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Thread: First post,a bit involved Q

  1. #81
    Boolit Buddy
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    Nope.
    Sry to say the idiots that keeps my pic server decided to go "new and improved",and in doing so changed every URL there was.

  2. #82
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    Trying to upload pics here,to no avail though?

    No matter. Pic server of mine is still down,but have taken plenty of them to share as soon as the server is up and running again.

    Showtime..and in short?
    Small step for man,giant leap for mankind.

    Them shrinksleeve cartridges just simply works,and they work very very well. All those who shoot Chassepot are familiar with "clicks". In this case no such thing.

    Proof of concept? No doubt. Flaws? Yes. One,and well get to that.

    Cartridge has been fireformed over a mandrel i turned on the lathe,as been noted earlier. Major difference there is that this cartridge registers on the bottle neck of the cartridge,not the bullet.
    So.
    A 459/405 Lee HB bullet. As cast. 93 grains of Wasag 3F and then..the kicker held by the 9mm blank rimmed round i use as a primer.

    Per advice i strapped the in this case completely stock Chassepot to a pair of old wheels and hooked a piece of string to the trigger..boom.



    To be able to check into any stress or cracks i opted to dismantle the barrel from the receiver and in doing so... Ive done that before,with my modified rifle,and let me tell you... This is no walk in the park.
    Barrel threads on the "wrong" way and if not previously serviced is on there you wont believe. Heating the receiver cherry red is what it takes AND an approx 1 meter long lever on the wrench.
    Bolting the thing back together again though is easy as pie,just add some copper grease to the threads and go at it.
    Anyways.
    This to be able to check the material involved way better then if the barrel n receiver would have been in one piece.

    Ive previously cut into the receiver and barrel both on my modified rifle and thus know that the gun is certainly made out of steel. Theres no questions there,and as such the dimensions involved are overkill-to say the least.

    Ive fired 22 rounds out of it today,and they have ALL gone "boom" on first attempt. This,to me,proves that the filled cartridge,that registers on the bottleneck,is ample stiff enough to make sure the rear of the cartridge does NOT flex,and thus the blank cartridge/primer does its job. Every time.

    Culprit though is the stock "umbrella",which by any means is needed,and all 22 rounds have gone off in such a manner that the primer pocket of the blank has been completely blown out and the remains of the cartridge has been pressed onto the umbrella. In short,each round ment bringing the Leatherman out to pry the remains off of the umbrella.
    Ergo,i need to go back to the drawing board to figure out some other means of primer,and as of right now shotgun primers comes to mind.

    That said.
    Apart from the primer/blank residing ON the umbrella the rest of what was loaded up evacuated just fine. Nothing remained in the barrel,not for any of the 22 shots fired.
    Soot,as were accustomed to,was down and i presume this from a few facts....

    First up the shrink sleeve cartridge most likely smears to the chamber walls upon firing. About making THAT part of the cartridge "gas tight".
    Second up the "kicker" few grains of smokeless within the blank that acts as a primer most likely helps in that dept too.

    In short this trial has been a massive success. Proof of concept has certainly been achieved and seing that..i just need to figure that part out with the primer setup.

    Happy as pie in short boys.....and more to come

  3. #83
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    Seems making the files way smaller might work?

  4. #84
    Boolit Buddy
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    Right.
    A follow up.
    As i wrote there was rather little soot residue. All i did at the range was pump a few shots of Ballistol down the barrel to neutralize the acids.
    Here at home in turn,tonight,i brought the brushes and what not out.

    Into the shower with the barrel,out with a regular nylon brush for a 12ga and regular dishwasher fluid. Took a mere few strokes,rinse with running water.
    Clean.
    Pushed a few wipes through it that had been merely "wetted" with Balli and that was it.

    In other words my first observations was right and to the point. Less soot then usual,and i presume this is due to the smokeless kicker of the blank cartridge/primer.

    Guys.
    That said,what could we use as a "bottom" for this cartridge that will hold say a 6mm/0,25" shotgun primer steady enough and that will desintegrate and evacuate on boom?
    Some sort of cardboard?

  5. #85
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    Alright.
    So pushing forward.

    First up a few pics of how to MAKE these **** things!

