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Thread: FN-FAL, I'm a hopeless gun nut

  1. #21
    Boolit Bub
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    [QUOTE=Ballistics in Scotland;4381737]
    Quote Originally Posted by one-eyed fat man View Post
    ...the.276 Enfield, ... the 280 British... when America insisted on what would become the 7.62x51 NATO...
    It was during the cartridge wars of the Fifties where trying to overcome the American insistence on their T65 cartridge where the British tried several variations of their original .280 British aka 7 mm MK1Z. They set about meeting the American objections by producing more powerful versions of their cartridge, with the support of Belgium and Canada. The first change was to upload the 43 mm case to 2,550 fps with the 140 grain bullet

    Colonel Renée Studler, head of the US Small Arms Bureau of Ordnance went on record, stating that, any non-American design was "a waste of time" going so far as to bury reports that suggested the .280 was superior in US testing.

    "Despite this setback, Britain, Belgium and Canada combined (in the ‘BBC Committee’) to make one last attempt to develop a new 7 mm round which would be acceptable to NATO. Various lengthened cartridges with such designations as ‘Optimum’, ‘High Velocity’, ‘Compromise’ and ‘Second Optimum’ were developed, mostly with 49 mm cases although the final attempt was simply the 7.62 x 51 necked-down to 7 mm. Muzzle velocities were in the range 2,750-2,800 fps with the 140 grain bullet. However, the Americans still would not be convinced. In any case, the recoil had by this time increased significantly and the balance of the original concept had been lost. At the end of 1953, the BBC Committee reluctantly bowed to American pressure and the 7.62 x 51 was formally adopted as the new NATO cartridge.

    The only result of all of this effort was the 7 x 49 Venzuelan aka 7mm Liviano, which saw service in an FN FAL selective-fire rifle which was sold to Venezuela. This cartridge was adopted by Venzuela around 1952, the only country to do so, and then dropped by them in favor of the 7.61 x 52 around 1955.

    Now your reference to the much earlier high-velocity .276 Enfield, that came about as a result of the Second Boer War. Boer marksmen equipped with the Mauser Model 1895, in 7×57mm caliber gave not inconsiderable grief to Tommy Atkins and his Long Lee and .303 Ball, Cordite, Mark II.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by one-eyed fat man View Post
    Now your reference to the much earlier high-velocity .276 Enfield, that came about as a result of the Second Boer War. Boer marksmen equipped with the Mauser Model 1895, in 7×57mm caliber gave not inconsiderable grief to Tommy Atkins and his Long Lee and .303 Ball, Cordite, Mark II.
    The British have always been quite good at saying, in the words of Kipling:

    "Let us admit it fairly, as a business people should,
    We have had no end of a lesson: it will do us no end of good."


    They weren't, of course, the only business people to find that. The ballistic superiority of the 7x57 over the .303, or the superior accuracy of front locking over rear, weren't the lessons that really mattered, though. Kipling was writing in wartime, at a time when the Boers no longer had fixed position, and the British mounted infantry had made a pretty convincing job of learning to be Boers. In firearms technology, their main deficiencies were in inadequate sights, the lack of a charger guide and the choice between carbine and long rifle lengths. The SMLE remedied all of those, with an excellent adjustable rear sight, and the P14 introduced the extreme novelty of a well protected aperture sight, which has carried over into every subsequent American military rifle.

    Of course most of the world promptly got into the sort of war in which the resistance to jamming of the Lee-Enfield was priceless, and long-range precision usually wasn't. Late in the Lee system's life the rear sight reverted to a flip-over two-range leaf. That's the way lessons go.

  3. #23
    Boolit Bub
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    The Spaniards top Kettle Hill in Cuba made a considerable impression on a young colonel of volunteers a couple of years before the Boer War. Say what you will, but if the incoming rounds are so plentiful as to inhibit one’s forces from executing maneuver, the enemy has achieved a tactical advantage. The evidence in how the experience affected him is easy to find in his later actions as President. In one conversation with the Chief of Ordnance concerning replacing the Krag, Theodore Roosevelt was quoted as saying, "Why not just buy the Mauser?" Revising the way state militias were equipped "The Efficiency in Militia Act of 1903", also known as the Dick Act, establishing the National Board for the Promotion of Rifle Practice and the National Matches are the main examples. His reputation for valuing a good rifle and rifleman did not end there.

    One tradition he started was to write a letter personally congratulating the winner of the President's match.
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  4. #24
    That sounds like a tremendously good idea. The winner of the British Queen's Prize doesn't get a letter from the Queen, but a signed photograph isn't bad.

    https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/...d-1486475.html

    I think the US did in effect buy the Mauser, for the M1903 is basically just a rather good Mauser, and one in which no major design feature can be traced to the 1898 version. Mauser sued and were awarded $250,000 in royalties. It mightn't be coincidence that that sum was the same as was deliberately contracted by Britain with James Paris Lee.

