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Thread: 357 carbine vs pistol velocities(reduced charges)

  1. #1
    Boolit Mold
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    357 carbine vs pistol velocities(reduced charges)

    Hi Folk's, nice forum. Just dropped in to see if any lever experts can help. My question is wondering what velocity increase might be going from 10" pistol(hodgons test data) and a 24" barrel 357 carbine(rossi 92) with 158grain cast bullets. The proviso is reduced low pressure charges. A 400fps+ increase is normal for heavy powder loads but I am doubting you would get the same for small powder charges as below...200fps?

    Hodgons 10" cast bullet data.

    Titegroup 4.5grains 1,028fps 5.0 for 1108fps
    700-X 3.4grains 867fps 4.9 for 1137fps.

    Thanks for any guesses?

  2. #2
    Boolit Master
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    Hi Stef,

    Welcome to the forum.

    Hodgdon lists data for a 10" pistol-length barrel and an 18.5" carbine length barrel. Your Titegroup excerpt matches up to the 158 gr LWSC bullet data, which are also listed in the "Rifle" section with the same loads. The velocities are 1157 and 1220 fps, respectively.

    The 700-X loads are not duplicated in the rifle section, but you can extrapolate.

  3. #3
    Boolit Master
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    When you use light powder charges in a small case. That small charge is completely consumed in a RIFLE bbl. So sometimes you get slower velocities out of a long barreled pistol caliber rifle.
    I actually get lower velocity out of a 24" bbl rifle than a 19" carbine or 5.5" bbl revolver. That 5grs of TITEGROUP in a .44Mag in consumed in a 24" rifle before the bullet exits the bbl. Use a hotter load such as a full charge of W296 or 4227 in a rifle to reach the rifles full potential. Save the lighter charges for revolvers.
    Happiness is a Warm GUN & more ammo to shoot in it.

  4. #4
    Boolit Master Outpost75's Avatar
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    I use ordinary standard pressure .38 Special loads in rifles to reduce noise without having to resort to a suppressor so that I can shoot small game and varmints on my property without upsetting the neighbors. Ordinary .38 Special target wadcutter loads get about 870-900 fps from a 25" rifle barrel. Standard pressure 158-grain LRN .38 Special gets about 1000-1080 fps.

    In a light, open-sighted rifle you can expect groups around 2" to 2-1/2" for ten shots at 50 yards.

    Click image for larger version. 

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  5. #5
    Boolit Master
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    That is a very nice looking rifle! Although your photo title indicates Carlini, it sure looks like a Purdey side lever rifle to me.

  6. #6
    Boolit Master Outpost75's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tatume View Post
    That is a very nice looking rifle! Although your photo title indicates Carlini, it sure looks like a Purdey side lever rifle to me.
    Carlini in the photo title is the Italian gunsmith in Turin who did the restoration.

    Here is the Cogswell & Harrison London barrel marking and a couple more pics:

    Click image for larger version. 

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  7. #7
    Boolit Master
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    You must get an awful lot of enjoyment out of that rifle.

  8. #8
    Boolit Master Outpost75's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tatume View Post
    You must get an awful lot of enjoyment out of that rifle.
    Yes, and its .32 S&W Long cousin also:

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  9. #9
    Boolit Master
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    Gulp!

  10. #10
    Boolit Master Outpost75's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tatume View Post
    Gulp!
    Less money than a Harley, a bass boat, an RV or wife!
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  11. #11
    Boolit Master


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    With slow powders such as 2400,4227,296, Blue Dot, etc. a rifle will give you 350-400 fps over a handgun. Fast powders such as Bullseye, Red Dot 700x ,Unique will add approx 200 fps to handgun velocities in the .38/.357.
    "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience."
    - C. S. Lewis

  12. #12
    Boolit Bub cb4017's Avatar
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    I can share these results. I loaded some light .357 mag rounds using a 158 gr cast FP bullets in front of 4 gr of WST. Velocity out of a 4" Ruger SS was 793 fps. Out of a 20" Henry velocity was 974 fps.

    I also shot some loads of 158 gr SWC in front of 7 gr of SR 7625. Ruger velocity was 1136 fps. Henry velocity was 1331 fps.
    Cliff
    FPD, NRA Lifer, USN retired

  13. #13
    Boolit Master Outpost75's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cb4017 View Post
    I can share these results. I loaded some light .357 mag rounds using a 158 gr cast FP bullets in front of 4 gr of WST. Velocity out of a 4" Ruger SS was 793 fps. Out of a 20" Henry velocity was 974 fps.