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    So. This is the mandrel ive turned out of aluminium. Cut to length in as much that its shorter than needed,and this of course for a reason.
    In turn its got a mark at 40mm which lends me that all i do is set it in the vice at that mark,and thus..get 40mm between the "bottom" of the cartridge and the bottleneck,on which it registers.
    At this point i spray the mandrel down with a couple of shots of 5-56/WD-40 or similar to ease getting the finished cartridge shell off of there.

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    As you can see the shrink sleeve is somewhat longer than the mandrel. Ive made sure the top of the mandrel is flat and in turn make sure the base of the bullets are too.

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    Uhu. Just pan lube these LEE 459/405s and drop them onto the mandrel and center them. Then out the heatgun comes..

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    As i want the thing uniform and in turn inline i heat the bottom of the shell up first and work around the cartridge as i go. In this manner the shell conforms to the mandrel and bullet both.
    Adjustments are very easy to make as long as the shrink sleeve is a tad more than luke warm...to hot even.

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    Now,it might be just me being anal but all said and done i also secure the bullet to the shrink sleeve with a couple of drops of superglue.

    This done i set it aside,today ive made 50 of them,and let them cool where after i clean them out with a regular gun brush on the zink to get rid of any form of grease which can contaminate the powder.
    That done,just leave them to dry.

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    Right. So i had issues with the primer/blank cartridge setup. Cheap is imperative and simple is imperative. It dawned on me..why not wood? So that there is a piece/disc of pine. Regular dirt cheap broom handle that ive turned to size and in turned drilled a hole into to fit the new primer setup.
    Seing how well the blank cartridge addition of absolute minor amounts of smokeless went...im going to add a few grains to the mix manually this time out.
    The primer is a RWS for shotgun shells and is small enough to evacuate the chamber and barrel,and i expect the pine disc to evaporate to kingdom come..

    Beauty of using wood as sorts of an "anvil",for lack of better description,is that it is very easy to work with. Ie;need be the wooden disc can be turned to whatever is needed for whatever choice of primer one arrives on really.

    Well.
    Weve had a hell of a summer here,to the point where weve been prohibited to shoot like were used to but in the last couple of days weve had at least decent amounts of rain.
    Thus the ban will be lifted come this weekend for the range where im a member so...

    Only one way to find out right?

  6. #86
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    Got me yet another Chassepot. Half decent condition so..leave as is.
    For those of you that just want to make real simple cartridges that goes bang with anything at least reminding of accuracy...

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    Regular jumbo sized straws,as ive touched on before. These made with a primer setup sort of ala the stock thing. Ie;a musket cap glued to a piece of paper installed "inside out" into the rear of the cartridge.
    Bullets in this case is AMs Chassepot ones.

    For those having issues making even these go boom...theres a solution for you too.

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    Entire primer setup replaced with a 9mm rimmed blank revolver cartridge. A sorts of "sabot" keeping the thing in place while filling the cartridge up,kept in place with regular superglue.

    Both kinds work and work very well. These ARE cartridges that will go boom every time you pull the trigger.

    On that note. Always make sure your hammer is free to move as needed. When you pull the trigger on an empty chamber the sound to listen for is a "metallic" dead stop.
    If not,remedy..as the needle needs all the acceleration and power we can hand it.

  7. #87
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    Hm.
    Alright. So the rifle is as up and running as they come. No doubt.
    Having tossed a few trix n ends at it even the trigger came out ok. Fair even.
    Since i had them "jumbo straw" cartridges ready ive basically been at idle as far as the rifle due to..rain rain rain rain..
    Today though,during the afternoon,we all of a sudden had a window so i was off for the range in a hurry.

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    Wine n water.. Ok. First up,ive replaced the hammer spring in this rifle with a fresh one thats an ever so slight bit hotrodded. It sports 1,4mm wire in contrast to the original springs 1,25mm.
    The stocker measured 3kg at 45mm length and the new spring 4,5kg at 45mm..just that free length for the new spring is 4mm shorter and when you compensate for that the difference gets even bigger.. Spring is an absolute drop in.
    Just install the thing and go.
    Me i turn i turned a sleeve that is 10mm long,10mm outer dia and 7mm inner. So..first the threaded nut,then the sleeve..to be followed by the spring.
    The new spring of course makes the hammer ever so slightly harder to work but..it does so in a way more linear and smooth fashion so..it kind of comes out to approx the same thing.
    But...
    The new spring,coupled with a fresh 73mm needle,makes this thing go boom every time. No hesitation or the likes so ever.. Difference in hammer speed you can even SEE.
    In short,seeing that a spring like this is like 4$ just replace and be done with it,youll never look back.

