Anyone have a SAA Cattleman in 32-20 (32WCF)?

[bedbugbilly]

I'm looking for some input from anyone who has a SAA Cattleman (Uberti) chambered in 32-20. Long story short, I'm making some changes in some of the handgunsI have - weeding out those I don't use, etc. I've always wanted a 32-20 and after looking in LGS in the area, etc., I haven't run across any after several years of searching.

I was considering the Model P Junior that Taylor has with conversion cylinders - one in 32-20 and the other in 32 H & R. After looking at a post on here as well as other sites, I'ver run across accounts where there have been issues with oversize throats and poor accuracy out of some of them. I'm not knockng all conversion caliber revolvers as i know some work very well - but maybe there is an issue with this particular model?

So . . . I'm now looking at one of the Uberti Standard Cattlemen - pre war with the spring loaded cross retainer for the cylinder pin - hammered in 32-20. I'm thinking a 4 3/4" barrel - from Taylors. I would be ordering it through the LGS that I have special ordered through before.

MY QUESTION IS THIS . . . I've read several "reviews" on the Cattleman where someone who purchased one, had issues with factory ammo - I believe Winchester - in that there was some binding of the cylinder due to the rim thickness on the WIN casing - as well as some issues with some Remington brass - all due to the rim thickness and not enough tolerance between the back of the cylinder and the recoil shield.

I am fully aware that 32-20 can be finicky to load due to the bottleneck design, mouth thickness, etc. I have a batch of new Starline brass as well as a quantity of around 700 or so 1 X fired of mixed headstamp brass that I've accumulated. I'm just wondering if it was the particular revolver that the person who gave the review had issues with as far as clearance - or is it an issue in the Uberti Cattleman chambered in 32-20. If you have one and shoot it, what have your experiences been?

I know some would say find a good 32 S & W as it would be a lot easier to load, etc. but I've always wanted to have a 32-20 handgun and reload. I have all the fixings - molds, brass, dies - even a couple of the old Winchester tong loaders. I know from what I've read that case OAL is important in regards to crimp, etc. I would only be loading for one handgun so any issues as far as using the reloads in two different guns wold be eliminated.

Anyone out there have a 32-20 Cattleman who can chime in and give any + or - on them? I have a Uberti Cattleman in 45 Colt and a Uberti 357 Bisley - both excellent shooters and I've had no problems with either nor with my "51 Uberti Navy.

I'm and "old guy" and life is too short not to chalk things off the bucket list like doing a 32-20. What has always got me fired up about it is that I have my G-Uncle's Belgium Colt copy that is a 32-20 - not in the best of shape but nice to display. He was a representative of International Harvester in the 1890 and traveled the wester states - the Belgium copy went with him - even have the original holster and cartridge belt - looks like a Sears Roebuck purchase.

Thanks for any info - greatly appreciated.

[jdfoxinc]

I too am interested in this gun. My experience with Winchester vs Remington ammo is that my marlin will not extract Winchester brass. No trouble with remington.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

Hi -- I've got two of them, purchased at the same time on an on-line auction. One is a 4 3/4" barrel with the cross pin cylinder pin retainer, and the other is a 5 1/2" black powder frame model with the cylinder retention screw on the front of the frame.

I have never cast for them, as I bought 500 cast bullets from Bad Man Bullets. They shoot well in both revolvers. I've had no problems with case lengths, crimp, etc. I did start with new brass.

The black powder frame model developed a problem shortly after I bought it. It would fire one shot and jam up tight. The problem turned out to be an early Uberti hammer design that had some sort of built in safety that had worn out and was chewing up the internals. The situation was solved by a disassembly, deburring, and installation of a genuine Colt hammer. The other revolver was made a bit later and did not have that problem. They seem to have returned to a regular hammer for awhile, but today, based on my observations of some recently purchased Uberti revolvers, they have returned to a safety hammer, but the design appears to be different. So, that's about all I can say about that, but the hammer design and vintage of production is a consideration.

They are accurate enough for my purposes, which is just plinking. I'd be hard put to tell you just how accurate that is, but at 15 yards they'll kill a 12 oz. beverage can with regularity.

