.22 Long/Long Rifle CF from .25ACP Trials.

[Chev. William]

i have decided to make some of "NoZombies" .22 Ladybug cases using a series of Drill bushings mounted in Machined PT&G Blank die bodies (@ $20.00 each blank and about $7.00 each Hardened (Rc61) Alloy Steel Drill bushing).

I machine the Blank die body on a Friend's Lathe as his work schedule and available Machine time permits.

The Die bodies are Drilled and Tapped for 1/2-20UNF x 1-1/2" Full Threads deep in the top for any accessories.
The Die Bodies are Drilled and Reamed to .4999" diameter and about 5/8" deep to accept a pressed fit bushing with a lip for swaging down over the bushing to solidly retain it.
All die Bodies are also drilled 3/8" Through for extractor punch clearance.

The size Drill Bushings used are: .277, .272, .2656", .261", .257", .250", and .246" with two of the .246" used (one with radius entry down and one with square exit down).

I have chosen to use a Batch of 500 each PPU .25ACP cases I bought form Graf And Sons that turned out to be .617" or more long and .274"-.276" diameter which was out of range for my .25ACP needs.

The First Sample swaged down quite well, with the thin displaced Brass ring 'shearing' off at the Extractor Clearance Cut (ECC) until the .250" swage step.
As the ECC was .250" no real 'shearing' happened. then the .246" step formed the displaced brass ring into a 'fillet radius' on top of the rim.

This will need to be turned off to make the rim top a square corner again.

Thinking on this process problem; perhaps it would be a good Idea to re-machine the ECC to a smaller diameter before these last two swaging steps and the subsequent .246" shearing step, to complete the formed case.

Holding a .25ACP case reliably in the available 6 Jaw chuck may be a problem that I will have to further consider.
Chucking the case far enough out to machine will entail clamping on the thin wall of the case body.
Without internal support, the thin wall will probably collapse under clamping / turning pressures.

Luckily the cases seems to extend in length slightly as the diameter is reduced.
So perhaps the 'Ladybug' trim length of .625" will be met.

These formed cases will have a rim diameter of .304"-.307" like the parent .25ACP; so it my also be useful to turn the rim diameter down for feeding from magazines made for .22Long RF cartridges.
That should not be problem for hand feeding as single shot only.

Note that all this Experimental 'swaging' of Brass cases is done on my used RCBS "RC" loading Press.

Note also buy the matching Drill Bit to go with the Drill Bushing ID; for the inevitable 'Stuck Case' when you forget to lube each case before swaging it.

Chev. WilliamBoth Bullets and Cases, that is!

[NorthCoastBigBore]

Following with great interest, here and in the other thread. Your summary above is good.

I can see a number of useful applications (the 22 WRF being one; and generally being able to fine tune the accuracy of old rifles that aren't up to the backthrust from HV ammo), for myself.

[NoZombies]

Nice Work Chev!

You're taking a lot more steps than I am, and I suspect that it probably makes each step pretty easy in the RC.

For holding the cases in the lathe I made a very simple tubing collet out of spring steel, it allows me to clamp on the collet with enough force to hold everything, but applies pressure to the case through about 350 degress rather than at 3 or 6 points.

[James Wisner]

As to holding the brass in the lathe.

Turn the brass case around.

Machine on the lathe a stud/mandrel, use about 3/8" diameter material, then turn the very end down to match the primer pocket minus a couple of thou smaller, also minus about .010" in length/depth of the primer pocket.

The small nose will index the brass on its center, then the shoulder will contact the case head and index the brass so you can then reach in and cut the groove depper buy what amount you need.

The tail stock live center is used to keep the case pushed up against the shoulder and to keep the case neck centered as well.

For such a light cut it will work well.

I use this same process when I am making 35 Rem cases from LC 308 cases and am taking a much heavier cut.

JW

[jdfoxinc]

Or make a die that holds the case head out far enough you can recut the grove and take off that rolled edge squareing up the base. Remove the case from the "die" with your shell holder.

[Chev. William]

Those are all good suggestions that I will think on to work out a good way to do it with the tooling and Work time available.

Perhaps a combination of the methods.

Chev. William

[Chev. William]

Overnight thoughts:
Use an "emergency" Collet machined to hold the Rim in its Face and fitted with a Center "Primer Pocket" sized pin to further add stability to the combination.
A "replaceable nose" Live center with a nose machined to match The Swaged case inside shape and dimensions would add Support and possibly prevent cutting side forces from knocking the case out of the collet.

