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Thread: Elasticity of tin?

  1. #1
    Boolit Grand Master Tripplebeards's Avatar
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    Elasticity of tin?

    In some of the readings I've done in here it seems that Tin(I'm using pewter) helps with keeping the hollow point pedals of the 44 mag devastators I'm casting from shearing off. I've tried pure lead with 6% pewter with a Bh around 6.5 at 1675fps and ended up with a completely flatten bullet that was about 1/4" wider than it started with and I'm guessing a little less than a 100g left from the original 270g. I couldn't catch my acccow 14 Bh that went through 8 jugs of wAter and kept cruising. I've seen pics of these caught by other members with the pedals sheered off. I mixed up 50/50...acccow that has a Bh around 14 and my soft lead with a Bh around 6. I also added 2% pewter. I figured this would be a happy medium for optimum expansion and still a good amount of weight retention for thin skinned whitetails. I plan on using these in my Ruger 77/44 and going to try h110 from 21 to 23g and see how my groupings are. I'm wondering if I would gain anything by adding, say a total of 6% or more of pewter in the idea of keeping my boolit pedals from shearing off?

  2. #2
    Boolit Buddy Went2kck's Avatar
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    bullet placement is more important.

  3. #3
    Boolit Grand Master Tripplebeards's Avatar
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    You have a point but it doesn't answer my question. I want an alloy that will expand to give the best kinetic energy transfer without coming apart. I don't want to make a hard boolit that doesn't expand and just poke holes. If so I will shoot it with an arrow for the same effect.

  4. #4
    Boolit Master
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    You say tin and then you say pewter. Perhaps it would be a good idea to know exactly what is in your pewter that might give a false result. You are going with a deep hollow point bullet, Lyman Devastator, which is known to produce and shed petals with a soft alloy, or break off petals if using a hard alloy. And you are using a pistol bullet in a carbine with a higher than designed velocity? Perhaps you should consider a cup point which will mushroom, but not so likely to break up at higher velocities??

  5. #5
    Boolit Grand Master Tripplebeards's Avatar
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    Nope, going to use the devastor. Not looking for opinions just answers on how to get it to expand without shedding too much lead at higher velocities. Pewter has 93% percent or more tin in it if you were not aware. If it sheds some lead the fragments are going to cause more trauma and Kenetic energy transfer for a quicker harvest anyways. Just trying to get the best alloy mix for a wide mushroom. Probably going to have to do the legwork and get the the answers myself and report back. I just want some rapid expansion and good weight retention.
    Last edited by Tripplebeards; 05-20-2018 at 10:20 PM.

  6. #6
    Boolit Master Retumbo's Avatar
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    Copper adds elasticity as you call it

  7. #7
    Boolit Grand Master Tripplebeards's Avatar
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    How do I get copper in the mix? Thought it took a lot higher temps to melt?

  8. #8
    Boolit Buddy mike69's Avatar
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    I use coww with 2% tin mixed with pure to get 96-2-2 according to the alloy calculator . With my 454 Casull and a hollow point at 1500 fps the only bullet I ever recovered went long ways through a deer was flattened the depth of hollow point and only lost one side where it looked like it hit bone.

  9. #9
    Boolit Grand Master Tripplebeards's Avatar
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    Thanks mike, now we are getting somewhere. I just want to make sure I don't go with too soft of an alloy.

  10. #10
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tripplebeards View Post
    Nope, going to use the devastor. Not looking for opinions just answers on how to get it to expand without shedding too much lead at higher velocities. Pewter has 93% percent or more tin in it if you were not aware. If it sheds some lead the fragments are going to cause more trauma and Kenetic energy transfer for a quicker harvest anyways. Just trying to get the best alloy mix for a wide mushroom. Probably going to have to do the legwork and get the the answers myself and report back. I just want some rapid expansion and good weight retention.
    Composition:
    Modern Pewter ... International standards define pewter as having a composition of 90 to 98 percent tin, 1 to 8 percent antimony and 0.25 to 3 percent copper, with limits specified for various impurities (lead, arsenic, iron and zinc).

