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Thread: What do you know about 45-70 forager rounds?

  1. #41
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoodOlBoy View Post
    Nope, that's what the wood sabot/capsule looks like from the top side. Image borrowed from McPheeters Antique Militaria.
    Attachment 221342
    Hollow on the bottom, round bullet-y shape on top... Each one filled with shot.

    God Bless, and One Love

    GoodOlBoy
    That being the case the sabot would have to shatter like the modern day plastic sabot to work like a shot gun.

  2. #42
    Boolit Master
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    Mr Sheesh... Yep that might work. One of the advantages of the 45 long colt is speer and cci both still make plastic capsules to do the job. I would be very curious about a wood, or paper mache load as you mentioned in it. Just please please please be careful. We don't need to have a good person and re-loader injured. Always use safe loading practices, follow published load data, the whole lawyer warning blurb.

    45-70 Chevroner... I would fully expect that such a round would indeed shatter, split and splinter upon exiting the muzzle. We are talking about a very thin wood capsule/sabot running without lube, or with minimal lube down the rifling. When it exits the muzzle force of spin; not to mention force of expansive gasses into that rear open, or even if it is plugged, pocket; would logically crack that baby open like an egg out of a tater gun. Once it is split it would, due to weight, decelerate at a much faster rate than the shot itself would. The shot itself should stay in a tighter pattern due to the energy transfer and rotation from the rifling, without blowing out into a "donut" pattern because the shot itself never touched the rifling; which is the leading suspected cause of the "donut" shot patterns out of rifled barrels when not using a cup, capsule, sabot, or patch in a makeshift shell. But all of that being said it is one of the reasons I really want to measure an original round. They obviously had the thickness correct on the wood or it wouldn't be so blatantly similar between the various capsules/sabots shown.

    God Bless, and One Love

    GoodOlBoy
    Yes I can be long winded. Yes I follow rabbit trails. Yes I admit when I am wrong. Your mileage may vary.

    Keep your powder dry. Watch yer Top knot.

    "Praise the Lord and pass the ammunition!"

    Yes there were "Short" 45 Colts! http://www.leverguns.com/articles/taylor/45_short_colt.htm

  3. #43
    Boolit Master
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    Very interesting thread! My question concerns holding the lead shot in the wood sabot. Could a cardboard wad be pushed into the cavity, or maybe a bit of wax poured into it? All these questions.....
    NRA Life
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  4. #44
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by mazo kid View Post
    Very interesting thread! My question concerns holding the lead shot in the wood sabot. Could a cardboard wad be pushed into the cavity, or maybe a bit of wax poured into it? All these questions.....
    That question has been bugging me since I first saw them. I would suspect (but won't know until I can deconstruct a round or two) that there would be some kind of wadding in the base. Can it be? Certainly on a newly made round it CAN be, and I would think we would WANT it to be, but I don't know. WAS it done? Yeah back to deconstructing rounds Now as to the wax poured in... see that marks another question. I know that some folks have made "wax slugs" using shot and wax in shotgun shells, but the idea there is to get them to hold a "slug like" shape, which you wouldn't want in a "forager" round. Flip side is I think you are thinking (I could very well be wrong) on just pouring wax over the shot on the "bottom" open side of the capsule, and THAT would be an interesting result to test as well...

    Have I told ya'll I love this thread and it's theories and discussions? Man am I obsessed with these rounds....

    God Bless, and One Love

    GoodOlBoy
    Yes I can be long winded. Yes I follow rabbit trails. Yes I admit when I am wrong. Your mileage may vary.

    Keep your powder dry. Watch yer Top knot.

    "Praise the Lord and pass the ammunition!"

    Yes there were "Short" 45 Colts! http://www.leverguns.com/articles/taylor/45_short_colt.htm

  5. #45
    Boolit Master Drm50's Avatar
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    I have 45/70 crimped shells that we used in a punch that put hole for bolts in the rail we used in
    the mine. I have never fired one in any of my rifles because of pressure they may produce. I know
    guys that ruined some 22 semi fooling around with Ramset blanks. I also have a couple 45/70
    blanks from WW2 navy line throwing gun.
    If I was serious about making up some of these I would by some 45 basic brass, trim to AOL and
    load with 410 shot wad - put a 45 gas check on top and used what ever die necessary to put a
    slight roll crimp over it. This would also tend to help cartridge cycle through a lever with rolled
    case mouth. I did similar with 454 cases and 410 wads in 45Colt revolver. I couldn't get good
    velocity out of Buck Shot but small shot worked well. I have loaded doubl balls in 45 and it works
    ok for velocity and short range accuracy.