This would take some very careful machining as the rim is only .032" minimum thickness.

Perhaps a negative angle on the collet rim recess would add holding power (the exposed edge is smaller than the wall near the Base of the machined rebate)?

Chev. William

[Chev. William]

As to holding the brass in the lathe.

Turn the brass case around.

Machine on the lathe a stud/mandrel, use about 3/8" diameter material, then turn the very end down to match the primer pocket minus a couple of thou smaller, also minus about .010" in length/depth of the primer pocket.

The small nose will index the brass on its center, then the shoulder will contact the case head and index the brass so you can then reach in and cut the groove depper buy what amount you need.

The tail stock live center is used to keep the case pushed up against the shoulder and to keep the case neck centered as well.

For such a light cut it will work well.

I use this same process when I am making 35 Rem cases from LC 308 cases and am taking a much heavier cut.

JW

This Idea is intriguing as it Sounds Simple to implement in My friends Shop without overly disturbing his scheduled work flows.

How do you prevent the Live Center tapered Tip from expanding the case mouth?

Chev. William

[Chev. William]

Overnight thoughts:
Use an "emergency" Collet machined to hold the Rim in its Face and fitted with a Center "Primer Pocket" sized pin to further add stability to the combination.
A "replaceable nose" Live center with a nose machined to match The Swaged case inside shape and dimensions would add Support and possibly prevent cutting side forces from knocking the case out of the collet.

This would take some very careful machining as the rim is only .032" minimum thickness.

Perhaps a negative angle on the collet rim recess would add holding power (the exposed edge is smaller than the wall near the Base of the machined rebate)?

Chev. William

3C collets are about the right size; BUT adapter Holder to use them in a Six Jaw Chuck seem to be non-existant. Demounting and remopunting the Six Jaw Chuck is not conductive To quick use of my friends Lathe without interfering too much in his scheduled work.

5C collets do have an adapter holder available that will clamp up in the six Jaw Chuck but have Much more Capacity than I really need. Additionally I found out that the INTERNAL threading is NOT Specified on datasheets for any of the "C" Collets! These Internal threads are used for Work stops and Spring work ejector mountings. The Collet External threads are used for the Clamping actuating attachment, be it a Drawbar/Drawtube, a Nut, or an Automatic Cylinder, Etc.

"Emergency" Collets are made in both Series, and have a soft, unhardened, work face but Hardened body and threads.
Interestingly, the 3C Emergency collet cost ~$30 on Ebay and the 5C Emergency Collet cost ~$8 on Ebay.
A 5C adapter Holder cost ~$40 on Ebay, it has a Round Cylindrical Hardened Body for gripping in a Lathe Chuck.

Chev. William

[Chev. William]

DRAT!
I stuck Another case, this time in the .261" (G drill) ID swaging die.
I was using a cleaning patch that was soaked with oil two days previous and stored in a closed Plastic box between swaging sessions.
I guess, adding Oil to the patch will be added to my process listing now.

Sunday, my friends Lathe was available; so I drilled out the stuck case using a New "G" Drill bit and low spindle speed but not in back gear.
Onward to complete this swaging step on this lot of about 75 cases.

The 5C 'Emergency' collet arrived in Saturday's mail.
The 5C adapter holder is projected to arrive in about two weeks according to the seller's estimate.

I will Need to set up these before I swage below .257" Body Diameter, as the .25ACP Extractor Clearance Cut is slightly more than .250" Diameter on these cases.

Between Swaging steps I may machine the needed the Needed mandrels to try out Mr. Wisner's suggested method.
Chev. William

[Chev. William]

i have made some progress on my Experiment in forming .22 Ladybug cases from .25ACP cases via 'Drill bushing derived swaging dies'; I have 49 out of a starting lot of 60 cases swaged down from .276" diameter to .257" diameter!

My 'Losses' are attributed to 'learning Errors' on my part in learning to use these Drill Bushing derived swaging dies effectively.
- Three were from failure to 'catch' the extracted swaged case as it exited the die, they were "lost" when they bounce into some dark and unexposed corner of my 'Shop' (outside Patio reloading 'Shop').
- Eight were from my failures to insure the case was accurately Aligned with the Drill Bushing mouth and resulted in either a crushed case or a case with a deep edge crimp .
- Three were 'Stuck' Cases from my Case 'lube' process failures; I did not use enough 'lube'.
- The remainder were from ' over swaging' errors of adjustment of the Dies resulting in 'coining the rims thin and over diameter.

