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Thread: What do you know about 45-70 forager rounds?

  1. #21
    Boolit Buddy
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    410 shells 2.5" long shoot fine out of a 45-70. Have done it. Anything over 15-20 yards the pattern is iffy. May not eject well from a lever gun but should work fine in a single shot. Both Marlin and Winchester sold guns based on their normal lever action in 410. Now bringing big bucks on GunBroker.

  2. #22
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  3. #23
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    these may be of apropos interest ...
    I appreciate the link, and it is a curious item, but I am suspicious and my neck hairs are standing on end. Considering most of the video, and a good portion of the advertised kit show Lee Classic Loader parts (which I already have), AND at no place can I find a place to actually get a price or order the kit. Everything says call guy in Oregon... The only date mentioned on the site is 2012, and nothing indicates anybody but me has even tracked dust through that website since... There are exactly three websites in the world that mention that kit and are word for word verbatim copy and pastes, and a single magazine reference from Nov 2013 for the Single Shot Exchange... A magazine whose last "Back Issue" available is from 2016, and hasn't updated their copyright and website info since 2015, and who advertises that if you buy a year subscription you get a free ad to advertise in the magazine as part of it.... I just.... These may all be up and up people, that may be an up and up product, but everything screams snake oil to me...

    Besides which several folks on here have loaded round ball loads without that kit. I dunno maybe I am just too suspicious but... no....


    Forty Years with the 45-70 by Paul A Matthews
    I understand it is a good book. Can anybody tell me if it actually mentions a wood capsule/sabot forager round anywhere between the covers before I spend money I don't really have on a copy?
    The authors personal experiences with a number of different .45-70 rifles over the past 4 decades. Soft cover, 184 pages.

    The Table of Contents includes the following:

    Acknowledgments
    Introduction to First Edition
    Chapter 1 The Seed Is Planted
    Chapter 2 The Search
    Chapter 3 The Gould Bullet
    Chapter 4 The Postell Bullet and a Springfield
    Chapter 5 Back to the Gould Bullet
    Chapter 6 Jacketed Bullets and a Few Deer
    Chapter 7 A Question of Pressure
    Chapter 8 Multiple Bullet Load
    Chapter 9 Looking for a Single Shot
    Chapter 10 The Two Rugers
    Chapter 11 More Deer with the No. 1
    Chapter 12 Back to the Ruger No. 3
    Chapter 13 Search for a Cast Bullet
    Chapter 14 RCBS, Old West and Hoch Molds
    Chapter 15 Paper Patched Bullets
    Chapter 16 Deer and Wild Boar
    Chapter 17 Patching Grooved Bullets
    Chapter 18 Other Molds and Loads
    Chapter 19 Powders
    Chapter 20 The Final Word
    Chapter 21 Letters
    Addendum - Six More Years
    Introduction to Addendum
    Chapter 22 Back to a Lever Rifle - the Marlin 1895SS
    Chapter 23 The Navy Arms Buffalo Rifle
    Chapter 24 A New Long-Range .45-70 Rifle
    I've got enough load data to load just about anything in the 45-70 using almost any powder and bullet imaginable from black powder to cordite, from collar button and round ball to 500+ gr. The information I DON'T HAVE is for.... wait for it... 45-70 wood capsule/sabot forager rounds.... Does Chapter 8 Multiple Bullet Load or Chapter 18 Other Molds and Loads have this information? Please! So many people say "get a copy" somebody has to have one! If it has this info I will buy one, can somebody please just let me know if it does?


    Wayne Smith said
    My 45-70 barrel currently is my Encore Katadin barrel.

    Making the shot capsule is not a problem. Take a piece of wood the appropriate length, drill a hole the right size and depth (what I need to know) and put an expandable rubber chuck in the hole and turn the outside to appropriate size/shape.
    Wayne, I have an email sent to Kenneth McPheeters, owner of McPheeters Antique Militaria to see if he would be kind enough to get us OD, ID, and Depth info on the rounds. In all honesty I know it is asking alot of Mr McPheeters to get that information, and at this point if I had the money I would simply buy the rounds outright. I didn't feel good about sending him a random email asking for the information, but it is because I've always done business with men face to face with a handshake. I do intend to someday acquire some of the loaded rounds and hopefully a capsule or two to add to my collection, and being that he is in my home state of Texas he'll be the first person I'll try to purchase from. I already know this is going to happen "someday" but man this has my attention so hard that I want to get the information ASAP, and "someday" is driving me nuts.