    Now.
    That much for the positive side of things. Whats not is..accuracy. Or more to the point the lack of it.
    Excuse my choice of words here but it IS in my opinion called for cause..piss poor is what comes to mind.

    This is after all a rifle that holds all of the right attributes. 1:22 rifling twist,a groove depth thats ample and so on and so on..
    Accuracy wise though its a **** joke. This with stock,or Accurate mold at least,bullets. Ive shot the thing previously with other 45 cal bullets too,with the same net result.

    So. What gives? Well. Only thing that comes to mind is that as a paper cartridge rifle from the onset we need to get that thing to register one way or another and the ONLY manner i can think of is via the use of a bore rider. Just..not bore rider per what most think of i guess.
    Just a bullet that comes to rest on the rifling,that sports a rear driveband thatll fill out the grooves. You know what im getting at here.

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    This particular rifle,as most Chassepots,prints a tad high. Not only that but a bit to the left too. Approx 25cm (10") high and maybe just short of 10cm to the left.
    So. Kentucky windage,but that aside as i held the same sight picture i should at least have seen something of a group.

    Cartridge in case..jumbo straw,90 grains of 3F,Accurate molds Chassepot bullet and a COAL of 76mm. Ignition via a regular RWS musket cap. No mumbo jumbo filling the cap or whatever. No need with a well functioning needle setup.
    But.
    Thats the print that cartridge and load hands me at 100 meters and..its a friggin joke.

    Next cartridge up was the same deal really just with 75grains of 3F and a 9mm PAK blank as primer.

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    ..which ended up in that. Pathetic.

    Now.
    This had me thinking. So what i did was cast me a small batch of the old 457/500 Govn bullet. The old true n tried.
    Then i had them hit the lathe and cut the body down to 11,05mm until the first band/GG.

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    An issue here is the Chassepot "forcing cone". It tapers from 12mm down to them 11 REAL slow. Slippery slope..hello!
    Well.
    This rendered that them cartridges there didnt protrude as i thought they would and COAL was now all in at 78mm. Then,seeing the vastly longer and heavier bullet,it holds 80 grains of 3F and done deal. Still with the RWS musket caps for ignition.
    I had planned to try these out today last thing but..the needle bent as i fired them PAK cartridges and when i tried to straighten the needle it of course broke.
    No biggie,but..no more shooting for today.

    That got me thinking though why as i got back to the shop i took yet a handful of them 500 grainers (that btw weigh 475 cut back to the first band)and..turned them back even further.
    Still the 11,05mm diameter but out of the 4 bands i cut back two of them. Yeah well...doing so i all of a sudden had myself a 90grain 3F cartridge again and now with a COAL of 85mm. I set that to 84 to hand me a tad of leeway.

    The small yellow rings on there are out of rather soft plastic and are on there to center the thing in the chamber. Ie;it registers on the bullet resting on the rifling up front now and that small plastic ring out rear.

    For those of you that dont shoot a Chasse..**** these things soot! Why that is,no idea..but they do. What many in my opinion fail is to use enough grease to keep the fouling soft enough to keep shooting.
    Another thing that dawned on me today. Just going to add grease,loads of it,at the "umbrella" instead of trying to cramp it into/onto the cartridge.
    That the bullet might need a bit of grease,sure. A BIT. But..the main reason here is for it to react with the blackpowder and i guess that adding it at the umbrella will make this happen way better than trying to make the cartridge hold it,no matter which cartridge really.

    Anyways.
    Ill get back to you with fresh results as soon as i hit the range again. This much tho..let the Accurate mold Chasse bullet be the one to use with the original paper cartridges,for historical reasons if nothing else.
    For plinking ...see above.
    ..and for more serious use in turn,yet to see..
    Last edited by Racing; 04-28-2019 at 10:36 PM.

  8. #88
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    For the Chassepot world to know then. That there is 4 fired. Three of them into one ragged hole,at 100 meters. Flyer is on me,not the gun.
    Yep.
    The solution is a bore rider.
    Period.

