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Thread: found one disadvantage

  1. #1
    Boolit Master






    Lloyd Smale's Avatar
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    found one disadvantage

    been shooting the snot out of my new ar15 9mm pistol. Its a 4.5 inch gun. Its been a bit finiky from the git go. But I think I figured out one cure. It had no feed ramp to speak of. I had bullets diving out of the mag and hitting right below the small amount of forcing cone and stopping dead jamming the gun. So I went to work with a dremel and cut more of a ramp. It helped a lot but I still had stoppages. I started paying attention and first found that all the miss feeds were with pc coated bullets. It seemed to run about everything conventionally lubed fine. then I got looking even closer and found what was giving me the trouble was SOFT hp pc coated bullets. I did a batch of the same bullets in solid form pc coated out of an alloy close to ww and water dropped them out of the oven and ive ran over 500 rounds without a single miss feed. I think its a combo of the soft lead and the grabby quality of pc paint (for lack of better words) that just had to much friction to feed well without a good feed ramp. Lead has a natural lubricating quality that was just enough better to feed just fine even soft. I pulled my hair out before I sat and opened my eyes a bit. I tried 3 different buffer springs 3 different buffer weights and even blamed magazines and ended up finding that once I discovered this the original set up worked just fine and all my mags work just fine. then I got looking around on the net and found a company that sells a 9mm AR barrel with an actual feed ramp. Looked at his add and right in the add he said he didn't guarantee function with pc coated bullets so I'm probably not the first one that's discovered this.
    Soldier of God, sixgun junky, Retired electrical lineman. My office was a 100 feet in the air, closer to God the better

  2. #2
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    Hi Lloyd, do conventionally lubricated cast bullets cause any issues with the gas system? Thanks, Tom

  3. #3
    Boolit Master sparkyv's Avatar
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    I had the impression that the PC was not "grabby", but rather exhibited a lubricating quality. Hmmm, I guess I learned something new today.

  4. #4
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    Rcmaveric's Avatar
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    Reminds me of the powder coated feed ramps and trigger parts on my Hi Points. Stripping the PC and polishing the metal fixes 75% of the problems with those guns. I only PC the wifes bullets because she likes pretty colors. The powder coated bullets aren't the slick in the hands. Actually easier to hold onto. PC is not as much a lubricant as it is a barrier similar to a copper jacket.
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  5. #5
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    Lloyd Smale's Avatar
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    not true. Run some pc bullets and coventionaly lubed bullets over your chronograph and youll find that pc bullets are slower. you don't see anyone pc coating the crank bearings (which are made of lead and tin) in a motor. Same thing goes for jacketed bullets. Lead bullets with the same powder charge always run a bit faster then jacketed.
    Quote Originally Posted by sparkyv View Post
    I had the impression that the PC was not "grabby", but rather exhibited a lubricating quality. Hmmm, I guess I learned something new today.
    Soldier of God, sixgun junky, Retired electrical lineman. My office was a 100 feet in the air, closer to God the better

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tatume View Post
    Hi Lloyd, do conventionally lubricated cast bullets cause any issues with the gas system? Thanks, Tom
    9mm ar15s are not gas operated there recoil operated.
    Soldier of God, sixgun junky, Retired electrical lineman. My office was a 100 feet in the air, closer to God the better

  7. #7
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    Lloyd Smale's Avatar
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    PC is not a magic elixer for poor casting/loading techniques!!!!!!!!!!!! It is just a clean & easy replacement for sloppy dirty old grease lubes of the past.
    bangerjim posted this in the thread about shooting unsized pc bullets. I hope he doesn't mind me using his quote. the fact they are much cleaner is the biggest advantage to them in something like a 9mm or any pistol. Velocitys arent that great that its needed to prevent leading. Preventing leading is important when your shooting at higher velocitys. With pc bullets I can shoot 500 of them through my 9mm AR without cleaning. Shoot 200 conventionaly lubed bullets and your action is a greasy mess.
    Soldier of God, sixgun junky, Retired electrical lineman. My office was a 100 feet in the air, closer to God the better

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tatume View Post
    Hi Lloyd, do conventionally lubricated cast bullets cause any issues with the gas system? Thanks, Tom
    Like Lloyd said, 9mm ARs don’t have a gas system. My 10” 300 Blackout does and it’s at about 7K rounds now, all of which were conventionally lubed cast bullets. The bolt gets dirty a little quicker than with jacketed, but nothing cleaning a little more often won’t fix.
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  9. #9
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    Hello Lloyd!