    God Bless, and One Love

    Richard
    Yes I can be long winded. Yes I follow rabbit trails. Yes I admit when I am wrong. Your mileage may vary.

    Keep your powder dry. Watch yer Top knot.

    "Praise the Lord and pass the ammunition!"

    Yes there were "Short" 45 Colts! http://www.leverguns.com/articles/taylor/45_short_colt.htm

  4. #24
    Boolit Master
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    Not to leave anybody out, I'm really enjoying what I'm reading, and if any of my replies seem "aggressive" that isn't my intent by any stretch of the imagination and if I am coming across that way I do apologize.

    Larry Gibson
    I like that idea very much, and again I'll add it to the list of things I want to test against the historic rounds once I've gotten to that point. I appreciate all the detail, and man it is good to know you've gotten good results from those loads.

    Outpost75
    That is a good question and I would be interested as well.

    "Borrowed from Wikipedia"
    45-70
    Case type Rimmed, tapered[1]
    Bullet diameter .458 in (11.6 mm)
    Neck diameter .480 in (12.2 mm)
    Base diameter .505 in (12.8 mm)
    Rim diameter .608 in (15.4 mm)
    Rim thickness .070 in (1.8 mm)
    Case length 2.105 in (53.5 mm)
    Overall length 2.550 in (64.8 mm)
    Rifling twist 1-20"
    Primer type Large rifle

    .410 bore
    Case type Rimmed, straight, (optional plastic)
    Bullet diameter .410 in (10.4 mm) (slug)
    Neck diameter .455 in (11.6 mm) (plastic)
    Base diameter .470 in (11.9 mm)
    Rim diameter .535 in (13.6 mm)
    Rim thickness .060 in (1.5 mm)
    Overall length 2", 2½, 3"
    Primer type Shotshell Primer
    There's enough variance there, especially at head and rim I would be concerned about safety and head splitting. Has anybody ever done that? I am not encouraging anybody to try since I don't know if it is safe, I am asking has anybody already done it. I KNOW the reverse wouldn't be safe. PLEASE be safe and practice only safe loading and ammunition procedures. Use only the ammunition and load data listed for your particular firearm.

    God Bless, and One Love

    Richard
    Yes I can be long winded. Yes I follow rabbit trails. Yes I admit when I am wrong. Your mileage may vary.

    Keep your powder dry. Watch yer Top knot.

    "Praise the Lord and pass the ammunition!"

    Yes there were "Short" 45 Colts! http://www.leverguns.com/articles/taylor/45_short_colt.htm

  5. #25
    Boolit Grand Master In Remembrance
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    GoodOlBoy - I've seen that Gatling round (anti-personnel use) too. Somewhere.

    Larry Gibson - Hmmm! Thank you. I can see I have catching up to do! Already have Remington SP-410 shot wads (I use those for 45 ACP shot shells), semi hard to find. Would those suffice? Can get the Federal 410SC if needed. Then I'll need a 45-70 Would those rounds cycle and function acceptably in a Henry lever action, any idea? (I know the shot'd disperse in a cone due to rifling. Oh well.)

    Wayne Smith, expandable rubber chuck, nice idea!

  6. #26
    Boolit Master
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    They existed all right. The contracts are known, and I should think some specimens have recorded military provenance and packaging. But I am quite sure a lot are fakes. Whether they were commonly issued I don't know. It could easily be that some soldiers brought along a few they purchased themselves, to improve their lot on campaign. Remember that some have suggested one reason for the Little Bighorn disaster to be the very limited number of bulleted rounds the soldiers got to expend on target practice. But that was serious business, and recreation and variety of nutrition might have lagged some way behind.

    Bruce's website, an excellent one, doesn't say much about shot size. I would suspect that soldiers may have seen more of the guard cartridge, although those were no doubt seldom fired. Mistakes do happen at night, and it has been common practice for armies, right into the smokeless era, to have guard cartridges that wouldn't look too bad if you had to make apologies afterwards.