    As much as it turns out that the Chasse is capable of very good accuracy,Sir Joseph Whitworth was on the money,now will follow loads of work trying to figure this out.
    Clear is that the stock forcing cone is an issue as it keeps us from introducing a bore rider apart from becoming extreme.
    If it isnt the bullet its the "casing" thatll bottom out somewhere along those insanely long 8mm worth of forcing cone. No doubt.
    In short..the forcing cone should really take on another form,but as that really isnt an option to most..extreme looking cartridges,and bullets for that matter,it is.

    We just scored an original old Thomas Turner mold for his 451 volunteer rifle and as i checked the boolits dropped from that one theyre 32mm OAL vs the 457/500 used 30,6mm.

    So i guess that is a first to check from an empiric point of view.

    Ill be back on the subject,rest assured. But for now suffice it to say that for those of you wanting to transform your Chassepot from a scattergun to the marksman accuracy inherent...bore rider..

    Cartridge in case.
    COAL 80mm
    Bullet,turned down to 11,05mm 457/500 govern. Two of the 4 bands removed. Casing glued to just a tad over 1st band
    90 grains of Wasag 3F
    RWS musket cap.

    To keep the gun clean like every second shot fired i just...

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    ..fabbed that in a hurry from en el-cheapo store. In this manner keeping the actual chamber clean is simple. Thus the cartridges used today were all 80mm COAL and that worked with ease.

  9. #89
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    Day came to dismantle the entire gun. For several reasons,but mainly to freshen various surfaces up. For you Chassepot boys out there,please notice that the barrel is threaded "the wrong way". This will make it bolt tighter and tighter the more you shoot it as the rifling runs left too.

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    As i had the barrel off i came to take a few pics. This much is for sure,the original drawing with set dimensions of the stock chamber is off.

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    As you can see there is a ledge in there. In rather poor shape at that but no matter as the rifle shoots a million bux with these "new" bore riders.
    That said i believe we need to investigate this a little closer. I had issues with soot..and due that i took to polishing them surfaces off with 240 grit and oil on my lathe.
    To be honest though i suspect even better results using finer grade emery so im going to hit it once more,with 800 grit this time out and until happy.

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    Yep. The actual rifle got its fair share too. Please have in mind that this is my "mule". Used to evaluate how to push the envelope of these rifles.
    Attention to detail. Idea here is to establish what can be expected from a Chassepot thats handed what it craves to perform like WE want it to and..id say weve come a fair way now.

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    Granted,this time at a mere 50 meters (had another rifle along..dont ask..) but suffice it to say that that there is three bullets into one hole.
    Handed them a few stickers,walked back up to the firing line and let yet another two rip. Same hole.

    Jumbo straws. Indeed. Bore rider design bullets,to the letter,of 475 grains as it turns out. 80grains of Wasag 3F (true black). I literally smear the bullets and front edge of the cartridge before chambering.
    That said i get to fire like three rounds before i need to wipe. I HAVE to to be able to chamber the next round.
    If this is due soot from the straws (yes,they burn-like hell. Have checked) or merely the blackpowder,no idea.
    One added fact though is that polishing of the chamber certainly helped in that dept. It became way easier to get the residue out of there and thus chamber a fresh one.
    Buuut..even if i get to polish the chamber with 800 grit and oil..therell still be the actual issue of residue. I feel i need to adress that before calling this done.

    Performance wise though i,obviously,have no regrets what so ever.

  10. #90
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    Btw. This is the last take on them bore riders. One drive band cut off at each end,rendering for way more area for the straw to adhere to while still being enough to protrude effectively into the bore the other end of the boolit.

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    This in turn the cartridge.

    Edit; hope for better luck with the pics...
    Last edited by Racing; 05-13-2019 at 05:39 PM.

  11. #91
    Boolit Master

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    No joy on the attachments to post #90.

    You have indeed been busy!

    Filth, it would seem, is simply inherent to these rifles. While it may have something to do with the empty space behind the cartridge providing a "condensation chamber" of sorts, I think it is just simply that on a typical black powder muzzle loader we can't see the crud building up. The flintlock and percussion cap boys all had vent and nipple picks, and the rifle-musket era had "cleaning cartridges" with zinc washers at the base of the bullet to fire periodically and remove the worst of the gak.