    I also shot some loads of 158 gr SWC in front of 7 gr of SR 7625. Ruger velocity was 1136 fps. Henry velocity was 1331 fps.
    Good data points, thanks for posting!
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  14. #14
    Boolit Master
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    Noe 360-160 swc hp cast of 20-1 lead/tin over 6.3 gr. unique does 1134 fps from a 4 inch GP100 and 1395 fps from a 20 inch Rossi 92.
    Most evil in our society today can be cured by the proper application of the A.C.P.

  15. #15
    Boolit Master
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    I shoot 158 Lee rnfp in 6" SW 686 over 8gr AA#5 for 1100fps, out of 20" bbl 1873, get 1375ish.

  16. #16
    Boolit Master
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    At the far end of the spectrum, Buffalo Bore is claiming for their .357 158g JHP cartridges 1485fps from a 4" revolver, and 2153fps from an 18 1/2" lever action. That's an increase of over 650fps.

  17. #17
    Boolit Master
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    Since I bought my first chronograph (reminds me of how old I am..it was an Oehler model 12, which gave you a binary readout of the elapsed time and a chart that gave you a conversion to fps, purchased forty some years ago) I have learned that my firearms do not read nor follow the same books and charts that I do. I have also learned that ammo, especially on the lower velocity end of the spectrum, can vary greatly from firearm to firearm. I assume that this is in large part caused by drag of the bore, which is minimized in higher velocity loadings.

    That being said, here are a few examples of my personal data. The following are 38 special loadings, based on 5 shot averages.
    2.8 gr of Red Dot and 115 gr cast bullet: Ruger 5 1/2", 669 fps, Uberti 73, 20", 803 fps
    5.0 gr Unique and 125 gr cast bullet: Ruger 5 1/2", 950fps, Uberti 73, 20" 1122fps
    3.6 gr Trail Boss and 93 gr cast bullet. Ruger 5 1/2", 870 fps, Ubert Lightning, 24", I think, but might have been 20" 776fps. (I was very surprized by this, so fired another 5 rounds to confirm, and got same results) I planned to slug the barrel of this rifle and see if there was anything strange, but got extracted by something bright and shiny, never shot this rifle again, and never got it done)



    This is 357 example, with a little hotter loading
    11.0 gr H4227 and 125 gr cast bullet: Ruger 6 1/2", 1031 fps, Winchester 92, 24" 1355fps

    In doing some playing with 38 vs 357, fillers and different loadings, I found some interesting things. Here is an example. 38 special case, 2.8 Red Dot and 125 gr cast bullet. The thing that varied was the depth of the bullet seating. (I kind of stumbled into doing this because I bought a pair of Ruger Single Six's that had been converted to 38. They would chamber a 38 special case, but because of the cylinder length, the cases needed to be loaded very short.)

    In the "short" loading, I seated the bullet so that the nose was even with the end of the case. In the "long" loading, the bullet was seated longer than normal, beyond the crimping grove, so that the overall case length approximated the OAL of a 357.
    "short" loading: Ruger 5 1/2" 707 fps, Uberti 73, 20" 901 fps
    "long" loading: Ruger 5 1/2" 528 fps, Uberti 73, 20" 789 fps

    I have also found, in comparing the same loading in two different Rugers, with serial numbers within 100 of each other, that there was an average velocity difference between the two of 50 fps, with the same load.

    The whole point of all this, is that while we all need loading data to give us norms, averages and starting points, the actual results can vary greatly when actually loaded and shot. With the low costs that chronos have dropped to, I think it is a tool that every serious handloader should consider.

    Jackpine

  18. #18
    Boolit Master

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    Not a 357, but in my 45acp I see the greatest jump using slower powders. Cfe pistol is one of the most impressive and it burns well in moderate loads as well.
    "In God we trust, in all others, check the manual!"

  19. #19
    Boolit Mold
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    I recently bought a Marlin .357 and I'm starting to load for it. My first load was in magnum cases using 4.5 grains of W231 under a RCBS 38 150 SWC which casts at 155 grains. Out of my revolvers it clocks at +/- 850 FPS. From the Marlin I got 1060 FPS. I think I'll try a 4.0 grain load next to get closer to 900 FPS.
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  20. #20
    Boolit Mold
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    Thanks for all the replies. Very basic trend of the above.

    2.8-4.5 grain powder loads. Around 120-180fps increase in a rifle
    5-8 grain powder loads. 200-270fps increase in a rifle.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check