the TT33 pistol and over 1900 fps from a rebarrelled Remington Model 722 with 20” barrel.

    Reloading 7.62x25 is easy, thanks to affordable brass of high quality brass from Starline, and Lee dies. There is no need to frustrate yourself cutting down, resizing and neck reaming 5.56mm/.223 brass to feed your Пистолет браконьера or Pistolet brakon'year (Poacher’s Pistol).

    Before loading for your 7.62x25 pistol you will want to make a chamber cast. Measure both chamber neck and ball seat diameter. There is wide variation in chamber diameters in the east bloc stuff and groove diameters ranging up to .315. I've never seen a 7.62x25 barrel smaller than .308” groove diameter, but I have seen chamber necks as small as .330” which precluded loading bullets of diameter larger than .308”!

    A charge of 5 grains of Bullseye was recommended by Hatcher for the 7.63 (.30) Mauser. It is also listed by Lyman. This starting load won’t cycle 100% in my Cz52 or the TT33 with the Accurate 31-087B, but does with the heavier 31-100T. RCBS Little Dandy Rotor #10 meters an actual weight averaging of 5.3 grains of with current Alliant from my measure and cycles both pistols reliably with either bullet. Velocity approximates PPU at 1400 fps with Accurate 31-087T, or 087B and 1370 fps with 31-100T. It approximates the .30 Mauser at 1300 fps with the 90 grain Hornady XTP.

    “Magnum pistol” powders : Alliant 2400, H110/W296, and VVN110 all work well in near case capacity full loads. With the 7.62x25’s short neck, bullet pull may be inadequate to prevent bullets “telescoping” into the powder space, if bullet fit in the sized neck is not correct. Bullets suited to the M1 Carbine work best when a case full of slower-burning powder provides support to the bullet base, in the same manner as if loading black powder in the .44-40 Winchester. Having the bullet base protrude below the neck-shoulder junction does not cause problems when jacketed bullets are loaded when slower-burning powders such as #2400 are used which fill the case. With fast-burning powders and loading cast bullets recommended practice is to avoid deep-seated bullets to minimize risk of gas cutting and bullet base deformation. Good results are easily obtained with bullets optimized for the 7.62x25 such as the Accurate 31-087B and 31-100T.

    Based on previous successful experience in the .32 ACP I decided to try Olin AutoComp in loading for the 7.62x25. A charge of 7.4 grains was metered using RCBS Little Dandy measure rotor #9 which meters the 5.0 grain start load with Bullseye. This proved satisfactory giving 1353 fps with the Hornady 86-grain SP and 1450 fps with Accurate 31-100T.

    Water jug tests with the Hornady XTP were impressive, blowing the first gallon jug to smithereens in a manner similar to 110-grain .357 Magnum loads. The XTP bullet expands to about .50 caliber, stopping in the third gallon jug, denting its far side, not exiting. This is entirely adequate penetration for a defense load. PPU FMJ loads shoot clear through a 40-inch stack of water jugs and whistled through the trees downrange, as would be expected.

    Test firing my Polish copy of the TT33 there were no surprises. Point of impact firing PPU FMJ with its fixed sights was about inch high at seven yards, two inches high at 25 yards, four inches high at 50 yards and “dead on” at 100 yards. Sandbagged, handheld groups were about 3 inches at 25 yards, cast loads a bit better. All manner of cast bullets of various shapes fed reliably, even the Accurate 31-095T which has a ” meplat! The advantage of a bottlenecked case! The start load from Lyman, 5 grains of Bullseye occasionally bobbled with 85-87-grain bullets, but cycled reliably with Accurate 31-095T and 31-100T. Increasing charges to 5.3 grains ran every cast bullet tested!!! The RCBS Little Dandy measure Rotor #13 measures about 10 grains of Alliant #2400 which cycled the guns well. Velocity was 1277 fps from the TT pistol with the 93-grain Norma .307” FMJRN, and 1777 fps from the Remington 722. Plainbased cast bullets of 13 BHN alloy did not lead severely, and shot well in the pistol, but did lead badly and shot wildly at over 1800 fps in the 20” rifle. Data are summarized in the accompanying table.

    Attachment 221669Attachment 221670Attachment 221671

    Table 1 – Velocity Test Data for 7.62x25 in TT33 Pistol - Handloads in Starline cases with CCI500 primers
    Ammunition Description___________Vel@15ft., Sd, ES n=10
    ____________________________________TT33, 4.6”
    Romanian Type P Ball, Factory 22, 1984____1461 fps, 27 Sd, 76ES
    Yugoslav PPU Ball,_____________________1310, 26 Sd, 66ES
    Hornady 86-grain SP, 7.4 grs. AutoComp___1353, 20, 71
    Accurate 31-100T, 7.4 grs. AutoComp_____1450, 16, 50
    Accurate 31-087B, 5.3 grs. Bullseye_______1433, 28, 71
    Accurate 31-087B, 10.8 grs. #2400________1321, 11, 32
    Norma 93-gr. FMJU .307”, 10.8 grs. #2400__1277, 18, 44

    Attachment 221668
    _______________________________________
    Last edited by Outpost75; 06-05-2018 at 10:16 PM.
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  4. #4
    Boolit Master
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    Gotta try those "100%-density Alliant 2400" loads with the new castings (Acc #31-087B) and perhaps the Lee 100 RN.
    I don't paint bullets. I like Black Rifle Coffee. Sacred cows are always fair game. California is to the United States what Syria is to Russia and North Korea is to China/South Korea/Japan--a Hermit Kingdom detached from the real world and led by delusional maniacs, an economic and social basket case sustained by "foreign" aid so as to not lose military bases.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check