  6. #46
    Boolit Master
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    Since this is a casting site, the obvious route is to get a heavy boolit 45-70 mold and cast hot glue or resin boolits, drilling their bases for a shot capsule. You'll probably need a wad or two and a lube cookie like are sometimes used in BPCR loads.
    The first purpose of the Second Amendment is too often overlooked, fostering a liberty of mind and action necessary in the people of a free republic.

  7. #47
    Boolit Master
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    I'm thinking resin or hot glue boolits would hold together, not separate. Since we do most forms of reloading here I think we are pretty safe to keep investigating the wood capsule/sabot loads.

    God Bless, and One Love.

    GoodOlBoy
    Yes I can be long winded. Yes I follow rabbit trails. Yes I admit when I am wrong. Your mileage may vary.

    Keep your powder dry. Watch yer Top knot.

    "Praise the Lord and pass the ammunition!"

    Yes there were "Short" 45 Colts! http://www.leverguns.com/articles/taylor/45_short_colt.htm

  8. #48
    Boolit Master
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    I suspect that the insistence on wood for shot capsules will prove cost prohibitive in time and / or tooling. One to look at and say "I did it" is one thing, but a hundred anytime that you want to go shoot them is another.
    The first purpose of the Second Amendment is too often overlooked, fostering a liberty of mind and action necessary in the people of a free republic.

  9. #49
    Boolit Master
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    Look up "cut loads" on youtube, the cut the shell just behind the shot & launch that whole thing off as a poor man's slug... That one I wouldn't want to laubch through a full choke...

    And similarly there's a different thing they do where they cut the top off a field load then pour wax in to make it a slug with the pellets held together by the wax; Frangible so it comes undone on impact, that'd be a bit hard on Quail or Rabbit if your plan was to toss them in the pot for dinner.

    GoodOlBoy - Well, darn. I was planning to keep pressures below 75k PSI, tops; You mean you think I should keep it below 70k tops, then? So much for my plans for a Picric acid powered, triple C4 enhanced Super Shot Whammy load! LOL

    (I like slow powders and low pressures, was thinking more like a mouse fart load really, at first, NOT a heavy load. First firing'd be in a Contender as those are a bit hardish to make go kaboom. Probably a 45ACP Shotshell load should be too much powder, 6 Gr. of Unique with 105 grains of shot, so I'll start a WAYS below that if we're talking ~500 Gr. shot here? How does 1.5 Gr. Bullseye sound? Do I hear a 1 Gr. bid? If I load that in a 45 Colt there's lots of powder space. Maybe Kapok to position that. Reminds me, I need to get QuickLoad. NOT planning to be stupid here - More like seriously paranoidish, as Murphy IS out to get you and I, should we be dumb enough to turn our backs on him. I'll keep the higher pressures with magnum rounds, and slightly compressed loads of slow powder, per usual, and make this a fun but no body parts lost experience. I will tease about other things, but I refrain from uttering those deadly words, "Here - Hold my beer!" or even "What's the worst that could happen?" Those words get Murphy's complete attention, "Aaaah, another SUCKER!")

    First figure out how to make papier mache shotshells. I might use balsa or something for the nose cap & base, then it's just "make a cylinder" which could be in between 2 brass tubes, warm it till dry? Lots of thinking to do first, and some other reloading

  10. #50
    Boolit Master gpidaho's Avatar
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    The historical aspect of the forager rounds is what makes this interesting. Shotshells made from strait wall brass cases are common and load stacks and wadding as varied as your imagination. The 444 Marlin case is very common for making .410 shot loads and I can say from personal experience they work pretty good fired from either a 410 or a 444. Using stuffable wadding I see no reason why a 45-70 wouldn't work for filling the stew pot. Gp

  11. #51
    Boolit Master
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    Came up with yet another possibility here.

    Make a thin cloth (maybe linen?) bag (could use a tube and tie the end off, or a flat piece and fold it together.) That will act as the shot carrier.

    You will then need a base wad, wood or plastic or whatever, with a bit of a "wasp waist" for you to tie the bag to. That will seal the bag up.

    Might need to paint the bag (lots of possibilities from Decoupage acrylics to wax to shellac) for durability.

    Another one would be to make a thin paper tube, seal the end in any of MANY ways, attach its' base to a similar wad. That one might work too.

    (Rapidly coming up with new ideas, still finishing up some other things so no progress on testing.)

  12. #52
    Boolit Master
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    Mr Sheesh, the main reason I was advising safety is not for those of us who practice safe loading, but just as a reminder to folks who read these posts that may not even be part of the site. I shudder to think of some of the things we've seen come across here over the years, and there's always more to come.

    One of the things I have seriously considered is making the capsule, then once it is filled paper patch it, and use the paper patching both to bring it up to bore size, and to seal off the bottom of the capsule/sabot.

