Crimp diameter on a 44 mag?

[Tripplebeards]

I am using devastators and crimping past the crimp groove being the boolit is too long and won't feed if load I load it at the crimp groove. I'm using the lee factory crimp die to crimp. I overcrimped it the other day and ended up with a lead ring or two that ended up in my fired casings from the outcome. I found the sweet spot for my four fifty bushmaster with a crimp of .474" which holds my cast lee 300 in place past the crimp groove and is consistent enough to shoot a hair over MOA at a 100 yards. Can anyone tell me what diameter crimp that have had success with for the 44 mag? I'd like to settle on a crimp diameter size and roll with it instead of just crimping by eye every time so I can get some better consistency

[44MAG#1]

As anyone will tell you without going into the neck tension bruhaha that has been beaten to death. You crimp to such degree as it takes to hold the bullet in place.
There is no secret to it. Once you have enough case tension as you can get without going over board you crimp to the amount it takes to hold the bullet. Plain and simple speaking here.
Please dont take offense to what I am saying. Meaning no harm and no disrespect to you or anyone else on here. Just straight talk.

[Tripplebeards]

No offense taken at all but I would assume over or under crimping on each batch of boolits is going to cause different pressures and different velocities. I'm hoping someone has experimented with this to give me an idea of a crimp diameter to try. I'm positive I can get more consistent/accurate loads by doing this.

[44MAG#1]

No offense taken at all but I would assume over or under crimping on each batch of boolits is going to cause different pressures and different velocities. I'm hoping someone has experimented with this to give me an idea of a crimp diameter to try.

Again I want to stress I am not trying to offend or to be disrepectful to you or anyone else.
You have answered your own question: "I would assume over or under crimping on each batch of boolits is going to cause different pressures and different velocities." Dont vary the crimp. That is a given. If you are using a consistant hardness, consistant diameter why would the crimp vary much at all? Please give that question some thought.

[mdi]

Are you crimping on/in a driving band or around the top shoulder? Also wondering which gun you're reloading for and getting cartridges too long when crimping in the crimp groove. First, I'd recommend getting/using a plain roll crimp die (or better yet a Redding Profile Crimp Die). I got a Lee FCD for my 44 Magnums and tried it. It now resides in a landfill somewhere in So. Oregon. And nope, I ain't a Lee hater but the FCD did more harm than good for my uses. As a start, I'd suggest you copy a factory round's crimp, then if your bullets "walk", you can add a bit more.

I started reloading 44 Magnums in '88 and have never measured a crimp (I have 5, 44 Magnums and I just seat to the crimp groove or cannalure and Profile crimp).

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

I am using devastators and crimping past the crimp groove being the boolit is too long and won't feed if load I load it at the crimp groove. I'm using the lee factory crimp die to crimp. I overcrimped it the other day and ended up with a lead ring or two that ended up in my fired casings from the outcome. I found the sweet spot for my four fifty bushmaster with a crimp of .474" which holds my cast lee 300 in place past the crimp groove and is consistent enough to shoot a hair over MOA at a 100 yards. Can anyone tell me what diameter crimp that have had success with for the 44 mag? I'd like to settle on a crimp diameter size and roll with it instead of just crimping by eye every time so I can get some better consistency

be aware that Lee makes two different Factory Crimp Dies.
see post #4 of this thread:
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...die&highlight=
Now if you do have the Lee Handgun Caliber Collet Style Crimp Die, then be sure to read DougGuy's post (post #3).

My suggestion would be to modify your Lee FCD:
Do as DougGuy suggests with a Collet style,
OR
If you have a carbide style FCD, I would knock out the carbide ring (I have done that, it's easy to do).

So, I realize this doesn't give you an answer to your question in regards to measuring crimp diameter, but these are issues that need to be resolved before you try anything technical like measuring crimp diameter, because crimp diameter can be effected by the carbide ring and/or a collet style die that has too wide of a crimp area.

Now, I will say, I have never measured crimp diameter. I use the Collet style crimp die, and how I get a uniform crimp is I adjust the die as spec'd in the Lee instructions and extend the Ram to the max, and count to 2 and release. That is only for Max loads for large bore revolvers and leverguns. I don't really crimp light loads, I just straighten the case (remove the bell).

