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Thread: Patched balls in a fast twist barrel?

  1. #1
    Boolit Master Canuck Bob's Avatar
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    Patched balls in a fast twist barrel?

    Tried a search but came up empty. I'm negotiating on an older .45 Euroarms Investarm Hawken. The twist rate remains a mystery. I'm planning this rifle for range work and maybe some light duty plinking. I don't care about hunting power and higher velocities. I hope the rifle to be 48" twist but there are references to quicker twists available in the thirty range, not verified.

    For the sake of discussion how do patched balls perform in the faster twist Lyman rifles and the number of Investarm's branded guns? The goal is powder thrifty 50 yard target combo loads for the whole family and as a loaner range gun for buddies.

    Edit: I'm wondering if it is like the Lyman GPR Hunter with a 32 twist and how that would impact patched ball accuracy at 50 to 100 yards.

    Here is a link that I found here which is encouraging.

    http://whitemuzzleloading.com/round-...-twist-rifles/
    Last edited by Canuck Bob; 05-22-2018 at 12:55 PM.

  2. #2
    Boolit Grand Master

    Wayne Smith's Avatar
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    Interesting read. I can't intlligently comment on it, but sounds like it could be fun to try.
    Wayne the Shrink

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  3. #3
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    I don't have any experience with 45 cal. round balls, but I have a 54 cal Lyman Deerstalker and it shoots .530 round balls quite well. It is a 1/48 twist. Hope this helps.

  4. #4
    Boolit Master scattershot's Avatar
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    1:48 will work with round balls, don’t know about faster twist.
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  5. #5
    Boolit Master
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    All TCs were 1:48 and shot RB fairly well. A 1:30s would be slightly better.
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  6. #6
    Boolit Master Canuck Bob's Avatar
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    The load combo would seem a fussier work up but not a waste of time. My Google mojo improved and this topic is well covered after all. Please respond with any real world experiences. For a .45 50-60 gr max loads are quoted a lot and the advice in the link is repeated. The rifle mentioned above might be mine if we can meet on a price.

    Edit: I should add that I own a .54 Deerstalker and have no concerns about a 48 twist barrel.
    Last edited by Canuck Bob; 05-22-2018 at 01:35 PM.

  7. #7
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by Canuck Bob View Post
    The load combo would seem a fussier work up but not a waste of time. My Google mojo improved and this topic is well covered after all. Please respond with any real world experiences. For a .45 50-60 gr max loads are quoted a lot and the advice in the link is repeated. The rifle mentioned above might be mine if we can meet on a price.
    Bob
    I have mostly shot 66 twist ball guns and for a 45 cal I would use a 44/40 shell full of FFF as my low load (45grains) and stop at about 70 grains for top load - as the article says they will pretty much shoot any load -- at the present I am shooting a 48 twist belgian barrel flintlock - its a bit more finickity - top load is a 303 shell full and if I go much over that accuracy disappears fast - have had two of these 48 twist barrels (the other was a 50cal) and they both behaved similarly - i think the secret to shooting ball in a fasttwist would be keeping the charge down .

  8. #8
    Boolit Master Canuck Bob's Avatar
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    The owner got back to me and had trouble measuring the twist but is sure it makes about 1 revolution in the 28" barrel. I'm now considering this rifle a 32" twist Investarm percussion Hawken.

  9. #9
    Boolit Grand Master

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    Ball will work fine as long as you don't over charge. About 30-45 grains of FFg in a 50 will be about right. You will need to experiment a little and see what works best but for 25-50 yard target work or small game the light loads will work just fine. Same as using round balls in a 30 30 for cat sneeze loads.

  10. #10
    Boolit Grand Master Outpost75's Avatar
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    I shoot patched .495 round balls in a .50 cal. Green Mountain LRH barrel with 1:28" twist and they shoot very well with lighter charges from 40-60 grs. of 3Fg. I tried heavier charges up to 80 grs. of 2Fg and groups opened up. You want a tight fitting ball and patch combination which requires loading with a hammer and short starter to shoot well in the fast twist. Easy-loading combinations cut patches and shoot wild.
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  11. #11
    Boolit Master Maven's Avatar
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    Canuck Bob, Everyone, it seems, is on the same page with respect to powder charges and patched RB's in fast twist bbls. In short, as the White ML document indicates, accuracy declines when powder charges increase beyond a given threshold. RB diameter, patch thickness, and bbl. quality (uniformity, smoothness) also affect accuracy. I've attached a PDF image of a target fired from a 26" Green Mountain bbl'ed., 1:28 twist Knight Bighorn with a receiver sight. Although those 50 yd. groups were good, they opened up appreciably when only 5 more grains of powder (FFg) were added, i.e., 65gr. FFg.

