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Thread: Trouble with 9mm 147 grain lyman

  1. #1
    Boolit Bub
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    Trouble with 9mm 147 grain lyman

    Just purchased a new Lyman 356637 4 cavity, drops perfect bullets, but I can't seem to get them to stabilize in any of my 9mm pistols. Wondering what I may be doing wrong here. My lyman cast boolit manual does not even list this mold so having a bit of trouble with load data, so far I have only tried 3.0 and 3.5 grains titegroup. Have tried sizing to .356, .357, and .358 seated to 1.100 chambers and feeds perfect. Almost every round is keyholed. Not stable at all. I have cast and shot many thousands of rounds but this is the first time having any trouble. 3 different pistols, CZ75SP01 Shadow, Smith and Wesson M&P, and Glock 9mm, none of these pistols will shoot the lead worth a darn, but all shoot jacketed 147 grains perfectly.

    I have also tried these bullets at .358 with 4 grains of Win 231 in my Ruger GP100 38 special, shoots perfect and very accurate. I must be doing something wrong. Any Ideas? Other powders? Thanks.

  2. #2
    Boolit Buddy glockfan's Avatar
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    could it be that your lead is too hard,then not gripping the riflings enough to stabilize? i have this exact mold and i need to size to .357 for my glock 17 and 34 to be accurate,but darn accurate.i'm using COWW with nothing added . my load for plinking is mild.

    3.2 of VV320 at 1.130 coal .

  3. #3
    Boolit Master tazman's Avatar
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    I had problems with that boolit as well. Unfortunately, I don't have any of the pistols you mention so I can't give you specific recommendations.
    I have never found that going harder with alloy makes the boolit grip the rifling less well. My experience has been the exact opposite. Too soft an alloy allows the rifling to shear the sides of the boolit destabilizing it. Harder alloy grips the rifling better.
    Here is your data from the Lyman 49th handbook.
    According to this, you are pushing the boolit too hard with an overcharge.
    Click image for larger version. 

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  4. #4
    Boolit Buddy
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    I bought such a mould not long after they became available. As-cast diameter was .357", probably what it was supposed to be, but slightly too small for best accuracy in most 9mm pistols. I tried eight powders and nothing shot particularly well.

  5. #5
    Boolit Master tazman's Avatar
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    If you are looking for a good shooting heavy boolit for 9mm, try the NOE 358-155-TC(ELCO). It was designed for 9mm from the start and performs well in both 9mm and 38 special. In hollow point configuration, it drops right at 147 grains with range scrap.
    Do a search on this site for tc(ELCO) and you will find several threads with lots of information on it.

  6. #6
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    I'm using that bullet cast from WW, sized .358 over 2.5 grains of TG, OAL 1.050". My Camp-9 loves the load, as does the M11/9mm. I haven't tried it in a handgun, but the M11 is a 5" barrel, and isn't having any stability issues. Both guns are accurate and quiet (suppressed) with that load.
    Nozombies.com Practical Zombie Survival

    I collect all things .32. If you have something you don't need, please let me know!

  7. #7
    Boolit Master Grmps's Avatar
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    It's a new lyman mold.
    first cast 5 sets of boolits and keep them separated by the cavity they came out of.
    then measure and weigh each group of boolits to see if the boolits are round and uniform between the cavities
    I've seen some terrible results out of newer Lyman multi-cavity molds 5-7 grains in weight and up to 4 thou in diameter between the 4 cavities
    If the boolits are uniform and dropping around .357-.358
    are you lubing or coating your boolits?
    what alloy/ how hard an alloy are you using?
    If you haven't slugged the bores of your guns I would do so.

    Jacketed bullets often shoot fine undersized where lead will not.
    with lead boolits, you need to match the diameter and hardness with the slugged bore size and speed your shooting the boolit.

    Are you getting any leading?

    I agree with tazzman
    back off you powder charge to 2.5 grn titgroup (starting load) and try that, also try another powder in that list starting with the lowest charge and working up

  8. #8
    Boolit Bub
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    Thanks for all the replies. Will definitely back the charge down. Been using both the NRA formula lube and red dragon with carnuba, not seeing much leading at all. never have with any cast boolits using the red dragon. I Have randomly checked some of the boolits for size seems to consistently drop at .359-.360 with straight wheel weights.
    Last edited by cz75shadow; 05-28-2018 at 08:07 PM.

  9. #9
    Boolit Bub
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    Quote Originally Posted by glockfan View Post
    could it be that your lead is too hard,then not gripping the riflings enough to stabilize? i have this exact mold and i need to size to .357 for my glock 17 and 34 to be accurate,but darn accurate.i'm using COWW with nothing added . my load for plinking is mild.