To be very honest with you, I don't think that much of the cartridge. I think that it would be fine for things like rabbits, raccoons, etc., but although I know it's been used for such I'd hesitate to shoot a deer with it. Also, it's just not as satisfying (for me) to shoot as a .45 Colt or .44-40 Win.
Not enough flash, bang, kick -- so I changed my mind about buying a matching rifle, whereas I have them for the .45 Colt and 44 WCF.

I suppose that if I were a practical person (not very, when it comes to guns!) I'd get rid of them. But I am a great fan of Uberti and have about a dozen of their revolvers, and just admire this pair for the overall craftsmanship and finish.

I am also an "old guy" and you're correct about life getting too short not to indulge yourself if you're able to do it. I think your decision to buy from Taylor's or Cimarron is the only way to go. Most of my recent purchases have come from those two sources, and I've had no complaints at all.
I'm not really giving you a "thumbs up" or "thumbs down", just telling you how I see it.

Attachment 220850

[Harry O]

I don't have that particular model in 32-20. I did have one of the convertible 32-20/32Mag P-Model Jr's. As you note, accuracy was not very good. Sights (fixed) were hard to see, which might have been part of my problem. I got rid of it. I do have several Uberti SAA Cattlemans in other calibers and they were all better than the P-Model Jr.

Your comment about the thickness of the base sometime causing problems is true with all 32-20's. In my experience, the older the case, the thicker the base and the more likely problems. If you have fairly new Starline, you should not have a problem. If you do, it is not usually difficult to weed out the bad ones.

There are a few things to do if you reload 32-20's. When you do, it will be as accurate as the .32 S&W Long. First, trim ALL of them to the length of the shortest case. Set up your dies for that length.

I took about 1/32" off the bottom of my sizing die. This is primarily needed if you shoot the cases in several different guns. The location of the transition is different in different guns. That sometimes makes chambering difficult in some guns. If you are shooting in one gun, you may not have a problem. Don't do this unless you need to.

The next thing is get a 32-20 Lee factory crimp die. Adjust the bullet seating die to just turn the flare back straight, without crimping it. Use the Lee die to crimp it in an additional step. A little more work, but it is worth it. Have fun with the 32-20. It has to been fun for me for the last 55-60 years.

[bedbugbilly]

Der Gebirgsjager - thanks - that is a big help! I appreciate your response. I't's a big help!

I must admit that I also like my 45 Colt - probably for many reasons - historic cartridge and my Uberit 7 1/2" Cattleman shoots far better than I. I have a number of 38s and a 357 - I load all of what will go in them - 38 Colt Short & Long, Special and 357. Also do 9mm and .380 but am more of a SAA guy - although I like my vintage Smiths and my old Colt Army Special in 38 special - made in 1910.

I know what you are saying on the 32-20 as far as a cartridge for bigger things but the only thing I'll be doing is killing pop cans and punching paper. I don't hunt anymore so I know I won't be buying a lever gun in the 32-20. I have a couple of 30-30s that whet my appetite along with an old GEW98 8mm - I knew the vet that brought it back from France in 1919.

Although I have a bunch of 1 X fired 32-20 brass, I will take the time to sort it by headstamp and check the rim thickness on it. I also have a box of 500 new Starline and if that works, I may just stick with that.

Your set of Ubertis look very nice and I don't blame you for not wanting to let them go. I'e been very impressed with the ones I have and I've been shooting a '51 Uberti Navy for many years and it is a great C & B.

i'm guessing that the 32-20 interests me so much because I have my G-uncle's. It's a nice historic cartridge and another plus will be the cost of the loading components - not a whole lot of powder and I can cast several different boolit designs and weights to use in it. If I get lazy, I can always buy some already cast up form a vendor on here.

I appreciate your input and will hopefully be going to the LGS after the holiday to get one ordered. The 32-20 and a Uberti '51 Navy Richards & Mason conversion in 38 Special are both on my bucket list. I'm thinning some things out with no regrets and will use the proceeds to fund them.

Many thanks again - greatly appreciate your reply!

Jim

[Dan Cash]

Harry O is spot on regarding the .32-20 and I have learned to do what he is doing the hard way, trial and error) except that I don't use the Lee crimp die. I use .32-20 in 3 weapons, a Colt Army Special, Cimarron Uberti and a Marlin 04. The Uberti has the tightest chamber of the three and things have to be right or ammo won't chamber. I have trimmed all cases a couple thousandths shorter than recommended length and though the Colt does well with .313-,314 bullets, the Uberty demands .311 so all three guns get the same size. My Uberti is smoother than a Colt but the trigger has a little bit of creep.