  5. #25
    Boolit Master
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    the buttplumber (mark grahm) does a reliably good job assembling FAL, but he has a bit of a personality that you have to get used o, adn doesn't know how a glock works, or how to weld up a bren re-build. still, you will get a well built rifle, i'm sure. i have a weakness for the inch guns, myself, having built or owned a dozen or so FAL.

  6. #26
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by justashooter View Post
    the buttplumber (mark grahm) does a reliably good job assembling FAL, but he has a bit of a personality that you have to get used o, adn doesn't know how a glock works, or how to weld up a bren re-build. still, you will get a well built rifle, i'm sure. i have a weakness for the inch guns, myself, having built or owned a dozen or so FAL.
    You sir, deserve the "Understatement of the Month" award.
    Liberals don't know they're stupid in the same way a fish does not know it is wet. It is just their natural state of being.

  7. #27
    Boolit Master
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    GONRA's FAL is a "G series" original semiauto imported in the early 1960's.
    Shot zillions of handloads out of it decades ago. Really phun to shoot!

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ballistics in Scotland View Post

    I think the US did in effect buy the Mauser, for the M1903 is basically just a rather good Mauser, and one in which no major design feature can be traced to the 1898 version. Mauser sued and were awarded $250,000 in royalties. It mightn't be coincidence that that sum was the same as was deliberately contracted by Britain with James Paris Lee.
    The U S Chief of Ordnance arranged with Mausers partners and legal representatives to pay royalties on those features lifted from the Mauser. Front locking lugs were not one of these because Mauser had not invented these.
    Bolt actions with front mounted lugs dated to the 1850's with the Greene rifle.
    Mauser did not sue over any infringement. He made a claim for back pay at the end of WW1 because the government had cut off payments of royalties during hostilities with Germany because he was an enemy national. He received a bit more than the sum you mention.

    Before that the Comptroller of the Treasury had objected to the Chief or Ordnance agreeing to a too generous contract which would have had the USA continuing to pay royalties even after patent protections ran their course.

    BTW despite the accuracy and speed of reloading of the Mauser the Spanish lost. The American army surgeons noted that wounds from the 7mm bullets had little stopping power compared to the .30-40 and that wounded Cuban fighters usually recovered without medical intervention.
    The Spanish were even more impressed by the Winchester Lee Straightpull rifles carried by the USMC.
    Last edited by Multigunner; 06-12-2018 at 09:59 PM.

  9. #29
    Boolit Master
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    I've got an FN 49 that I like quite a bit. I have about 20 empty cases (I wasn't saving them for a long time) and about 600 rounds (potential new cases). I have cast about 150 or so boolits, so I'm gonna shoot some of those rounds to get some cases and reload them!
    Right now, it mangles brass when it is shot with the gas port open. I've got the gp tool, I need to figure out how to set it so it doesn't mangle the brass...

  10. #30
    Boolit Master





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    1980's shredded??? You are at least 10-15 years to early for that the late 80's early 90's was the time of the FAL!!!

    You are showing you are a youngster.

  11. #31
    Boolit Master Artful's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geezer in NH View Post
    1980's shredded??? You are at least 10-15 years to early for that the late 80's early 90's was the time of the FAL!!!

    You are showing you are a youngster.
    https://www.nytimes.com/1989/07/08/u...permanent.html
    July 8, 1989

    The Bush Senior administration yesterday imposed a permanent import ban on 43 types of semiautomatic assault rifles, including the Chinese-made AK47 and Israeli-made Uzi carbine. Stephen E. Higgins, director of the Treasury Department's Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms (ATF), said the government had studied 50 types of imported assault rifles and decided that all but seven were not being used for sport as required by the Gun Control Act of 1968. Shipment of the 50 types of weapons had been suspended since March, pending the government review.
    ...
    The 43 types of weapons barred permanently are: AK47, AK47S, AK74, AKS, AKM, AKMS, 84S, ARM, 84S1, 84S3, HK91, HK93, HK94, G3SA. K1, K2, AR100, M14S, MAS223, SIG 550SP, SIG 551SP, SKS with detachable magazine, 86S, 86S7, 87S. Galil, Type 56, Type 56S, Valmet M76, Valmet M78, M76 counter sniper, FAL, L1A1A, SAR 48. AUG, FNC, Uzi carbine, Algimec AGMI, AR180, Australian Automatic Arms SAR, Beretta AR70, Beretta BM59 and CIS SR88. The seven approved for importation: AK22, AP74, Galil-22, M16-22, Unique F11, Erma EM1.22 and Valmet Hunter.
    https://www.arizonaresponsesystems.c...h-fal-922.html

    US PARTS RULE, FAL(updated 09-20-2016)
    IntroductionThe Republican's 1989 import ban ended the import of certain semiautomatic firearms. BATFE has the authority to create administrative law to implement the Federal ban. In short, BATFE has declared that any firearm that is banned from import, cannot be legally assembled in the United States (except for Government and Law Enforcement Sales) from imported parts. BATFE identified 20 major components, and determined if no more than 10 of these 20 major parts were of foreign manufacture, then the firearm would be considered US made and exempt from the import ban.1989 Import Ban
    18 USC Chapter 44 as amended by Public Law 101-647 (enacted 11-29-90) and
    27 CFR § 178 as amended 06-25-93.
    § 178.39 Assembly of semiautomatic rifles or shotguns.
    (a) No person shall assemble a semiautomatic rifle or any shotgun using more than 10 of the imported parts listed in paragraph (c) of this section if the assembled firearm is prohibited from importation under section 925(d)(3) as not being particularly suitable for or readily adaptable to sporting purposes.