[Tripplebeards]

Yes, it's the collet style. I am loading for my 77/44. I've tried some 100 yard groups with it and most measure from 2.5-4". If I was using it for plinking and shooting cans at 25 yards I wouldn't care. I'm sure if I crimped a batch and then made another batch and turned my crimp die in another 1/4-1/2 turn it was cause the same loads groupings open or close up...would it not?


Looks like I might be modifying my crimp die or the next time I crimp with this die I'll measure the squeeze on the crimped neck and test it for accuracy(instead of just crimping till it looks good to the naked eye like I've done in the past) . It Doesn't sound like there is a certain "go to" measurement. I am crimping right to the boolit...past the crimp. I just wanted to make sure I wasn't crimping to much and denting/deforming the boolit and ruining my accuracy.


Im not having any issues with boolit slippage my idea was to have a consistent crimp so I would have consistent pressures. I would assume it's going to tighten my groups instead of every time I load a batch to guess by the naked eye.

[44MAG#1]

Again, I am not trying to offend or be disrespectful to you or anyone else with this reply.
But, one of my questions was if the hardness is consistant and the sizing diameter is consistant why would your crimp be inconsistent
Can you not lock the die into the same position each time you use it? If not, why? Are you using the die for other bullet types that wont allow you to be able to lock the amount it goes into the press? If you are using the same hardness and sizing diameter you should be able to eliminate almost totally the problem by locking the die position.

[fredj338]

Virtually impossible to measure a roll crimp. Just roll crimp into the groove provided, done.

[fredj338]

Again, I am not trying to offend or be disrespectful to you or anyone else with this reply.
But, one of my questions was if the hardness is consistant and the sizing diameter is consistant why would your crimp be inconsistent
Can you not lock the die into the same position each time you use it? If not, why? Are you using the die for other bullet types that wont allow you to be able to lock the amount it goes into the press? If you are using the same hardness and sizing diameter you should be able to eliminate almost totally the problem by locking the die position.

Case length is the variable. Roll crimp needs the same case length to be consistent.

[44MAG#1]

Case length is the variable. Roll crimp needs the same case length to be consistent.

He is using a collet die. Not a rool crimp die.
Again no disrepect or not trying to offend anyone.

[Tripplebeards]

He is using a collet die. Not a rool crimp die.
Again no disrepect or not trying to offend anyone.

I have an rcbs single stage press so I have to remove my die every time I use it. They only way to get it exactly the same would be to weld it in place and trim my brass every time(which I do). Can you tell my my sarcasm,lol. I guess there is no right answer to this question?


What I'm getting at is on every loading session I have to put the die back into the press, adjust it, and crimp. Just like loading my ammo at a an OAL of 1.640" every you would think there would be some consistent rule of thumb instead of screwing the collet die down to my boolit and then giving it another quarter turn to crimp.


So, let's say I loaded a 100 rounds last week. Turned my collete die down a quarter turn for testing. This week I ended up turning my collete die Dow three quarters of a turn to look like what looks like the correct crimp with my naked eye. Are you telling me there is not going to be a pressure and accuracy difference between the two rounds if all else is exactly the same between the two loads?

I'm not affended, glad for the responses.

So 44 mag how do you crimp your loads so they are the exact same crimp/pressure every time. I was on 450 bushmaster.net and had help from a member over there and was told he tried tapper crimps at certain measurements. It caused groups to open and shrink with the same load.

I guess I'll have to make sure when I crimp with the lee I count the same number of turns every time after it touches the boolit and call it done. The issue is I'm crimping past the crimp groove so I'm really making more of a tapper crimp than a roll crimp as I am with my 450BM.

I just want to make sure I don't distort or cut into the boolit like I did during my last loading and was hoping to get a measurable answer.

[44MAG#1]

"I just want to make sure I don't distort or cut into the boolit like I did during my last loading and was hoping to get a measurable answer."

Again I dont mean to offend or to disrespect you or anyone else on this great site with my answer.