I have a bunch of different calibers but find that I use the .32-20 the most. On the ranch, it goes with me every day and freequently to town. I do take a biger gun when going to biger cities.

Accuracy is minute of dead coyote at a bit over 100 yards with a clean kill. The cartridge loaded with a soft 105 grain Accurate bullet over 9.5 grains of 2400 makes 9 inch gong hits at 200 yards with the rifle and is good for pop cans and prairie dogs at 50 yards. At close range, it makes a terrible wound in porcupines.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

Mr. Billy, I'm glad to be of help. Thinking back on it, I wanted a .32-20 for years. My interest was originally piqued by Skeeter Skelton, who wrote about shooting them as a youth. Then, these two just happened to come my way. Just this past winter I bought one of the 1851 C&B conversions to .38 Special. Beautiful gun, but haven't fired it yet as summer is just arriving here in the mountains. Maybe I'll give a report later. Like all Uberti revolvers, it's well made and finished. I don't think you'll be sorry with that choice.

Attachment 220865
Click to enlarge.

I'm thinking mostly wadcutters --no +P+. Maybe some RNFP. The latest issue of Shooting Times (about a 20 minute read for the entire issue) says that an 1860 conversion was at the Battle of Adobe Walls. Great piece of shootable history.

[9.3X62AL]

My only Uberti Cattleman experience involves revolvers in 44/40 WCF and 45 Colt. In a word, flawless. I will buy others. The "safety" in my late 2012 44/40 is the base pin--push it inward about 3/16", and it catches the hammer before it strikes the cartridge's primer. I ignore that contraption-esque afterthought and use the SAA like I learned at age 14--5 beans in the wheel--load one, skip a chamber, load four, fully cock the hammer, and lower it carefully on the empty chamber--which is visible as it turns into place.

[bedbugbilly]

9.3X62AL - I had to smile when i read your description of the "safety cylinder pin" on the Uberti. When I got my 7 1/2" Uberti Cattleman in 45 Colt, I loaded up some 454-190 over 6 gr of RedDot. I had a 50 yard range in back the house we moved form last year. I took it out and the first pull of the trigger, all I got was "click". Now .. . we have to remember .. . we're men and don't read instruction manuals. I've been shooting SA for over 50 years and the first one I ever shot was an original '51 Navy and the guy wo taught me was an 80 + year old gunsmith at the time. I was taught like you - five n the cylinder and the hammer on an empty one. Well . . . I had to actually READ the manual and once I saw the part about the safety cylinder pin - an easy fix. It remains in the non-safety position. At some point, I'll probably shorten the cylinder pin or buy and extra one and do it. When I got my Uberti 357 Bisley, I made sure the cylinder pin was in the non-safety position. What really surprised me with my 45 was the accuracy I got with it. At 25 yards, it did well - no thanks to me as my eye sight is not what it used to be. The first shot at 50 yards I got a bullseye - totally amazed me! "Luck" for sure - but it still grouped well at 50 yards. I'm sure the 32-20 will seem like a "cat sneeze" compared to the 45 Colt but I'm thinking it will be a fun plinking gun and still big enough to handle the small critters we have here.

Der - you're a man after my own heart! That's a nice looking R & M conversion. I'm not one to load to max as for what and the way i shoot, it's not a necessity. My thoughts not he '51 conversion was that I would probably load the 358-242 120is gr RN in Colt Long brass for it. I'm thinking that for general plinking, smokeless will be a handy load and when I want to smell the sulphur, a nice compressed load of 3F in the Colt Long will satisfy the craving. I'll be interested to hear a report on how you like yours when you get to shoot it!

EDIT: I just noticed when I blew your photo up that the the front and rear sights are on the barrel - is your's a 72/73 open top? Is it on a Navy or Army size frame? I'm looking at the "51 R & M conversion primarily because I've always shot '51 Navies. A hard decision because Uberti offers a variety of the conversions and open tops and all are eye catchers. I have a Pietta Remingtion NM "Navy" C & B that I shoot sometimes and a conversion on that model in 38 is also an interesting "tease".

Thanks all!

