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Thread: 405 grain HB again

  1. #1
    Boolit Buddy
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    405 grain HB again

    was gonna post this where it belongs but the thread is closed this afternoon???
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    two versions of the LEE 405 HB boolit - both flat base (made a longer base plug fer the small boolit and turned the tit off the base plug fer the shorter one) - milled a little off tthe nose so it was 100% safe in the tube mag - 335 grain and 405 grain finished weight - and yes they both haul plenty lube for blackpowder.

  2. #2
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    Beats me...Why it was closed. Hopefully some one chimes in with an explination?
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  3. #3
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    The HB has a purpose you know?
    It moves the center of gravity forward and makes the bullet more stable, it's not just a nonsense tidbit added for "fun".

    As to bullet points and tubes, it's internet nonsense!
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  4. #4
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    that Lee 405 was designed as a copy of the government bullet design from trapdoor days. its design is to move weight forward for as much stability [the later 500 grain government bullet used the bore riding nose to fulfill this] as well as help the rear flair out into the generous grooves of a military rifle [ also taken care of with the heavier 500 grain bullet which would obturate when kicked in the seat with 70 grains powder] and that nose is designed to keep being able to continue loading into a fouled bore when the chips of battle are being waged.

    that bullet is not a {accidental} design. many a man hour was put into the various designs of the military bullets and arms.

    the modified bullet , while it may suit the builders ideas and pacifie years of old wives tales, is just a dandy bullet as is with no mods needed. the mods spoken of here are to suit the particular shooters desires ... not of need to change a faulty bullet. i have shot hundreds of these as is thru my Marlins and Winchesters with nary a bobble nor setback. always with either 55 grains 2Fg with a dob of smokeless as a cleaner and kicker as well as the 70 grain loads that were intended with this bullet in the first place.

    having said this ... these bullets were intended and designed for the good old trapdoor springfield rifles both long rifles as well as the carbines. lever guns with this caliber need wernt to be for several years in the future of when thay were designed.

    i cant blame you tho Joe for reworking them to your own desires , but know that they were designed thusely for a few criteria and served well during this time. not saying that you did not know this , but , wish other readers to maybe understand the intended usage of the original bullets with no real need to modify them.
    WHEN ALL IS SAID AND DONE...MORE WILL BE SAID THEN DONE

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Knarley View Post
    Beats me...Why it was closed. Hopefully some one chimes in with an explination?
    Your thread Knarley, I thought you must have done it - dont know ya but thought it was a strange thing to do - out of character with the tone of your writing - looks like a gremlin got in.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by 17nut View Post
    The HB has a purpose you know?
    It moves the center of gravity forward and makes the bullet more stable, it's not just a nonsense tidbit added for "fun".

    As to bullet points and tubes, it's internet nonsense!
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    I reserve the right to be nervous where a roundish boolit nose rests inside the primer pocket of the one in front! Theres a pound of ammo in that tube - a distinct ker-lunk when it feeds one - I use federal primers because they soft and take less of a hit to detonate (the guy with the hammer test used CCI) - the CAS guys have written up several instances of henrys blowing the magazine from dropping the follower - thats not impact in the magazine tube??? - you can call internet bull$hite if you like - I have no interest in finding out who is right just in case it might be me!

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigted View Post
    that Lee 405 was designed as a copy of the government bullet design from trapdoor days. its design is to move weight forward for as much stability [the later 500 grain government bullet used the bore riding nose to fulfill this] as well as help the rear flair out into the generous grooves of a military rifle [ also taken care of with the heavier 500 grain bullet which would obturate when kicked in the seat with 70 grains powder] and that nose is designed to keep being able to continue loading into a fouled bore when the chips of battle are being waged.

    that bullet is not a {accidental} design. many a man hour was put into the various designs of the military bullets and arms.

    the modified bullet , while it may suit the builders ideas and pacifie years of old wives tales, is just a dandy bullet as is with no mods needed. the mods spoken of here are to suit the particular shooters desires ... not of need to change a faulty bullet. i have shot hundreds of these as is thru my Marlins and Winchesters with nary a bobble nor setback. always with either 55 grains 2Fg with a dob of smokeless as a cleaner and kicker as well as the 70 grain loads that were intended with this bullet in the first place.

    having said this ... these bullets were intended and designed for the good old trapdoor springfield rifles both long rifles as well as the carbines. lever guns with this caliber need wernt to be for several years in the future of when thay were designed.