But lets say you get an answer from poster #1, #2, #3, #4 etc. How do you each one is using the exact same hardness of bullet, the exact same sizing diameter, using the same thickness of brass and seating to the exact same OAL as you?
With that being said wouldnt it be better for you to determine your own settings by actual experimenting with your own components and firearm rather than rely on someone else that may or may not be using your exact situation with the above varibles I mentioned?
What I would do is find the amount of crimp I wanted and then lock the settings on the die and then you should be able to return to the same crimp setting each time you loaded a batch of ammo. That is until you change one of the above varibles.
That is what I would do.

[Tripplebeards]

Makes sense. To big of a variable since I'm seating further in and the boolit tappers. Ill just have to do a trial and error till I get the right "taper"

[mdi]

How do you plan to modify the collet crimp die? (when one writes about Lee FCDs they should be specific as there ate three kinds; handgun w/sizing ring, collet die for rifles, and now collet dies for handgun cartridges). If you thin the collet from the top, it will lower the crimp, and it's not adjustable.

I have a collet die for my 44 Magnum and it's OK, nothing really special about it and I narrowed the crimp band by grinding on the inside of the collet. Works quite well for me with a narrower band, but so does my Redding Profile Crimp Die...

With that being said wouldnt it be better for you to determine your own settings by actual experimenting with your own components and firearm rather than rely on someone else that may or may not be using your exact situation with the above varibles I mentioned?

Yep, a large part of reloading is about "customizing" your ammo and how you produce it for your needs...

44MAG#1, stop apologizing. If someone is offended by your posts then they have a problem, You're not calling anyone names or stating how stupid they are. Relax and enjoy the Forum...

[Tripplebeards]

...and he helped me realize the only way I was going to figure it out was for myself to experiment. The more I thought about it the devistators tapper past the crimp groove and there is no way to figure out what diameter I'm trying to crimp to. I'm not actually roll crimping since I'm crimping past the crimp groove as a roll crimp would cut into the boolit. I had to shorten my OAL to 1.640" or it won't feed or function in my 77/44 magazine. So I'm basically doing a tapper crimp a 1/8" or so above the crimp/lube groove. I just want to make sure I'm not distorting the boolit. I'm squeezing the brass down to clamp the boolit in place. That's what I thought the collet die was designed to do. I'm just going to start with a light crimp compared to what I've been doing in the past and see if it holds. I would assume a tapper type crimp doesn't take take a lot of squeeze to distort or dent a cast boolit.

[DougGuy]

Tripplebeards, the best way to test your crimp is to measure the COA of a few rounds, load them into the cylinder of a SBH and fire off a few. Remove the unfired rounds and re-measure them. If the COA remains the same, that means the boolit has not moved. If it is longer, there was movement of the boolit in the case. You also must remember that if the alloy is soft enough, you will lose COA from the nose blunting itself against the front of the magazine, which is why this might not work well in a rifle magazine where the rim is not held fast by the cylinder.

Follow the link John in Glencoe posted to find my pictures and thread about modifying the collet style die, you will get a good idea of what needs to be done to tune the die so it works better.

I also think that you could use the Lee C430-310-RF boolit which may give you great results at 100yds from a carbine length barrel. Honestly there is no need for a hollowpoint if an RF made of 50/50+2% is used, they are deadly on game. Here are my RF boolits loaded and crimped with the modded collet die on the left, traditional roll crimp on the right. These would work in your 77/44 but they would have to be seated in the upper crimp groove to fit in the magazine..

[Tripplebeards]

I have tried the 310's in my 77/44 and yes had to seat them short as well. The devistators seem to group better at a 100 yards and I like the idea of a quicker kill with the HP energy transfer. I sit 75 yards off my property line and don't want to loose my deer to the neighbors. Maybe I'll cast up some 50/50 in the 310's and try them again as well.

[DougGuy]

Don't go to 23gr 296/H110 with the 310, and even less with it seated lower! 21.5gr is about max seated in the lower groove, that would need to be dropped as COA decreases from seating to the upper groove.

For the record, my 310 goes 320gr cast in 50/50+2%, checked and lubed.

[Tripplebeards]

Thanks for the reminder. I loaded them at 19-21gr last time around. Any more and I'd crunch powder.

It's been a while since I loaded the devistators...I looked at my old posts and forgot that the case lip folds under the crimp with the lee collet die at 1.640"