    To paraphrase Captain Jack Sparrow "You've got to get yourself a Gras, mate!"
    WWJMBD?

    "I'M MELLLLLLLLLLTING!" - Elphaba

  12. #92
    Boolit Man yulzari's Avatar
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    Yes a Gras would solve all your problems.

  13. #93
    Boolit Buddy
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bigslug View Post
    No joy on the attachments to post #90.

    You have indeed been busy!

    Filth, it would seem, is simply inherent to these rifles. While it may have something to do with the empty space behind the cartridge providing a "condensation chamber" of sorts, I think it is just simply that on a typical black powder muzzle loader we can't see the crud building up. The flintlock and percussion cap boys all had vent and nipple picks, and the rifle-musket era had "cleaning cartridges" with zinc washers at the base of the bullet to fire periodically and remove the worst of the gak.

    To paraphrase Captain Jack Sparrow "You've got to get yourself a Gras, mate!"
    Uhu.
    Still though,they strike me as developing a downright apetite for hardened soot,to the point of silly. Worse than other 45 cal BP rifles ive got,and i of course wonder why.?

    Its to the point where ive smeared grease even on the "umbrella" but..case to case scenario that grease comes out about unharmed still stuck to the umbrella as i open the bolt again. Sometimes..
    Other times..it seems to react with the burn,and indeed the issue is way less all of a sudden. Btw. Yes. I get the rust red color indicating a good burn on the umbrella.

    Overly smearing of the bullet though and foremost part of the cartridge per se seems to help a bit. I at that point DO get the fabled star pattern at the muzzle,but.. Chamber still fouls like crazy,and not only that but some of it turns hard as coal as stated. Like theres such a storm going on in there that some of the blackpowder simply wont get to reach the grease,if you know what i mean.

    Ive got a cartridge modified Monkey tail too for instance and there i wipe the bore as accuracy goes out the window. Never had an issue chambering an actual cartridge though. Yes,of course obturation et al yadda yadda..but still. Got a stock Whitworth too and that thing will keep running as long as you just keep track of the grease...albeit like with the MT accuracy will go sour after a number of shots. Sans,its two shots maximum and then wipe.

    Its not so much the soot in itself as that i cant get it to behave as is "should" in as much that with enough grease added it should turn more into "goo" than hardened soot,for the next cartridge in line to just shove out of way like a shovel.
    As noted,and by design,this issue proves itself mainly at that forcing cone,which of course is where next cartridge up eventually bottoms out seeing the inherent design of the chamber.

    Im not even close to convinced that the problem would alleviate itself as one would modify the chamber/FC. In other words i doubt this being an issue as far as the FC in itself but more so an issue that i cant,from what it seems,get the BP to react with enough of the grease to keep the fouling soft.
    WHY that is,i have no idea as of current. A friggin thunderstorm in there?
    You guys tell me...

    Could it be as simple as that i need to try e different grease compound?

  14. #94
    Boolit Master

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    SPG seems to be the universally recommended black powder lube. Certainly worth investigating - if indeed in my lazy failure to review you haven't been using it all along.

    I find what you're doing to be fascinating, so don't misinterpret the following as an attempt to be discouraging:

    The combination of the drawn brass case and smokeless powder was a leap forward that cannot be overstated. It essentially handed Star Trek warp drive and interstellar navigation technology to Christopher Columbus. Naturally, all of the Ferdinand Magellans that followed discarded their canvas sails and lodestone compasses in favor of the new tech and never looked back.

    The brass case "meteor that wiped out the dinosaurs" hit in the early 1860's. The Dreyse was the last generation of T-Rex to live to adulthood. The Chassepot was its unfortunate child that hatched out of the egg in 1866 while the dust from the impact was blocking out the sun and the long, fatal winter was setting in. As such, the Chassepot's childhood was short, confused, and unpleasant - worthy of being highlighted in a heart-rending UNICEF advertisement.

    My point being, it's a system that went extinct for very good reasons. Working WITHIN that system attempting to find the Nirvana of caseless black powder functionality is going to highlight those reasons. Just remember that in testing various filament materials, Thomas Edison found A LOT of ways NOT to make a light bulb. You may be at this a while.
    WWJMBD?