    The particulars were: 60gr. Diamondback FFg + .490" RCBS RB (.492" in fact) + .018" (compressed) pillow ticking + 1 Ballistol : 6 water patch lube. Btw, the rifle seems to shoot more accurately with FFg than FFFg.
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  12. #12
    Boolit Master Canuck Bob's Avatar
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    I've sent off a bid for the rifle and am now comfortable I can tune the load to meet the mission. Thanks for the input. One nice aspect is the ability to step up to a cast conical for hunting if I sell it. I also learned a bunch about muzzleloading. It seems depth of rifling is more important than I realized for a muzzleloader.

    It comes with some Hornady balls and I got everything else to shoot! Retirement due to health kinda sucks in many ways but not for available range time.

  13. #13
    Boolit Grand Master Outpost75's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maven View Post
    Canuck Bob, Everyone, it seems, is on the same page with respect to powder charges and patched RB's in fast twist bbls. In short, as the White ML document indicates, accuracy declines when powder charges increase beyond a given threshold. RB diameter, patch thickness, and bbl. quality (uniformity, smoothness) also affect accuracy. I've attached a PDF image of a target fired from a 26" Green Mountain bbl'ed., 1:28 twist Knight Bighorn with a receiver sight. Although those 50 yd. groups were good, they opened up appreciably when only 5 more grains of powder (FFg) were added, i.e., 65gr. FFg.

    The particulars were: 60gr. Diamondback FFg + .490" RCBS RB (.492" in fact) + .018" (compressed) pillow ticking + 1 Ballistol : 6 water patch lube. Btw, the rifle seems to shoot more accurately with FFg than FFFg.
    In my GM LRH barrel I am not shooting pure lead, but 1:40 tin-lead and the gun has a short, 22" carbine-length barrel, so I used 3Fg rather than 2Fg for a cleaner burn and higher velocity. I lubed my patches with SPG and at 60 grains got 1400 fps and 2" five-shot groups at 50 yards.
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  14. #14
    Boolit Master
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    With my chunk gun, 50 caliber and 1 in 48 twist the round balls shoot very well out to 200 yards. Groups are the same for 50, 100 and 200 yards of course I have a Unertl 12 power scope on it. I use 80 grains of Goex FFG and if I shoot mini's then I bump the load up to 90 grains as they are a tad heavier.
    John

  15. #15
    Boolit Grand Master Good Cheer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Outpost75 View Post
    In my GM LRH barrel I am not shooting pure lead, but 1:40 tin-lead and the gun has a short, 22" carbine-length barrel, so I used 3Fg rather than 2Fg for a cleaner burn and higher velocity. I lubed my patches with SPG and at 60 grains got 1400 fps and 2" five-shot groups at 50 yards.
    Got one of the same barrels from the mid '90's. I called it the SRH for grins.
    Been wanting to try the old Lee trash can minie loaded backwards but haven't figured out what to stick in the nose of the bullet.

  16. #16
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by Good Cheer View Post
    Got one of the same barrels from the mid '90's. I called it the SRH for grins.
    Been wanting to try the old Lee trash can minie loaded backwards but haven't figured out what to stick in the nose of the bullet.
    22case full of black might work?? backwards of course...............

  17. #17
    Boolit Master
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    I have experimented a little with my Lyman GPH and round ball. It has been more difficult to find a good load than slower twist barrels I have shot. My old Kentucky .45 shot well with almost any load put down the barrel. The Lyman has been more finicky.

    It definitely did not like 80gn loads. At 50gn groups got a bit smaller. 40 was better (4" at 100yd). I tried 30gn but it was inconsistent (may have been me). One group would be 2" and the next 5". I have not messed with the loads enough to find a consistent load. I think the potential is there, just take some time to find the right load.

    Sent from my SM-P580 using Tapatalk

  18. #18
    Boolit Master Canuck Bob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oldracer View Post
    With my chunk gun, 50 caliber and 1 in 48 twist the round balls shoot very well out to 200 yards. Groups are the same for 50, 100 and 200 yards of course I have a Unertl 12 power scope on it. I use 80 grains of Goex FFG and if I shoot mini's then I bump the load up to 90 grains as they are a tad heavier.
    John
    I'm a greenhorn, what is a chunk gun?

  19. #19
    Boolit Buddy duckey's Avatar
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    I have a TC Grey Hawk with 1:48" twist. It shoots Maxiballs and RB's with great accuracy to 50 yards and will reach out to 100, however most of my target shooting is 50 yards with either Pyrodex and most recently real back 3F at 90 grains.

  20. #20
    Boolit Master Canuck Bob's Avatar
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    The rifle is on its way. The twist rate verification will be the first order of business. Outpost I don't get the ratio of 1:40 as an alloy percentage. I also intend to add some tin from a stash of tin solder for the balls. The added castability is worth it and the tin is already paid for. Would 1% be an effective blend?

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check