    i cant blame you tho Joe for reworking them to your own desires , but know that they were designed thusely for a few criteria and served well during this time. not saying that you did not know this , but , wish other readers to maybe understand the intended usage of the original bullets with no real need to modify them.
    I went for that boolit because of the lube grooves, can shoot it all day without a foulout, so the magazine detonation may be old wives tales - I have zero interest in proving that and I reckon its too blo@dy late afterwards . Have shot a good few of these with the clipped nose and the HB intact (390grains like that and no wad) - with a milk carton wad over the powder and the flat base - clipped nose - I reckon a little better accuracy - not much but a little. They come out of the mold a little easier - not much. Originally I was looking for a 350 grain mold suitable for blackpowder (the 45-75 was supposedly designed for that weight and lower - 76 wouldnt handle the govmt 405 grain boolit - another old wives tale asit turns out!) I couldnt source a commercial mold in that weight range with decent lube capacity so I bought my first 405 HB mold with that in view and altered the base plug up to 330grains weight - 2 good lube grooves - only later I tried the heavier slug and it shot ok.
    Ten shots at 100yds with the 405 LEE as modified - the last ten of forty fired with out cleaning - 65 grains blackpowder, juice box wad over powder, good conditions and I dont usually hold it that good.
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  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by indian joe View Post
    I went for that boolit because of the lube grooves, can shoot it all day without a foulout, so the magazine detonation may be old wives tales - I have zero interest in proving that and I reckon its too blo@dy late afterwards . Have shot a good few of these with the clipped nose and the HB intact (390grains like that and no wad) - with a milk carton wad over the powder and the flat base - clipped nose - I reckon a little better accuracy - not much but a little. They come out of the mold a little easier - not much. Originally I was looking for a 350 grain mold suitable for blackpowder (the 45-75 was supposedly designed for that weight and lower - 76 wouldnt handle the govmt 405 grain boolit - another old wives tale asit turns out!) I couldnt source a commercial mold in that weight range with decent lube capacity so I bought my first 405 HB mold with that in view and altered the base plug up to 330grains weight - 2 good lube grooves - only later I tried the heavier slug and it shot ok.
    Ten shots at 100yds with the 405 LEE as modified - the last ten of forty fired with out cleaning - 65 grains blackpowder, juice box wad over powder, good conditions and I dont usually hold it that good.
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    That target tells me your practice period is done , and you done good

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edward View Post
    That target tells me your practice period is done , and you done good
    Ahhh practice time is never done --I been burning some powder the last three months and its starting to show a bit - but I dont usually hold it that good - burn enough powder and maybe .........................

  10. #10
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    Well gotta say ... your success is there and cant argue with that.

    Can you get molds from Tom at "accurate molds" ? He has some great ones and can build you exactly what you want. I have ordered several molds from him and not only great prices on molds but his workmanship is up there with any out there. Good molds to say the least. I have a few 3 banger aluminum molds from him that are light and throw purrrrrrfect boolits.
    WHEN ALL IS SAID AND DONE...MORE WILL BE SAID THEN DONE

  11. #11
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    Dont know where i got the notion but seems like i got the impression that you live in OZ ... is that correct or am i full of it?
    WHEN ALL IS SAID AND DONE...MORE WILL BE SAID THEN DONE

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigted View Post
    Dont know where i got the notion but seems like i got the impression that you live in OZ ... is that correct or am i full of it?
    You got it ! Downunder it is - have had several trips across the big water - 05-08-12-13 maybe not again tho - had friends in nebrasky that was home base and loan me wheels - contacts in a few other places that would camp me for a week or so - good times with good people..................

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigted View Post
    Well gotta say ... your success is there and cant argue with that.

    Can you get molds from Tom at "accurate molds" ? He has some great ones and can build you exactly what you want. I have ordered several molds from him and not only great prices on molds but his workmanship is up there with any out there. Good molds to say the least. I have a few 3 banger aluminum molds from him that are light and throw purrrrrrfect boolits.
    Think I can do that - others here have done - have scrutinised his website /catalog a couple of times already - proly where I will end up but need to figure out what I want / what will work first. I dont mind the process as it unfolds (more burnt powder )

  14. #14
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    If you read the US Army tests of the 1870s ,there were several magazine explosions in the test guns.Admittely with a different type of priming than the modern cases have.

  15. #15
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    Thumbs up

    Looks to me like you dun gud fer what ya wanted to do. I like the 405HB like it is, BUT I am shooting it in a single shot H&R. Not to mention sometimes a fella needs a bullet that is just his, ya know? Ain't a thing wrong with it.

    Oh and as for fillin the hollow base with lube (from the other thread), I only know of one particular feller I ever met who did it. I've heard tales of others. Myself I just pan lubed 'em. Grooves a plenty in that design!