Jim

[9.3X62AL]

BBB--I am just glad that Uberti didn't install a cross-bolt Rem 870/Marlin levergun safety on their SAA repros. I can ignore things of that sort, but Hillary Holes in S&W wheelguns and like/similar superfluous speed bumps are a mild irritation.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

Yes Sir, Mr. Billy, you are absolutely correct. The Navy conversion is stamped 1871 on the left side near the barrel wedge.

Every now and then over the past many years I idly wondered how Colt got from the 1851 Navy and 1860 Army to the 1873 Single Action Army. The SSA is such a classic, really perfection in a single action, and I thought that there must have been some real genius involved in the progression.

But there always seemed to be another more modern handgun that called louder, so I just got around to satisfying my curiosity in the last couple of years. If I've got it down right now, the earliest conversion seems to have been the Thuer version that cut off the rear of the cylinder and got rid of the percussion nipples and opened it up to receive cartridges, and used an adapter plate/ring, which fastened to the inside rear of the frame to fill the space and provide a loading gate, but left all of the loading lever mechanism hanging on the front which was no longer of any use. Clint uses one in one of his movies, and for some reason they are priced much higher than I want to spend--because of the movie notoriety I suppose. Then, along came Mr. Richards who removed the unnecessary loading mechanism from the barrel and added an ejector rod, but the housing for the loading lever remained. Next, Mr. Mason redesigned the entire barrel not to include any vestige of the loading mechanism and redesigned the ejector rod. Apparently they continued to use the adapter plate/ring system for awhile until they ran out of the part, and then got rid of it and used full length cylinders, a replica of which is what I possess, the '71. The rear sight moved out to the barrel, certainly an improvement. That is no doubt a very simplified version. So much was accomplished in the design changes in just a few short years, and so many "one or two of" variations.

So, not having a couple of million dollars with which to build a collection of originals, like is shown in Mr. Serven's book, "Colt Firearms (From 1836)" I've done the best I can by acquiring Uberti replicas to study and understand the progression of thought and design. I guess I should have gotten a Patterson and the various Dragoon models, but my interest really started with the 1851 Navy and goes through the 1873. It continues to be a great late-in-life learning experience. After I acquired an 1851 Navy, 1860 Army, 1862 Navy, I got into the '71-'72 conversion models. Then I jumped back and got my hands down favorite, a 5 1/2" Richards Mason .45 Colt that still retains the adapter plate/ring system. I almost (that's almost) like it better than an 1873. Except that the rear sight is still on the hammer. You might want to take a look at these. Education is a continuing process, and I didn't realize that they were being replicated until I had skipped past to the '71-'72 models. When you acquire yours I hope it gives you as much pleasure and satisfaction as I'm enjoying. Wonderful revolvers that exhibit the finest craftsmanship.
Attachment 220890

[Bent Ramrod]

I have a 7-1/2” Cattleman (from Cimarron) in .32-20. Blackpowder frame, bullseye ejector, two-groove “safety” axle pin. I had to deepen the working groove on the axle to securely lock it with the little lock screw; it would start to back out after thirty shots or so. Ten seconds’ work on a lathe (or a bit of cut-and-try with an electric drill and a chainsaw file) fixes the problem for good.

I’ve noticed that this particular problem isn’t rare on SAAs in general. An acquaintance bought a brand new stainless Ruger and the cross pin, even with a good spring, wouldn’t hold the axle because the groove wasn’t deep enough. The same fix worked on it.

The trigger on mine could be a teensy bit lighter but I do fine as-is. I’m spoiled by the one on my Flat-Top Target Model, which I only wish was offered in .32-20. It would probably sell like nuclear reactors, but I’d get one.

Mine takes 0.314” boolits, and shoots like a rifle on those days when I’m feeling particularly “actinic”. Most of my brass is ancient Peters, UMC, Western and so forth, picked up and “horded” back when new stuff was unavailable. I’ve never noticed thick rims or draggy cylinder action, but do notice the crimp problem, particularly in the latter days before Big Ammo dropped the manufacture entirely. A box of 50 would have several different lengths, and all of them would be shorter than the SAAMI standard.

I prefer Cimarron to the other importers. The finish is generally better, you can order a bunch of custom finishes if you like, and they use the old style serif lettering rather than the block capitals of this our modern age. Also, I think in the main, the quality control is very good.