    "I'M MELLLLLLLLLLTING!" - Elphaba

  15. #95
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    No.
    No i have not. SPG,dunno if we can even get that over here in Viking land.? Sure worth checking out though but suffice it to say that the Chassepot as stated above just doesnt seem to react as other BP rifles ive fooled around with as far as this.

    That advent of soot to that degree is for instance often a result of to low a chamber pressure. Well,the Chassepot isnt an overly heavy rifle but nor would it be fair to dub it lightweight.
    Please keep in mind that the bore riders of mine weigh in at 475 grains,to be compared to the approx 380 grains stocker. Spite that ,recoil doesnt feel excessive in any manner...and this with 80 or 90 grains charge no matter.

    Of course the 90 grainer packs a little more oumph but nothing that is a deal breaker of any kind. In short,with a 475 grain slug and 90 grains of 3F you could fire that thing all day and live to tell about it. At least if youve been around rifles for a while.
    That said im absolutely positive that we experience SOME leakage no matter what. As you state the Chassepot system is by no means perfect and theres reaction time to that rubber obturating and so on.
    On the other hand the chamber turn-S sealed off enough for the bullet to be able to create a backdraft as it leaves the muzzle so..

    FWIW i had the barrel off the receiver again. This to hit the chamber a second time as i felt the job could be done better. 150yrs is 150yrs after all and steel is steel all said and done.
    So a good old fashioned polish of the chamber sure wont hurt. Where i just shade tree did it last time out with 240 n oil i this time opted to again start out at 240 grit and advance to 400 and from there to 800...where i let be.
    Whats more this time out i moved the mandrel around,shod with emery,in such a manner i could actually feel the rifling start as that lathe turned. Something i did not the last time out and thus i believe ive come to clean the forcing cone out way better this time out.

    Indeed as i hit the barrel lighted at both ends the chamber now looks better than decent even,and im absolutely positive this will help as far as keeping soot klinging to the walls of the chamber,and then the forcing cone especially.

    Do i somehow believe itll alleviate the issue? Not by a long shot. Just saying that a good old fashioned polish of the chamber of a Chassepot might very well be a good thing and it sure wont hurt.

    As for Yulzaris comment above one of my fellow members of the club i belong to bought a Chasse of me a while back. He came by the shop today with one of them H&C "brass" kits. One of them that contains brass shells that do NOT obturate(brass is very thick,follows the outline of the chamber but is cylindrical within) and uses a replacement part for the umbrella n obturator that acts as a cartridge "holder"/ejector.
    Funny bit of kit,have to say, and as much as i can understand the rifle owners move here..it simply aint for me. Ill stick to the original concept for now thank you very much.
    Very very interesting to see how them french boys had advanced the issue at hand though.

    Nah. On a general whole im REAL pleased seeing that it seems weve at least cracked the ever eluding problem of accuracy for the Chassepot,and that kit today FWIW..guess what... LOL. Yep. Bore rider bullets...

    However.
    As Whelen once stated,the only interesting guns are precise guns. As the idea of shooting is to actually hit what you are aiming at.
    That said im very humble as far as the task of developing loads as well as bullet designs thatll work to its best with these rifles has just begun. At the same time i have no issues what so ever thinking outside the box,evidently,why i mean it to the letter that im open to suggestions here.

    Thus. I keep the two apart. Accuracy is one thing and that "dirt" problem is another. Accuracy ...weve at least opened the door ever so slightly,which feels REAL good,but the dirt issue...well it in my opinion kind of clouds it all a bit as it keeps us from repeated fire in a more...to be expected kind of manner from an after all military issue rifle. Its age be ****ed.

    It stands to reason that soot and dirt was as present back in the day as it is to us now and it also stands to reason that back in the day,when this rifle was GI,theres no way in hell theyd accept being able to pull a few mere shots before cleaning the thing out.
    In fact,one of the main benefits of the Dreyse as well as the Chassepot was that rate of fire climbed immensly vs the muzzle loader of the day and seeing that..it kind of becomes moot that they had to back down on rate of fire just to be able to chamber a fresh round. Most these days,at least up until now,have therefore taken to the range with two different length cartridges. Normally 73mm and 70mm.
    Ok,but seeing that it is not likely this was the norm cause for a soldier to keep the two apart in the heat of battle? Not friggin likely is it?
    In short?
    Im missing something here. Its that simple and ive kind of stonewalled to a degree. Best idea i can come up with at the moment at least is grease compound because SOMETHING odd is going on in there under load/pressure.