    I wouldn't trust the short-sabot rounds in a tube-magazine rifle and if you wanted to duplicate these rounds nowadays, I think you would get the best results by forming the longest brass you could get with the .45-70 base dimensions. But that would be expensive and rebodying .45-70 cases with half-inch K&S brass tubing would probably be adequate. The wooden sabots would surely require a good, solid wad to prevent the shot occasionally being blown out, leaving the soldier with a bore obstruction and a ring-bulged barrel to have stopped out of his pay. That wad would much reduce the powder space, but you don't need the rifle charge, which would probably produce deformed shot and blown patterns.

    If I wanted to use wood I would experiment with thin veneer steamed bent around a mandrel and either glued with a water soluble glue or with any kind if you let it dry to shape first, I think two thicknesses of veneer would be stronger than the drilled kind, and probably still burst at the muzzle.

  7. #27
    Boolit Master
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    Ballistics in Scotland... steam bending wood veneer..... son of a gun, even if I can get the dimensions and try Wayne's method I think this method is worth testing too! Thanks for that suggestion! As for fakes, oh I am sure if there is a dollar to be made from a dime somebody somewhere has made a fake of it. Mostly I am interested in recreating the originals purpose and methods of creation. Or at least a workable facsimile thereof.

    Mr Sheesh - it's a bear havin' CRS... I'm eat up with it! Or as I always say to my wife "My rememberer is broke, and my forgetter is stuck in high gear!" Hopefully tonight I can do some more online digging, maybe figure out where it was I read about that Gatling gun load...


    God Bless, and One Love

    Richard
    Yes I can be long winded. Yes I follow rabbit trails. Yes I admit when I am wrong. Your mileage may vary.

    Keep your powder dry. Watch yer Top knot.

    "Praise the Lord and pass the ammunition!"

    Yes there were "Short" 45 Colts! http://www.leverguns.com/articles/taylor/45_short_colt.htm

  8. #28
    Boolit Master
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    Read this sticky: http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...+loads+work%21

    You should be able to adapt the idea for your usage.
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  9. #29
    Boolit Grand Master uscra112's Avatar
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    How about forming capsules with papier-mache around a plastic mandrel?
    Cognitive Dissident

  10. #30
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    Attachment 221020
    Attachment 221021
    Attachment 221022
    Attachment 221023
    I didn't know they were called Forager rounds. Wood appears to be poplar or birch.
    "EXPERT= Ex is a has been, spurt is a drip under pressure" Unknown

  11. #31
    Boolit Grand Master In Remembrance
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    Thanks folks, a great thread

    If you REALLY want to bend wood, there's steaming it, and then there's ammonia, which makes it spaghetti-noodle-like till it evaporates off?Friend uses that on musical instrument repairs, I can get TOO MANY details from him, he tends to talk for hours. S'OK tho

    Papier Mache could work, plastic 410 wads seem faster tho

  12. #32
    Boolit Master
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    Some veneer might bend to a .45 circumference dry, with the grain lengthwise, or dipping it in boiling water might do. Ammonia sounds interesting, although it may darken some kinds of wood, as the fumes do with oak.

  13. #33
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    http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...d-with-ammonia is an example of that technique. If you use Anhydrous Ammonia fumes that'll work too, but few have that around since the Blueprint etc. went away...

  14. #34
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by shell70634 View Post
    Attachment 221020
    Attachment 221021
    Attachment 221022
    Attachment 221023
    I didn't know they were called Forager rounds. Wood appears to be poplar or birch.
    That's a nice collection of them you've got! Popular or Birch would make sorta sense, and would explain the light coloration and strength of the wood.

    Hadn't heard of the ammonia version of bending wood, but that don't surprise me much. Any information on it would be appreciated! What I know would fill a book or two, what I don't know would fill libraries!

    God Bless, and One Love

    Richard
    Yes I can be long winded. Yes I follow rabbit trails. Yes I admit when I am wrong. Your mileage may vary.

    Keep your powder dry. Watch yer Top knot.

    "Praise the Lord and pass the ammunition!"