As a hunting cartridge, the .32-20 is like the .30 Carbine, neither fish nor fowl; too much for most small game and not enough for deer size animals. But for just plain messing around, it’s much more economical than the larger bores and much more spectacular on plinking targets than a .22.

I may be prejudiced, though. At last count I had three revolvers and as many rifles in the caliber. I wrote a panegyric to the cartridge when the “Your Favorite Cartridge” subforum started, which was greeted, IIRC, with deafening silence. Glad to see that some others are interested in it.

[Harry O]

A couple of things said above have reminded me of some other things about the Uberti. The Safety center pin can be a problem. The ones I have in larger calibers would "jump" forward with heavy loads and tie up the gun. I replaced them with Belt Mountain center pins and have not had a problem since. I question if this might happen in the 32-20 since it has lesser recoil.

I also replaced the mainsprings with lesser strength mainsprings, just for ease of shooting. No problems with ignition. Later on, I had one of the bolt/trigger return springs break, so I replaced all of them with wire springs. Again, no problems since then. These changes are not difficult nor very expensive and they make for a much nicer gun.

[9.3X62AL]

Bent Ramrod--

32/20 WCF firearms appear in some number at my house. A 1906-made Colt Bisley x 4-3/4" (inherited), a 1920-made Army Special x 5", a pre-war S&W M&P x 5", and a 2004 Marlin 94 CCL with 20" octagon barrel. If there is a better coyote-hunting caliber available, I haven't found it. The high-velocity 32/20 in the Marlin runs Lyman #311316 at 1750-1800 FPS, which is close to 30 U.S. Carbine performance--but is more accurate than any 30 Carbine of my acquaintance. Those flat-nose castings thump the daylights out of whatever they connect with; they do a better job than the RNSP bullets meant for the 30 Carbines. I am not sure those SPs expand--they don't do jackrabbits much good, but the flatnose castings seem more decisive--far fewer 2nd shots needed.

I use case makes as my load identifiers--WW and RP cases get the low-order revolver loadings, Starline brass gets the full-value rifle loads.

[Bent Ramrod]

Al,

For sure, once you’ve discovered the caliber, it’s hard to stop at one gun. And I’m sure in the right hands, it would handle anything the woods loafer or ranch hand would encounter. My own Savage 23C, I was told, was the former property of “an old poacher,” and it sure looks the part. No finish, no rust and a perfect bore.

It seems to prefer the Ideal 311419; the others are pretty omnivorous. I shoot mostly that Group Buy 115-gr Keith-style in the revolvers, either a mild charge of SR-4756 or 9 gr 2400 for the heavier SAA cylinders.

The cartridge seems to be the smallest one open to a lot of experimentation. Lots of boolit designs available, and lots of applicable powders, both for rifle and pistol.

[bedbugbilly]

Well . . . . first off, I really appreciate the responses and a lot of good information to file away! I contacted the LGS that I usually purchase through . . . a thorough search of the dealers (Taylor & Cimarron) showed that there were not 4 3/4" Cattleman in 32-20 to be had. One is expecting them in at some point but many are already spoken for and they have no idea of when they'll get them - the other expects three in but two are sold and the third one is up for grabs - the guy at the LGS said it would be at least 90 days, maybe more. By then, we'll be ready to take off for Arizona so I said I would take a "pass" and will see what I can locate another time. My "tote" of 32-20 reloading stuff will go back under the bench.

That said, I went to the next one on my "wish list" that I"ve wanted for quite a while - a Uberti 1851 Richards & Mason Conversion - 38 special with a 7 1/2" barrel. It will be a nice "big sister" to my Uberti '51 Navy C & B. It should be in in about a week and a half and I'll pick it up then. I'm planning on 38 Colt Shor and 38 Colt long for the conversion - both BP and milder smokeless loads as it will be a "plinker". Looking forward to playing with it and working up loads for it.

So the adventure continues and at some point, I'll locate a 32-20. In retrospect, I know that the 32-20 isn
t desired by a lot of folks, but it sure seems like the importers would order a larger quantity as they seem to go before they are even delivered. But, there may be reasons for not stocking up on them that I'm not aware of.

Thanks to all for the info - enjoyed reading it and learned a lot!

Jim