    As for soot and residue due to lack of chamber pressure. Hm.. In such a case scenario at the MOST for the brief nano seconds it takes for the rubber to expand,and due that pressure to rise. Any other take on it..not so much in my book.
    Whats more,peak pressure should be right up there as far as im concerned,at least sooner or later. Otherwise the **** thing wouldnt be of much good in the first place right. That said,has anyone dwelled on the optimum rubber grommet diameter? Me i just use regular grommets used to protect wiring when pushing it through a hole. Turn these to dia and shape on the lathe. Note though that i install these to an aluminium spacer that fits the actual umbrella,and the rubber inner dia in turn fits that spacer. Idea here is to have a "dead stop" for the umbrella and thus the compression of the rubber. Have fired hundreds of rounds with this setup by now and im still on my first obturator. Yes,it expands enough - and then some.

    Ive been debating this cartridge thing with myself a bit.
    For a while there i used shrink sleeve ,and it does certainly work,and what im thinking of is capacity. Cartridges made out of straw,when using a modded 500 grainer,comes to a halt at approx 80 grains of 3F and at that with NO room for "accoutrements" what so ever. Ie;grease cookie,wad or whatever.
    So as i see it it to a degree is... ****ed if you do,****ed if you dont. We NEED the full charge to make the bullet as well as rifle behave and deliver. On the other hand setting this up the manner i do brings that stuff that we most likely could make good use of..no room.
    So a cartridge "2.0" with a main body of them major 14,5mm wouldnt exactly hurt to try at least.

    I tried using approx 25mm worth (1") of straw attached to the bullet and formed a shrink sleeve hull around a matrix with a regular heat gun as per previously. From the outside..sure.
    Inside? Pointless. Point being that the thickness of the shrink is such that the inner diameter of the major hull is so small (approx 13.5mm) that the outer diameter of the straw,that it meets up with,comes in so tight that stuffing powder in there..well,just fugedaboutit.

    On one of our local forums weve even toyed around with the idea of having plastic shells made professionally. That DOES present other angles too to handle though.
    One of being that such a shell would get support from the chamber wall and thus wont collapse in the same manner as the straw setup or original paper cartridge and due that most likely wont get expelled,why we to a degree are back to square one really.

    One of the benefits to the straw idea is that the straw does evacuate. Using straw cartridges from that aspect works as does the stock paper ones. When you open the bolt up after firing...empty. Just inser fresh cartridge.

    Ditto for modifying the chamber. Or more to the point the forcing cone. Im 100% with you on the take that the Chassepot was "the first modern rifle" and the mere proposition/idea that they got it all right n correct from the onset..wet dream. So of course theres going to be drawbacks to the design. Of course there is.
    ..which is kind of the fun too on the other hand right? Trying to "outsmart" the flipsides of the original design without actually touching the hardparts. Getting the rifle to work,as intended. No matter 150yrs to late or not.

    After all the bottom line here is to try and arrive on a cartridge concept that can be used in ANY Chassepot,put together by all..and that on the cheap.
    Straws..superglue..yeah. Having to turn bullets on a lathe..not so much. Why at least i see a mold in the future to cater to that.

    Modifying the chamber,same deal. Thatd be stepping out of bounds as far as design criteria for what were trying to do here. That said though,cutting back the forcing cone,or more to the point opening it up every so slightly,would allow for a deeper set bullet which would render a longer cartridge which would hand us the room we might very well need. Not for powder but for cookies,wads or whatever. As is,if accuracy is the name of the game here,weve got no such luxurys at all.



    All that rambling done then.
    Modest recoil with even 90 grains and a 475 grain bullet.? Overly much soot and residue present. That kind of points to that we lack chamber pressure doesnt it?
    If so,apart from just trying to stuff even MORE powder in there,how could we get to handle that? Is it the umbrella and rubber disc whos reaction time is simply to slow? Could it be worthwhile fabbing that umbrella out of lightweight material? Just for trials,to see if that renders any difference in behavior.? Aluminium will NOT stand up to BP over the long run,but who cares for just trying that idea out for 20 shots or whatever.