    Yes there were "Short" 45 Colts! http://www.leverguns.com/articles/taylor/45_short_colt.htm

  15. #35
    Boolit Master
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    Update: So far no response from McPheeters, which is not unexpected. I mean I am asking for free information out of a person running a business so it isn't like I can grouse if I don't get it.

    Still digging and reading. Collecting every image and piece of info I can find on them... I think I have found a very unhealthy obsession with these rounds. Only time will tell I guess.

    It is still my intent to keep going on these. If anybody runs across more info, pics, or ideas. Please feel free to post them. I won't stop checking this post anytime soon

    God Bless, and One Love.

    GoodOlBoy
    Yes I can be long winded. Yes I follow rabbit trails. Yes I admit when I am wrong. Your mileage may vary.

    Keep your powder dry. Watch yer Top knot.

    "Praise the Lord and pass the ammunition!"

    Yes there were "Short" 45 Colts! http://www.leverguns.com/articles/taylor/45_short_colt.htm

  16. #36
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoodOlBoy View Post
    That's a nice collection of them you've got! Popular or Birch would make sorta sense, and would explain the light coloration and strength of the wood.

    Hadn't heard of the ammonia version of bending wood, but that don't surprise me much. Any information on it would be appreciated! What I know would fill a book or two, what I don't know would fill libraries!

    God Bless, and One Love

    Richard
    Your loaded rounds appear to be solid wood slugs rather than wood shot cups. They are interesting though.

  17. #37
    Boolit Master
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    Your loaded rounds appear to be solid wood slugs rather than wood shot cups. They are interesting though.
    Nope, that's what the wood sabot/capsule looks like from the top side. Image borrowed from McPheeters Antique Militaria.
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	McPheeters wood capsules.jpg 
Views:	50 
Size:	104.0 KB 
ID:	221342
    Hollow on the bottom, round bullet-y shape on top... Each one filled with shot.

    God Bless, and One Love

    GoodOlBoy
    Yes I can be long winded. Yes I follow rabbit trails. Yes I admit when I am wrong. Your mileage may vary.

    Keep your powder dry. Watch yer Top knot.

    "Praise the Lord and pass the ammunition!"

    Yes there were "Short" 45 Colts! http://www.leverguns.com/articles/taylor/45_short_colt.htm

  18. #38
    Boolit Grand Master In Remembrance
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    Definitely handy images! I'd think that Papier Mache' is worth trying too, just to see if it fails or works I'm curious!

  19. #39
    Boolit Master
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    I received and email from Kenneth McPheeters of McPheeters Antique Militaria. He was extremely polite and knowledgeable, but is as usually my luck in such matters the sabots he had have already been sold, therefore he wasn't able to get measurements of them. He was able to give me a decent ballpark guess of the sabots, however.
    As memory serves, the sabots seat in the cartridge cases much the same as a lead bullet, and for all intent and purposes, the longer sabots are of the same basic dimension as the 500 grain lead bullet loaded for the arsenal produced .45-70 rifle cartridges. The shorter sabots were a bit shorter than the carbine bullet, but not dramatically so.
    So I am going to try to dig up information on the original Arsenal loaded 500gr bullet, and the Carbine bullet until I can afford to get actual rounds to dismantle and measure!
    In case he ever stops by a BIG thanks to Mr. Kenneth McPheeters for his time, and for trying to help. Thank you!

    Mr Sheesh - I'm interested how your idea turns out, keep us informed please!

    Again I have by no means given up on this idea or project. As soon as I have more information I will add it to the thread, and/or will be glad to continute any discussion on the matter!

    God Bless, and One Love.

    Richard
    Yes I can be long winded. Yes I follow rabbit trails. Yes I admit when I am wrong. Your mileage may vary.

    Keep your powder dry. Watch yer Top knot.

    "Praise the Lord and pass the ammunition!"

    Yes there were "Short" 45 Colts! http://www.leverguns.com/articles/taylor/45_short_colt.htm

  20. #40
    Boolit Grand Master In Remembrance
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    I am thinking that, since I don't have a .45-70, I can use a medium stiff load in .45 Colt maybe? A 14" contender barrel should tell us something about results. Maybe make a 1/8" thick wall thickness, that should do it? Size it to match a 600 Grain bullet, sure. Have to figure out a load

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check