    §925(d)(3) includes FN FAL (L1A1) style semiautomatic rifle with folding stock, military style stock with separate pistol grip, threaded muzzle, flash hider, grenade launcher, bayonet lug, or night sights. Note: FN FAL (L1A1) style semiautomatic rifles having a thumbhole style stock without the above features were approved for importation from 1989 to 1994. In 1994 BATFE changed their interpretation to eliminate the exemption for firearms with thumbhole stocks.

    Imported Parts(c) For purposes of this section, the term "imported parts" are:
    frame, receiver, receiver casting, forging or stamping
    barrel
    barrel extension
    mounting block (trunion)
    muzzle attachment
    bolt
    bolt carrier
    operating rod
    gas piston
    trigger housing
    trigger
    hammer
    sear
    disconnector
    buttstock
    pistol grip
    forearms, handguard
    magazine body
    magazine follower
    magazine floorplate
    FAL Specific PartsThe FAL does not have all of the parts listed. It has no mounting block, barrel extension, operating rod or disconnector. BATFE considers the FAL cocking handle to be an operating rod. The FAL has only the following potentially "imported parts"
    receiver (upper receiver)
    barrel
    muzzle attachment
    bolt
    bolt carrier
    operating rod (cocking handle)
    gas piston
    trigger housing (lower receiver)
    trigger
    hammer
    sear
    buttstock
    pistol grip
    handguard
    magazine body
    magazine follower
    magazine floorplate
    That is 17 parts - 7 of which must be replaced with US made parts for the finished rifle to have "no more than 10" imported parts from the list. Many of the available US parts are of high quality, while some are not - see the links page for manufacturer contact information and the notes page for product reviews.
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  12. #32
    Boolit Master
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    I had a FN FAL here in Canada before the repressive gun laws began in the early 80's never did get to use it on deer before it became prohibited.Portuguese AR10's,Iranian G3's and the FAL were $500 surplus.

  13. #33
    Boolit Bub
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    Quote Originally Posted by Multigunner View Post
    ...BTW despite the accuracy and speed of reloading of the Mauser the Spanish lost...
    General Shafter sent two divisions, 8,412 American troops, against a force of 521 Spanish regulars. The assault took most of the day, and the Americans suffered about five times as many casualties as the Spaniards. If "Machine gun" Parker had not had the foresight to move his detachment of Gatling guns forward the US assault might have been even more costly. As one trooper reported, " The Gatlings just enfiladed the top of those trenches. We’d never have been able to take Kettle Hill if it hadn’t been for Parker’s Gatling guns."

  14. #34
    Boolit Master





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    Bush may have stopped the imports but not what was already here. There were many makers of top ends the big problem was the Williams aluminum one. My early one is still going with over 10K rounds. The latter ones cracked out under 1K. Century had ones, Coonan, Hesse [friends do not let friends build with Hesse]. Days ago Tapco only sold online to individuals till the got owned by corporate buyers. They made to much to quick and took an offer I would not refuse for the company

    Some were better than others. Kits were better than others. I liked to use metric kits but add inch parts for the cocking handle, mag release etc. They are truly one of the best I ever owned or mad. Beat the G3 by 100+ miles IMHO

  15. #35
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by one-eyed fat man View Post
    General Shafter sent two divisions, 8,412 American troops, against a force of 521 Spanish regulars. The assault took most of the day, and the Americans suffered about five times as many casualties as the Spaniards. If "Machine gun" Parker had not had the foresight to move his detachment of Gatling guns forward the US assault might have been even more costly. As one trooper reported, " The Gatlings just enfiladed the top of those trenches. We’d never have been able to take Kettle Hill if it hadn’t been for Parker’s Gatling guns."
    Spanish were dug in like ticks on the high ground with every advantage. No one took positions like that by rifle fire alone. IIRC the Spanish also had a number of Maxim Guns as well as Mausers.
    Would you consider the Winchester .44 Caliber lever action muskets to be better than the 7mm Mauser because the Turks gave the Russians a far worse bloody nose at Savastopol?

  16. #36
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by roverboy View Post
    Nicknamed the "Right Arm of The Free World" its a mean rifle. I've never shot one but, have shot a STG 58. Which is a similar rifle. Shame you don't see more of them.
    Yes, you have shot an FAL......the 58 is only a model variation.
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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check