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Thread: FN-FAL, I'm a hopeless gun nut

  1. #21
    Boolit Bub
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    [QUOTE=Ballistics in Scotland;4381737]
    Quote Originally Posted by one-eyed fat man View Post
    ...the.276 Enfield, ... the 280 British... when America insisted on what would become the 7.62x51 NATO...
    It was during the cartridge wars of the Fifties where trying to overcome the American insistence on their T65 cartridge where the British tried several variations of their original .280 British aka 7 mm MK1Z. They set about meeting the American objections by producing more powerful versions of their cartridge, with the support of Belgium and Canada. The first change was to upload the 43 mm case to 2,550 fps with the 140 grain bullet

    Colonel Renée Studler, head of the US Small Arms Bureau of Ordnance went on record, stating that, any non-American design was "a waste of time" going so far as to bury reports that suggested the .280 was superior in US testing.

    "Despite this setback, Britain, Belgium and Canada combined (in the ‘BBC Committee’) to make one last attempt to develop a new 7 mm round which would be acceptable to NATO. Various lengthened cartridges with such designations as ‘Optimum’, ‘High Velocity’, ‘Compromise’ and ‘Second Optimum’ were developed, mostly with 49 mm cases although the final attempt was simply the 7.62 x 51 necked-down to 7 mm. Muzzle velocities were in the range 2,750-2,800 fps with the 140 grain bullet. However, the Americans still would not be convinced. In any case, the recoil had by this time increased significantly and the balance of the original concept had been lost. At the end of 1953, the BBC Committee reluctantly bowed to American pressure and the 7.62 x 51 was formally adopted as the new NATO cartridge.

    The only result of all of this effort was the 7 x 49 Venzuelan aka 7mm Liviano, which saw service in an FN FAL selective-fire rifle which was sold to Venezuela. This cartridge was adopted by Venzuela around 1952, the only country to do so, and then dropped by them in favor of the 7.61 x 52 around 1955.

    Now your reference to the much earlier high-velocity .276 Enfield, that came about as a result of the Second Boer War. Boer marksmen equipped with the Mauser Model 1895, in 7×57mm caliber gave not inconsiderable grief to Tommy Atkins and his Long Lee and .303 Ball, Cordite, Mark II.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by one-eyed fat man View Post
    Now your reference to the much earlier high-velocity .276 Enfield, that came about as a result of the Second Boer War. Boer marksmen equipped with the Mauser Model 1895, in 7×57mm caliber gave not inconsiderable grief to Tommy Atkins and his Long Lee and .303 Ball, Cordite, Mark II.
    The British have always been quite good at saying, in the words of Kipling:

    "Let us admit it fairly, as a business people should,
    We have had no end of a lesson: it will do us no end of good."


    They weren't, of course, the only business people to find that. The ballistic superiority of the 7x57 over the .303, or the superior accuracy of front locking over rear, weren't the lessons that really mattered, though. Kipling was writing in wartime, at a time when the Boers no longer had fixed position, and the British mounted infantry had made a pretty convincing job of learning to be Boers. In firearms technology, their main deficiencies were in inadequate sights, the lack of a charger guide and the choice between carbine and long rifle lengths. The SMLE remedied all of those, with an excellent adjustable rear sight, and the P14 introduced the extreme novelty of a well protected aperture sight, which has carried over into every subsequent American military rifle.

    Of course most of the world promptly got into the sort of war in which the resistance to jamming of the Lee-Enfield was priceless, and long-range precision usually wasn't. Late in the Lee system's life the rear sight reverted to a flip-over two-range leaf. That's the way lessons go.

  3. #23
    Boolit Bub
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    The Spaniards top Kettle Hill in Cuba made a considerable impression on a young colonel of volunteers a couple of years before the Boer War. Say what you will, but if the incoming rounds are so plentiful as to inhibit one’s forces from executing maneuver, the enemy has achieved a tactical advantage. The evidence in how the experience affected him is easy to find in his later actions as President. In one conversation with the Chief of Ordnance concerning replacing the Krag, Theodore Roosevelt was quoted as saying, "Why not just buy the Mauser?" Revising the way state militias were equipped "The Efficiency in Militia Act of 1903", also known as the Dick Act, establishing the National Board for the Promotion of Rifle Practice and the National Matches are the main examples. His reputation for valuing a good rifle and rifleman did not end there.

    One tradition he started was to write a letter personally congratulating the winner of the President's match.
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  4. #24
    That sounds like a tremendously good idea. The winner of the British Queen's Prize doesn't get a letter from the Queen, but a signed photograph isn't bad.

    https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/...d-1486475.html

    I think the US did in effect buy the Mauser, for the M1903 is basically just a rather good Mauser, and one in which no major design feature can be traced to the 1898 version. Mauser sued and were awarded $250,000 in royalties. It mightn't be coincidence that that sum was the same as was deliberately contracted by Britain with James Paris Lee.

  5. #25
    Boolit Master
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    the buttplumber (mark grahm) does a reliably good job assembling FAL, but he has a bit of a personality that you have to get used o, adn doesn't know how a glock works, or how to weld up a bren re-build. still, you will get a well built rifle, i'm sure. i have a weakness for the inch guns, myself, having built or owned a dozen or so FAL.

  6. #26
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by justashooter View Post
    the buttplumber (mark grahm) does a reliably good job assembling FAL, but he has a bit of a personality that you have to get used o, adn doesn't know how a glock works, or how to weld up a bren re-build. still, you will get a well built rifle, i'm sure. i have a weakness for the inch guns, myself, having built or owned a dozen or so FAL.
    You sir, deserve the "Understatement of the Month" award.
    Liberals don't know they're stupid in the same way a fish does not know it is wet. It is just their natural state of being.

  7. #27
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    GONRA's FAL is a "G series" original semiauto imported in the early 1960's.
    Shot zillions of handloads out of it decades ago. Really phun to shoot!

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ballistics in Scotland View Post

    I think the US did in effect buy the Mauser, for the M1903 is basically just a rather good Mauser, and one in which no major design feature can be traced to the 1898 version. Mauser sued and were awarded $250,000 in royalties. It mightn't be coincidence that that sum was the same as was deliberately contracted by Britain with James Paris Lee.
    The U S Chief of Ordnance arranged with Mausers partners and legal representatives to pay royalties on those features lifted from the Mauser. Front locking lugs were not one of these because Mauser had not invented these.
    Bolt actions with front mounted lugs dated to the 1850's with the Greene rifle.
    Mauser did not sue over any infringement. He made a claim for back pay at the end of WW1 because the government had cut off payments of royalties during hostilities with Germany because he was an enemy national. He received a bit more than the sum you mention.

    Before that the Comptroller of the Treasury had objected to the Chief or Ordnance agreeing to a too generous contract which would have had the USA continuing to pay royalties even after patent protections ran their course.

    BTW despite the accuracy and speed of reloading of the Mauser the Spanish lost. The American army surgeons noted that wounds from the 7mm bullets had little stopping power compared to the .30-40 and that wounded Cuban fighters usually recovered without medical intervention.
    The Spanish were even more impressed by the Winchester Lee Straightpull rifles carried by the USMC.
    Last edited by Multigunner; 06-12-2018 at 09:59 PM.

  9. #29
    Boolit Master
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    I've got an FN 49 that I like quite a bit. I have about 20 empty cases (I wasn't saving them for a long time) and about 600 rounds (potential new cases). I have cast about 150 or so boolits, so I'm gonna shoot some of those rounds to get some cases and reload them!
    Right now, it mangles brass when it is shot with the gas port open. I've got the gp tool, I need to figure out how to set it so it doesn't mangle the brass...

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check