    There was a valid reason to ask if you knew what was in your pewter. If you have a high percentage of antimony it will more than likely just fracture and break off anyway. If it already has copper, there is little to be gained by adding more. Generally, copper adds toughness. Dusty

  11. #11
    Boolit Master Retumbo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tripplebeards View Post
    How do I get copper in the mix? Thought it took a lot higher temps to melt?
    http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...s-this-further

  12. #12
    Boolit Grand Master Tripplebeards's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dusty Bannister View Post
    Composition:
    Modern Pewter ... International standards define pewter as having a composition of 90 to 98 percent tin, 1 to 8 percent antimony and 0.25 to 3 percent copper, with limits specified for various impurities (lead, arsenic, iron and zinc).

    There was a valid reason to ask if you knew what was in your pewter. If you have a high percentage of antimony it will more than likely just fracture and break off anyway. If it already has copper, there is little to be gained by adding more. Generally, copper adds toughness. Dusty
    Thanks for the brake down Dusty. I've read that older pewter can can have quite a bit of PB in the mix and is darker in color. I have some older pieces which are dark and oxide looking and newer silver colored examples...both marked pewter of course. I thought pewter added toughness and flexibility?

  13. #13
    Boolit Master redhawk0's Avatar
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    While Pewter (Tin) will aid in filling out bullet molds at molten temperatures...I'm not sure these same properties can be seen in cold cast bullets. I would think the softer the lead...the more it would be malleable and mushroom without falling apart...excessive hardness to it would cause fragmentation. Something in the 97-3-0 range would be super soft and mushroom but would allow fillout when cast. The problem then is if its too soft you may get barrel leading. There is a delicate balance to alloying lead. Too soft at high velocity gives leading, too hard and high velocity gives fragmentation due to the brittleness due to the added Antimony. Soft lead at lower velocity should give good results in mushroom expansion but you give up distance due to lower velocity.

    I guess it's all up to an individual's needs. You might have to do some experimenting to find the perfect balance.

    redhawk

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  14. #14
    Boolit Grand Master Tripplebeards's Avatar
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    I tested my ac 50/50 mix with 2% pewter that I casted last Thursday. It has a BH of 10.4. My ac coww are 14.3 BH and my soft mix of 94/6 of floor flashing and pewter mix is around 7 BH. All are PC'd and GC'd. I'm thinking 10.4 should give me enough rapid expansion around 1700 fps and I believe I should have some good weight retention. I'll do a water jug test and post the mushrooms.

  15. #15
    Boolit Grand Master Tatume's Avatar
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    The abbreviation for gram is g; 270 g is more than half a pound. I think you mean 270 gr.

  16. #16
    Boolit Grand Master Bazoo's Avatar
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    I'd say lyman #2 would be a starting point for choice of alloy, but If you started with straight linotype, and added i'd guess 4% tin, you'd come closer to what you want. The devastator HP design was not designed for 44 magnum velocity level, but rather 45 auto velocity. So, as the velocity increases, you have to change your alloy to match the power of the loads. If you're running 270 grain bullets , you're going not only to need a tough alloy for the initial velocity, but also the extra momentum.

  17. #17
    Boolit Grand Master Tripplebeards's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tatume View Post
    The abbreviation for gram is g; 270 g is more than half a pound. I think you mean 270 gr.

    Yes, 270 grains...I think everyone else figured it out. Thanks for your helpful answer to figure out my original question.


    Here is some proof of actual use of straight one hundred percent of ACCOWW. I'd like to make them a little softer for a little wider mushroom. I believe my 50/50 mix with a little pewter should do the trick on thinner skinned animals. Hogs have some tough hides and are bigger boned than my whitetails. I want a little more expansion for initial shock when entering the animal. I believe my 7BH is going to be too soft.
    I have the soft mushrooms listed in one of my old posts...just can't find the pics.


    http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...-the-Lee-310gr
    Last edited by Tripplebeards; 05-21-2018 at 03:28 PM.

  18. #18
    Boolit Master
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    Most of the modern pewter I've had XRF tested had little to no antimony and 1-4% copper. I'm talking 80-100lb lots of pewter cast at one time. The last antimony that showed up in any batch was .8%.

  19. #19
    Boolit Master MyFlatline's Avatar
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    Will second Copper. Copper sulfate is what I use. Many a thread right here on the forum on the subject.

  20. #20
    Boolit Grand Master Tatume's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tatume View Post
    The abbreviation for gram is g; 270 g is more than half a pound. I think you mean 270 gr.
    I apologize for this remark.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check