    3.2 of VV320 at 1.130 coal .
    Just using wheel weights as well, sized to .358

  10. #10
    Boolit Master
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    I have that mold and have no problems with it. It is my go to one also.Not use in the guns that is stated, but works in my Sigma and M&P
    Life Member of NRA,NTA,DAV ,ITA. Also member of FTA,CBA

  11. #11
    Boolit Master GhostHawk's Avatar
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    It has been my experience in 9mm that when you get keyholing the bullet is too small.

    Now I can't swear that is the case for yours. And I won't bet the farm on it. Daddy taught me never bet the farm on anything.

    But I would try a .358 or even a .359.

    I've shot a lot of soft lead over the last 4 years, mostly with few problems.
    I do much prefer 50/50 with COWW if I can find it, and add 1% tin/pewter.

    Still fairly soft but works well in lower speed rifle and pistol.

    Chamber cast? I've done slugging in the past but my opinion is you get more information from a good chamber cast or pound cast. That is where I would start, and bullets 2 thousandths larger than groove, maybe 3.

  12. #12
    Boolit Buddy
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    Salutations from Nevada to Newfie Land!
    This has been a good accurate boolit in my 9mms. Usually I start low with cast and work up until leading occurs or groups enlarge and call that over max in my firearm at that col. You ought to try a reverse procedure and work down until you get a stable group.
    In any case I like the max col that will chamber in the intended firearms. So can you go longer than 1.100" col to avoid upset and limit riveting.
    Yeah GhostHawk, I've learned a bit from pound casts.
    Also I just use a sizer die just large enough to lube without damaging the boolit with a nose punch that keeps it straight.
    Last edited by oso; 05-29-2018 at 01:07 PM. Reason: nose punch helps concentric sizing
    Just because change doesn't make a difference doesn't mean that change is bad.

  13. #13
    Boolit Buddy fivefang's Avatar
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    Cz 75 shadow, have you pulled any of your re-loads & ckd. the base diameter?, are you using a "M "die to expand your casings properly, as you are deep seating your bullets , I think the OAL should be 1.161" , I load cloes to that with the Saeco #383-140 gr.& it is very accurate in my CZ75, 213 Norinco, key-holing usually comes from undersize bullet bases, Fivefang

  14. #14
    Boolit Bub
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    Any longer than 1.100 oal and they will not chamber in my cz. Not using an M die, have to check that for sure! I have 3 different die sets for my 9's
    lee, lyman, and rcbs, was using the rcbs expander and just belling the case mouth. May be onto something here. More than likely a couple issues going on.

  15. #15
    Boolit Master tazman's Avatar
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    I remember having to load short to get them to feed. Look at the load data from the Lyman manual I posted in #3. They recommend an OAL of 1.058". That is about where the sweet spot seems to be for this boolit and most chambers.
    There is so much drive band on this boolit inside the case that keeping the base of the boolit full size can become an issue. That is why they beveled the base so much.

  16. #16
    Boolit Mold
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    A stout load of a slow powder is about the only way I got that one to stabilize most of the time. Anything faster burning that Power Pistol and it was a coin toss as to whether it would go through paper pointy-end-first. Mine drops a bit undersized so beagling the mold did help some too.

  17. #17
    Boolit Bub
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    Don't think I have any slower powder kicking around, have win 231, 296, H110, titegroup and 700x. Have to check and see what I can find locally. Usually do my powder orders in bulk to save $$$. Slower powder makes sense, I load a lot of rifle, and generally the heavier the bullet the slower the powder gives me the best accuracy, probably the same with the pistols

    the 296/h110 are probably too far the other way..
    Last edited by cz75shadow; 05-30-2018 at 09:56 AM.

  18. #18
    Boolit Bub
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    Quote Originally Posted by fivefang View Post
    Cz 75 shadow, have you pulled any of your re-loads & ckd. the base diameter?, are you using a "M "die to expand your casings properly, as you are deep seating your bullets , I think the OAL should be 1.161" , I load cloes to that with the Saeco #383-140 gr.& it is very accurate in my CZ75, 213 Norinco, key-holing usually comes from undersize bullet bases, Fivefang
    Are Lyman dies the only "M" type? perhaps I should order one for all the pistol calibers I load?

  19. #19
    Boolit Master tazman's Avatar
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    NOE makes that style of die for many calibers. With theirs, you buy a body and get inserts in the calibers you need. They also make custom plugs for Lee powder through dies.

  20. #20
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by cz75shadow View Post
    Are Lyman dies the only "M" type? perhaps I should order one for all the pistol calibers I load?
    Another option are the RCBS Cowboy dies, which are more cast bullet friendly in terms of sizing and expanding. They are made not to over size the brass and a little more generous in the expanding phase.

    Currently, I am working with .359 diameter bullet in 9 mm. I am using my 38/357 cowboy die to expand the neck.........the button measures .356 compared to .352 in the the RCBS expander in the 9 mm carbide set. The button for the 38/357 carbide standard (non cowboy dies) measures .354 diameter.

    Winelover

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check