The Hardened Alloy (either 4140 or 52100 depending on source) Steel bushing Require a different technique than the carbide ring derived swaging dies I have used in my other experiments.

I do not yet have adjustment locking ring nuts for the die bodies as none came with the Blank Die bodies from PT&G.
- Aviation 'Shear Nuts' are a possibility; but are much thicker than what I would like.
- Ordering some as 'replacements' from a Commercial die maker such as Lee, RCBS, Hornady, Reading, ect. is still a future option.
- I have spare spanner type locking rings somewhere for my Hollywood Engineering Reloading dies; but they are larger in overall diameter than either Lee or RCBS and do not fit in their replacement Die boxes comfortably. They also will NOT fit the double sliding tube packaging my PT&G Blank die Bodies arrived in.

I am holding off on the next swaging step, to .250" case body diameter, until I can make the tools/jigs to machine the Extractor Clearance cuts down in diameter to at least .244" so ther is a 'shear point' on the body for the displaced brass 'ring' that is occurring from the small radius at the mouth of the Drill bushings. Past swaging experience has shown me that a slight taper 'lead' in the mouth of the 'swaging die' greatly reduces this 'ring' as it give a gentler and smoother forming of the Brass down to the new diameter. Using many closely spaced swaging steps also reduces the size of the 'ring' as the difference between the starting and ending diameter at each step is smaller; so the radius at he mouth is less steeply forming the case brass.

One consideration in my making tools in my friends lathe is that it is NOT fitted with travel readouts; so the 'long axis' is by guess and by feel as to face cut depths. The cross axis is fitted with a marked dial so it is much more repeatable in it setting for diameter cuts.

My process uses an RCBS 'Primer Pocket Swaging Kit' Small Primer Swaging Punch, Stripper cup, and a 3/16 ID Fender Washer to support the Primer Pocket while driving the cases into the swaging dies; so my Primer Pockets remain the correct diameter and depth. The flash holes do shrink in diameter however, and mus tbe drilled out to clear a decapping punch when swaging is complete.

'One step at a time' will eventually see these experiments reduced to a easily repeatable process suitable for many others to also use.
I am Also thinking Custom Carbide Rings would be a nice replacement for the Steel Drill Bushings; but the expenses would be much higher.
- I am spending roughly $8.00 each for the steel Drill Bushings.
- I believe Carbide Type Drill bushings would cost in the neighborhood of $40 to $150 each in single quantities.

Chev. William

[Chev. William]

After thinking more about it, I went ahead and swaged the remaining 49 cases to .250" body diameter and had NO Further Losses!
The .250" diameter cases do have an adherent 'ring' of displaced Brass just above the Rim; but a few have the 'ring' sheared off And I was able to remove the 'ring' by filing it thinner in one point and then breaking it at the thin point.
Measuring these few cases, I found the Extractor Clearance Cut (ECC) was about .246"-.247" diameter, slightly below nominal for the .25ACP; but apparently within CIP Allowances.
The ones with the adherent 'rings' seem to have ECC at or much closer to .25ACP nominal diameter. Visibly some are adherent around most of the circumference and some are adherent only in one area of the circumference with a 'smeared' appearance to the adherent area. Perhaps these were slightly 'off centered' in the machining step?

Also there is a visible, but not easily measurable, difference between upper body and lower body (over the Web area) diameter. This may be due to 'Work Hardening' making the web area harder than originally manufactured.

Such a Hardening may be both good or bad as increasing strength also brings along increasing brittleness that will only show up in the future firing of these cases.

Meanwhile I am at a point where I need to wait for Items coming in the mails and for my next Social Security and Retirement Pension deposits before expending any more funds. I still have some bills to pay and Food to buy this month.
A good Time for Thinking and Planning my next actions on this project.
Chev. William

[NorthCoastBigBore]

Fascinating to read your observations and progress Chev William; can't wait to start in on this myself. Keep up the good work folks....

