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Thread: 410 India made Ball tight fit

  1. #1
    Boolit Man MotelAlpha's Avatar
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    410 India made Ball tight fit

    I bought a container of the India made 410 cartridges with a lead ball measuring right at .409. The lead seems soft, but I don't have a gauge to measure hardness. My question is will this be safe to shoot in my Baikal SxS I slugged the bores and they are .018 (.391)smaller in diameter than the ball from the cartridge. Surely full choked.The barrel thickness at the muzzle is thicker then my other 410 by quite a bit, and measure .081 each.
    Last edited by MotelAlpha; 05-29-2018 at 08:51 PM. Reason: correction in sentence

  2. #2
    Boolit Master
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    I suspect this is the .410 ammunition you have is the 410-inch-mk1-indian:

    https://www.luckygunner.com/410-inch...all-180-rounds

  3. #3
    Boolit Grand Master Outpost75's Avatar
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    The modified Lee Enfields used by India police are cylinder bore. Unless you can test the hardness of the balls as not exceeding 6 BHN I would NOT shoot them in a choked barrel.
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  4. #4
    Boolit Master
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    Would these work in a judge?
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    Boolit Man MotelAlpha's Avatar
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    Yep, thats the stuff. I bought it on lark of curiosity, but also for some additional brass. There isn't any actual shooting information out there, so I am kind of looking to find out for myself.

  6. #6
    Boolit Man MotelAlpha's Avatar
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    jdfoxinc, I would think since the judge barrel is essentially a 45cal, that there would be no problem. That should also be a great small varmint gun you have, or ????

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    Boolit Master

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    small bores already operate at higher pressures and that's a lot to swage down imo.
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  8. #8
    Boolit Master
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    I'd shoot these for plinking. I also have a snake charmer cylinder bore.
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  9. #9
    Boolit Man MotelAlpha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hogtamer View Post
    small bores already operate at higher pressures and that's a lot to swage down imo.
    I know as the 410 is rated pressure wise a lot higher than the others (15K to 18k). I also just watched a video of some guys shooting 44 mag, and 444 out of a full choked 410? bore measured .387 I think. My guess is that with the long chamber is allowing the high pressure to run a fairly long length instead of just and only in front of the cartridge??

  10. #10
    Boolit Grand Master Outpost75's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MotelAlpha View Post
    I know as the 410 is rated pressure wise a lot higher than the others (15K to 18k). I also just watched a video of some guys shooting 44 mag, and 444 out of a full choked 410? bore measured .387 I think. My guess is that with the long chamber is allowing the high pressure to run a fairly long length instead of just and only in front of the cartridge??
    Sounds to be to be an almost sure way to burst a barrel. Speaking from experience here, my childhood gun was a .410 single-shot and I used to shoot .44 Game Getter roundball loads in it. These were a pure lead .425" round ball and worked fine. Then sometime later I tried handloading and cast balls from wheelweights, loaded some up with 8 grains of Unique and split the muzzle behind the choke on the first shot when the harder wheelweight ball wouldn't squeeze through the choke. I cut the split muzzle off with a tubing cutter and the remaining bore was .425 and I've continued using it as my snake gun around the farm ever since.

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  11. #11
    In Remembrance bikerbeans's Avatar
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    The manufacturer of this 410 ammo states these cartridges are not for standard 410 shotguns.

    BB

  12. #12
    Boolit Man MotelAlpha's Avatar
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    I poured a cast of my barrels today, and found a VERY tight bore not reaching .408 till 13" back, and then to 410 at 16.5". So indeed this may be why I have heard of excellent accuracy ( no slug bouncing around, and quite thick barrels from the breech on out."
    Last edited by MotelAlpha; 05-31-2018 at 08:23 PM. Reason: typo

  13. #13
    Boolit Master
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    So BB is a judge a non-standard shotgun?
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    Quote Originally Posted by jdfoxinc View Post
    So BB is a judge a non-standard shotgun?
    It doesn't take a lot to understand that a Lee Enfield in .410 is NOT a standard .410.
    The .303 Brit operates at a considerably higher pressure than any .410 shotshell load.
    Yes, bikerbeans made an accurate statement.

  15. #15
    Boolit Man MotelAlpha's Avatar
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    When I get back from my vacation, I will send Precision reloading the requisite 6 rounds and have them document exactly what these are producing in both velocity and pressure. I'll post their findings.

  16. #16
    In Remembrance bikerbeans's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jdfoxinc View Post
    So BB is a judge a non-standard shotgun?
    IMO, a Judge isn't a standard anything. The overbore might save you but the 45 colt and 410 are both low pressure loadings so I doubt Taurus made that wheel gun for high pressure.

    BB

  17. #17
    Boolit Man MotelAlpha's Avatar
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    I agree , it was made for 1st gen 45 colt loads which is definitely low pressure.

  18. #18
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by Outpost75 View Post
    Sounds to be to be an almost sure way to burst a barrel. Speaking from experience here, my childhood gun was a .410 single-shot and I used to shoot .44 Game Getter roundball loads in it. These were a pure lead .425" round ball and worked fine. Then sometime later I tried handloading and cast balls from wheelweights, loaded some up with 8 grains of Unique and split the muzzle behind the choke on the first shot when the harder wheelweight ball wouldn't squeeze through the choke. I cut the split muzzle off with a tubing cutter and the remaining bore was .425 and I've continued using it as my snake gun around the farm ever since.
    I think what the OP describes would be some way off sure to burst a modern .410 barrel, but not as far off as I would want to actually do it. The British-Indian .410 cartridge is .303 length, which offers two perhaps unsuspected additions to the danger. Shotgun bursts generally happen when something happens to decelerate the missile, and the 3in. chamber most .410s for the American market now have would give a much better chance for this to happen than one ending immediately ahead of the ball. Also the ball may upset even further over bore diameter than it started out, increasing the impact. A soft ball might actually increase the chances of trouble.

    You, on the other hand, were more unlucky. While an over-hard missile, such as steel shot, can indeed swell the choke of an old barrel in soft or thin steel, a split behind the choke wouldn't be caused by this. What happens is that the gases, which have mass and inertia, build up in a very local area of high pressure behind the projectile. In your case it happened with thin steel but low pressure, of the kind that would have been easy on the eardrums an inch or so further on. But at the front of the chamber it would be very dangerous indeed.

    Here are my picture of a double ring bulge and a split, both experimentally induced by obstructions in a condemned but in fact exceptionally strong single shotgun barrel. With double the number of barrels, and a need to keep their weight down, they would have been much more dramatic.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Click image for larger version. 

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    What happens with the double ring bulge is that the high pressure gas buildup bulges the barrel, and then being elastic, bounces backwards. My obstruction, two steel nuts wrapped in tissue, moves forward slightly. The gases bounce off the rear interior of the cartridge case and come back again, bulging the barrel in a new place.

    Your lack of luck was that the ball didn't exit before the gases caught up.

  19. #19
    Boolit Bub
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    Quote Originally Posted by bikerbeans View Post
    ...the 45 colt and 410 are both low pressure loadings so I doubt Taurus made that wheel gun for high pressure...
    Unless you have the Raging Judge. 454 Casull pressures means lots of 'wiggle room'.

  20. #20
    Boolit Master
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    Just received my 2 wood boxes. Boy they didn't want these to go bad. Wood case with steel banding, cotter pin lock, soldered closed steel inner box with liberal green laqure coating. "Take hold of wire loop tear off the lid by giving a sharp pull."
    Last edited by jdfoxinc; 06-02-2018 at 02:29 PM. Reason: #$/^;&>[( autocorrect
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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check