    I guess i could try replacing the current Swiss and Wasag with some Triple 7 just for trials too? That stuff certainly burns different.
    Could the answer be a duplex load?
    Not to increase oumph but to make the BP burn more complete? In such a case scenario an ever so slight amount of smokeless. The rifle will take it,remember that ive already tried the rifle with 9mm blank PAK cartridges for primers and the rifle just laughs at that stunt. Rugged enough no doubt.
    5 grains of smokeless in there? Well,i dont know... Where im at though im basically open to suggestions.

    If we could muster some manner of soot control and keep the accuracy we just figured out,well thatd be eating the cake and keep it too...

    But hey. Thats just me!

    What im saying guys is that..if you have a lightbulb coming on here..spill it. Please.

  16. #96
    Boolit Master

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    No lightbulb, but perhaps a realistic goal.

    Some research into how many rounds you typically could go with an American Civil War period caplock rifle-musket before the thing up and quit would make for a worthy comparison. My take has been that yeah, the rifle musket is slower to load a single round; yeah you have to stand up to load it unless you've had a lot of practice; BUT THE **** THING WORKS and the functional rate of fire in the field might well be higher.

    Obturator material as well as diameter are are factors to consider. I played with silicone sheeting which is pretty soft. Worked great with a clean gun but started to compress and bulge on loading as the gun fouled and began to shear off bits of itself against the receiver.
    WWJMBD?

    "I'M MELLLLLLLLLLTING!" - Elphaba

  17. #97
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    Came to read up on Larry Gibsons fantastic post on the old 45-70 trapdoor. His work on duplex loads...well..bees knees it might very well be in our case.

    Going to look further into the idea of a duplex load. That and different grease compound.

  18. #98
    Boolit Man yulzari's Avatar
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    Whilst there is no doubt that the drawn brass case is the ideal, and still the norm today, the Chassepot was far superior to the Dreyse and kept in French service until the Lebel. Albeit as a second line rifle. For the French Navy the Gras was not enough of a step forward for them and they waited until they got a Gras with a magazine with the Kropatschek which then became the smokeless 2 piece stock Lebel.

    My point is that, with well made to specification cartridges, the Chassepot performed well for it's day. Possibly one of the leading military rifles of it's day. With the pace of change in those times that day was short but it worked well. However, none of that applies to your 21st century non Chassepot cartridge of course. A better Chassepot is called a Gras for which cases are easily available. Improved paper case cartridges were offered and trialled post war but the army went for the drawn brass Gras.

    The Chassepot continued in production for three more years after the war and remained the standard French Marine rifle until the Kropatschek M1878 yet still remained on issue until the 1890s. Still with the same paper cartridge. My old Chassepot was a professionally sporterised Chasse version and the seller told me that his grandfather was still buying commercial Chassepot paper cartridges for it in the 1930s for use on deer and wild boar and gun shops then sold obturators and needles.

  19. #99
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    Thx Yulzari,and to part my point.

    Theres GOT to be something i/we are missing here. Fouling must have been just as much an issue 1870 as today and obviously the French had figured a way out around that.

    One major issue here,to me,is that i cant really get the grease to interact with the BP burn. Why that is is the question of the day. I will of course dwell on this to try n figure that out and i hope others will chime in as well as they get to try this type of cartridge out.

    On another note the Chassepot was known to shoot far,just not very accurate. Well,it seems weve figured accurate out. Putting such a cartridge together from paper back in the day would,as far as i can see it,make it real flimsy. Net result of that reasoning is that the forcing cone was arrived on by thought,for whatever reason.
    As weve been over,its not real likely that they got it all right the first time out and the difference vs today is that weve got 150yrs of experience on the matter to draw from.
    Big difference in my book.

    The development of a "21st century era" cartridge for the Chassepot i hope many can benefit from. Even the die hard collectors that just want to be able to shoot their rifle in a non complex way. Plinking away if you wish.
    Ie;the one does not detract from the other and the collectors of the world can STILL fire stock made cartridges all they want,which to an extent is the beauty of this. A modern day equivalent that anyone can put together in a jiffy really.

    The main design goal though has been to develop an acccurate load,and i guess we to an extent have. Of course this can be improved upon,which i certainly hope,as we push forward.
    Last edited by Racing; 05-16-2019 at 05:00 PM.

  20. #100
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    As stated. Not "like new" but very well way better than average. Which i guess can be concluded by how it shoots too.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check