[Chev. William]

I finally got the swaging / Forming dies together and took some photos.
Here are photos of my case forming dies.
My .25ACP to .22 Ladybug dies are made from PT&G $20 Blank Die bodies and employ ~$7 Hardened Steel Alloy Drill Bushings for the sizing bores. Most are 'Letter Sizes' but there is also a 17/64 (.2656") one included.
The following views are of my dies for reducing .25ACP and similar body diameters down to .22 Ladybug body diameters:
Click image for larger version. Attachment 222542
Top and side view of dies (tops tapped 1/2-20UNF) with one Body in side view and the 8" long by 3/16" diameter Pin Punch (with rounded tip end edge) I use to drive the swaged case out of each of the Dies involved.

Click image for larger version.Attachment 222543
Bottom view of the homemade dies with the Left ones fitted with Drill Bushings and the rightmost one a machined blank body. Sizes are: "D"(.246"), "E"(.250", "F"(.257"), "G"(.261"), 17/64(.2656"), "I"(.272"), and "J"(.277").

Also shown is a machined Blank Die Body ready for a 1/2" ODx1/2" High Drill Bushing insertion (with a Turned 'Lip" to be hammered over the end of the bushing to retain it) and the 8" long 3/16" diameter Pin Punch I use to remove swaged cases form the dies. The punch working end had been modified with a slight taper and radius on the edge.

The following views are of my dies for forming 5.7x28mm and .22 Hornet down to .25ACP body diameters:
Click image for larger version.Attachment 222544
Click image for larger version.Attachment 222545
These dies are, from the Left, Lee opened Carbide Ring .25ACP Sizing Dies of .300", .288", .284", and .2785"; with the rightmost die a Hollywood Engineering Steel .25ACP sizing die.
Chev. William

[Chev. William]

Redding makes TiN coated (yellow colored) Neck Sizing bushings that are intended to swage down case necks to restore neck tension. These are roughly 1/2" Outer diameter by 3/8" long and come with a shallow groove machined in the outer surface. Redding name and the decimal size is stamped into the "mouth", or entry, end and the opposite end, the exit" is blank.

Prices of these are somewhat higher than the non-coated ones that I bought from Granger, but still within my Budget limits so far.

I have run out of 'Discretionary spending funds' for the rest of July so i will not be getting more Blank Die Bodies to machine to hold these Redding Bushings soon.

Chev. William

[Chev. William]

A previously paid for NOE Precision Bullet Mold came in the USPS Mail today.
It is a "225-39-FN-B2" four cavity Aluminum Alloy Mold. After I eventually get this, and some other NOE Molds marked with my ownership, I will negotiate with a Commercial Bullet Casting Company to have bullets cast.

I think I may "tumble lube" the bullets I eventually receive.

Chev. William

[Chev. William]

Further Incentive to continue Development of my 'version' of the ".22 Ladybug-Repeater CF cartridge", is to experiment with a CF converted Ruger Standard Auto Pistol; sort of a Modern Version of Col. Askins 1935 National Match Championship winning ".221 Askins" CF Custom Colt Woodsman Pistol.

As of the Last Monday in July, I started The California 10 Day Purchase Process for a used, and modified, Ruger Standard Auto MKII .22LR Pistol with Volquartsen molded target Grips fitted.
This is my Second Ruger Standard Auto Pistol.

Chev. William

[fast ronnie]

In regards to the travel when cutting in the lathe, I mounted a two inch dial indicator so that it contacts the carriage to cut to a certain length. I used a piece of 3/8ths x 1" piece of cold rolled mounted to the headstock with a couple of screws. This piece is drilled and tapped for 3/8ths threads in 1" increments with a stud that can be changed to different holes to mount the dial indicator with a swivel type adapter/clamp.

[Chev. William]

In regards to the travel when cutting in the lathe, I mounted a two inch dial indicator so that it contacts the carriage to cut to a certain length. I used a piece of 3/8ths x 1" piece of cold rolled mounted to the headstock with a couple of screws. This piece is drilled and tapped for 3/8ths threads in 1" increments with a stud that can be changed to different holes to mount the dial indicator with a swivel type adapter/clamp.

Good Idea! I will discuss it with my Friend who owns the special effects shop (and lathe) I borrow use of.

Chev. William

[Chev. William]

Local weather here has been Uncomfortably Hot and Humid the Month of August Plus Wind blown Ash and Dust has coated my Outdoor Reloading "shop" so I have 'hidden' during the Midday heat in my marginally air conditioned Bedroom (I have a 6000BTU rated window air conditioner serving my bedroom that struggles to hold the inside temp 20 degrees below the outside temp, or 75 degrees F, which ever is higher.

Chev. William