    God Bless, and One Love

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  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoodOlBoy View Post
    Looks to me like you dun gud fer what ya wanted to do. I like the 405HB like it is, BUT I am shooting it in a single shot H&R. Not to mention sometimes a fella needs a bullet that is just his, ya know? Ain't a thing wrong with it.

    Oh and as for fillin the hollow base with lube (from the other thread), I only know of one particular feller I ever met who did it. I've heard tales of others. Myself I just pan lubed 'em. Grooves a plenty in that design!

    God Bless, and One Love

    GoodOlBoy
    Yeah it works fine as cast - and in a single shot there no reason to mess with it
    Plenty of fellers here think I am some kinda stoopid to be concerned about boolit nose to primer contact in a magazine and as proof of that ....post an article where some idjit has live rounds in a vice and pounding on em with a hammer - makes me wonder who is the stoopid ?
    When I bought the LEE mold the whole purpose was to modify it and get me a blackpowder lubed boolit under 350 grains weight - that being the conventional wisdom around the 1876 ... for some reason probably best known to Uberti they put a 20 twist barrel in the 45/75 (the other calibres they set up with slow twist barrels that probably DO limit weight to that number - 45/60=1:40, 50/95 = 1:48) so shooting the heavier boolits was kind of an afterthought for me - but the rifle seems to like them so thats where we at. I had not thought about point of balance in this boolit and have shot enought minies that I was unbelieving of base expansion with that dinky little HB + extra thick skirt + alloy ......maybe with a pure lead slug it would ?
    I bought a couple of spare base plug assemblys from LEE so I can switch it back any time but I like the flat base better if using a overpowder wad.
    I have had 40 of those 405's through my rifle without a clean and dont think 100 would be any more problem - just love those big lube grooves!!!
    Last edited by indian joe; 06-06-2018 at 09:38 PM.

  17. #17
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    Very interesting. I like your experimentation.

    I've seen many others sweat that they need to swab the bore after every few shots, which made me ignore .45-70 lever action rifles. Your shooting seems to indicate it is more of a bullet issue, ie, carrying enough lube.

    I'd like to know if others have had the same luck with these kinds of bullets.

    PS I also agree with flat nose bullets in tube magazines. I had a .50BMG go off when loading a belt. The belt kinked and a bullet was dragged across a primer enough to cause the ignition. Yep, NO impact, just pressure.

  18. #18
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    Made it to the range today. Shot some 405gr. flat base, 405 hollow base & 405 hollow base with wads.

    Starline brass annealed, 70gr./weight, FFg Old "E" drop tubed and compressed .060 gasket material wad. All out of Pedersoli 45-70 34" bbl.
    Flat base out shot them all, wad underneath. Hollow base next, and in last place was the hollow base with wads. SPG lube.

    Flat base won quite decisively, followed by the plain hollow base. Hollow base with wad was a distant third.
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  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Knarley View Post
    Made it to the range today. Shot some 405gr. flat base, 405 hollow base & 405 hollow base with wads.

    Starline brass annealed, 70gr./weight, FFg Old "E" drop tubed and compressed .060 gasket material wad. All out of Pedersoli 45-70 34" bbl.
    Flat base out shot them all, wad underneath. Hollow base next, and in last place was the hollow base with wads. SPG lube.

    Flat base won quite decisively, followed by the plain hollow base. Hollow base with wad was a distant third.
    thanks for posting Knarley --ya made my day

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by charlie b View Post
    Very interesting. I like your experimentation.

    I've seen many others sweat that they need to swab the bore after every few shots, which made me ignore .45-70 lever action rifles. Your shooting seems to indicate it is more of a bullet issue, ie, carrying enough lube.

    I'd like to know if others have had the same luck with these kinds of bullets.

    PS I also agree with flat nose bullets in tube magazines. I had a .50BMG go off when loading a belt. The belt kinked and a bullet was dragged across a primer enough to cause the ignition. Yep, NO impact, just pressure.
    Charlie at the same time I bought the LEE 405 HB , I also got their 457-340 mold - chalk and cheese ! the 340 is straight up a smokeless boolit - two little skinny lube grooves - my rifle is nicely run in and it wont do ten (over blackpowder) of those without leaving a little smidge of lead - still was on target but five more woulda put it in the ditch I reckon. Fouling control is top of my list for accuracy with blackpowder - if you not on top of it you come unstuck - some fellers handle it by cleaning between shots - I dont have the patience for that -- well I do if that was the only choice but I always took the view the old timers didnt have to do it -----we dont either.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check