    I ran nearly 500 of the (Store bought) Federal SYNTEC bullets thru my .40 AR without a hitch... That was AFTER I re adjusted the mag position with the standing ejector screws. (I just started powder coating my cast and haven't built any for the 40 yet.)

    I found a happy medium, as You say softer bullets are lil more problematic. I don't know if you have seen the FEDERAL SYNtec bullet, but they look like a very thick coating like early NYCLAD bullets. heck they look like they could bounce!! You CAN dent the coating with a stiff fingernail.

    So, does your AR have the ability to adjust the mag, for a better shot into the barrel's chamber?



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  10. #10
    Boolit Master popper's Avatar
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    SOFT hp pc coated bullets You changed 2 things to get good results.
    Whatever!

  11. #11
    The other thing that I'm curious about is whether you hardened the conventionally lubed bare-lead boolits or were they just as soft and hollow-pointed as the PC boolits.

    Even with a ramp, my Kimber occasionally grabs a cast boolit. I've noticed that with a full mag the first two cartridges nose-dive as the slide contacts the case head. There is enough force to put a dent in the nose of the boolit. I've even noticed a dent in some FMJs. I'd bet that if I hardened the lead the failures would stop.

  12. #12
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    Dragonheart's Avatar
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    Lloyd, have you considered the problem is with the HP bullet design and not the PC itself. The PC will hold the the alloy together, but PC will not keep a softer alloy from deformation on impact. Bare alloy can deform and even strip off portions of the metal allowing it to chamber.
    A lot of us have guns that simply do not feed well with certain bullet designs, myself included. I have a 9mm 1911 that doesn't like anything with a flat point, but round the nose off some and it will shoot all day. PC is a much slicker surface than bare alloy, but once deformed the fact it is holding the alloy together could indeed make it problematic as the soft alloy deforms then hangs.

  13. #13
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    not so much that hps cause the problem or add to it but soft alloys do. I ran a group buy 147 hp and solid version casted out of near pure and had lots of jams. Same bullet as a solid cast hard ran well. Same bullet conventionaly lubed and cast soft ran well too. So it seems to be a combination of soft alloy and pc. There is a company that sells a barrel with a ramp and a bolt cut to fit it. Might be something to check into in the future but I just don't have another 300 bucks to throw at a 500 dollar gun right now. As it is it runs the 130 grain round flat pc'd and water dropped like butter and that's all I need for plinking and it runs xtps just fine if I want to use it for serious work.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dragonheart View Post
    Lloyd, have you considered the problem is with the HP bullet design and not the PC itself. The PC will hold the the alloy together, but PC will not keep a softer alloy from deformation on impact. Bare alloy can deform and even strip off portions of the metal allowing it to chamber.
    A lot of us have guns that simply do not feed well with certain bullet designs, myself included. I have a 9mm 1911 that doesn't like anything with a flat point, but round the nose off some and it will shoot all day. PC is a much slicker surface than bare alloy, but once deformed the fact it is holding the alloy together could indeed make it problematic as the soft alloy deforms then hangs.
    Soldier of God, sixgun junky, Retired electrical lineman. My office was a 100 feet in the air, closer to God the better

  14. #14
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    I think a feed ramp would be an asset, but I wouldn't put $300 into it either, especially if you have found a cure.

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    I know it might seem like a redundant step, but could you possibly apply a very thin layer of tumble lube?
    I would think that would help get the round into the chamber.

  16. #16
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    yup but a semi auto gun doesn't run long with messy tumble lube on bullets. Main advantage with pc to me is its a lot cleaner then conventional lubes and light years cleaner then tumble lube. Before id use tl id just go back to conventionaly lubed bullets.
    Quote Originally Posted by ThomR View Post
    I know it might seem like a redundant step, but could you possibly apply a very thin layer of tumble lube?
    I would think that would help get the round into the chamber.
    Soldier of God, sixgun junky, Retired electrical lineman. My office was a 100 feet in the air, closer to God the better

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check