    As for cost prohibitive, and making 100 rounds to shoot that was mentioned. I don't really see this as a round I would take to the range and just bang away with all day long. More like a round I would keep 20 or so loaded on hand just in case I needed/wanted them. And as was said the history is mostly what makes this so interesting. Otherwise yeah, just get a 3D printer and print off a couple hundred empty capsules and get to loading, or crimp a shell, or any number of other things.

    God Bless, and One Love

    GoodOlBoy
    Yes I can be long winded. Yes I follow rabbit trails. Yes I admit when I am wrong. Your mileage may vary.

    Keep your powder dry. Watch yer Top knot.

    "Praise the Lord and pass the ammunition!"

    Yes there were "Short" 45 Colts! http://www.leverguns.com/articles/taylor/45_short_colt.htm

  13. #53
    Boolit Master
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    GoodOlBoy, I know; I have a lot of a sense of humor, it may be odd humor but it's kept me alive despite things that have not helped.

    At a local range, I've seen things like a .45-70 round that was accordioned to about 2/3 normal length - The guy with that round just hammered on his gun's lever to get it to load, despite a number of us expressing dire concerns and then leaving. I don't think it blew the gun up but we all suspected it would do SOMETHING vile to his weapon; You can't force people to learn nor use common sense! Fortunately that ranges' safety staff are GOOD, but you have to get them there before someone blows their idiot self UP to make that matter, sometimes...

    These rounds are, for me, more a learning experience; That's why I will be doing shot shells for a number of rounds, including some I don't own. (Yet at leat.) I'll need to find someone who handloads around the Seattle area with a .45-70 and a .41 Mag at least, to test those two out, unless I spend more $ on getting more shootin' sticks. Choices, choices!

    I definitely agree that someone who doesn't know what they're doing should apprentice or ask questions of and *listen carefully to the answers of* someone who IS knowledgeable, before trying reloading; It is said that the way to hell is paved with good intentions, well, "I didn't MEAN to load that round way too hot" seems a good intention... I'll tease about things like primary explosives in cartridges, but, that's humor - NOT something to do unless you're dropping those rounds off in an enemy ammo cache for them to blow themselves up with. (Which has been done in WW2 and Vietnam at least, I imagine other places too.) I'll joke about high pressures, if you look at my primers you won't see much flattening because that makes me CRINGE. Engineers understand what 55,000 PSI means - and what 75,000 PSI means - in a receiver that is inches from your face; So do other sane folks. It's the engineering equivalent of a "Here, hold my beer!" joke - Meant to point out "Yes, this is a VERY BAD IDEA", I am hoping people get that. Another one is to joke about picking a fight with the largest, nastiest guy you can find in a local biker bar, and his buddies too. "Nothing good can come of that!", and I don't even visit those. But in the right mindset it can be funny - Keep in mind that in dark times, humor gets darker, too (For example, join a local search and rescue group, go out on searches, and listen to searchers' humor on about day 8 of a search; Or Emergency Room staff humor on a hard day. It's how humans COPE. Don't mistake it for liking the stress, it's about handling the stress.)

    I don't much care about cost prohibitive, I'm disabled and have too much time on my hands, just wish I had more ENERGY and days I FELT GOOD on my hands. But if I can do something that I enjoy that makes something more flexible and useful, I'll do it; Same as the rest of handloading; that's the draw of handloading for me! And cost and accuracy too

  14. #54
    Boolit Master
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    I'm right there in the boat with you buddy. There days my head is clear and my hands ain't, and days my hands are good but my head ain't clear. I don't load on any of them kinda combos. As for dark humor, early to mid 1990s I was a scuba diver with a rescue cert... yeah I know what it gets to be like just to keep yourself going down one more time.

    I'm also right there with you on it being a learning experience. I've learned more about handloading since I've been with castboolits than I ever knew before. Some of the most valuable of them lessons was what NOT to do

    Lemme know how your tests go, I'll post if I ever get mine to a testing stage. In the meantime I'm still enjoying this thread if anybody wants to chime in for any reason. The shells to me are one of many ballistic oddities in a world that we have so much information on and yet know so little about.

    God Bless, and One Love!

    GoodOlBoy
    Yes I can be long winded. Yes I follow rabbit trails. Yes I admit when I am wrong. Your mileage may vary.

    Keep your powder dry. Watch yer Top knot.

    "Praise the Lord and pass the ammunition!"

    Yes there were "Short" 45 Colts! http://www.leverguns.com/articles/taylor/45_short_colt.htm

  15. #55
    Boolit Master
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    Rescue diver is one thing I have intentionally avoided; It's enough to pick up after a light aircraft crash where all aboard perish, and so on. I'll post separately later on to see about finding someone local with some calibers I don't have, to test rounds...

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check