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Thread: Front Sight Tactical Shotgun Class results.

  1. #1
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    Front Sight Tactical Shotgun Class results.

    As some may remember, (or not) I took a Tactical Shotgun Class at Front Sight last November.

    The results of that class were I got the snot beat out of me by the gun, and was sore for a week afterwards.

    Fast Forward to earlier this week.

    I attended another shotgun class at Front Sight. This time I had done more work on the gun to include improved sling positioning, a different Recoil Pad and most importantly a barrel which has been given the Vang Comp Treatment, which includes lengthening the Forcing Cone, Back Boring the barrel and Porting at the Muzzle.

    These mods working together made this gun a pleasure to shoot. I shot about 250 rounds of 12ga. ammo including 175 Birdshot, 40ea. 00 Bucks, and 35ea. Federal Low Recoil Slugs.

    The results were very positive.

    Last time I came home with a big bruise on my cheek and a pinch mark on my neck, and my right shoulder was a pretty red color for a week after. None of that this time. The recoil is very controllable and very tolerable.

    The biggest change was the Vang Comped Barrel. The recoil is now strait in line with the barrel. There is no muzzle flip due to the barrel porting, and the recoil impulse is much smoother due to the back boring and lengthening of the forcing cone. This was definitely $200 well spent, and the perceived recoil was NOTICABLY LESS! My un-bruised shoulder and cheek are the proof of that!

    The gun performed perfectly throughout the whole class.

    The Buck Shot pattern was 4" at 15 yards and the birdshot Pattern was @7" at 15 yards, and well under the Vang Comp claims,,, thus making the gun a super viable HD gun.

    Slugs shot to POA at 50 yards, mainly because I sighted the gun in before we left for Nevada, but I still managed to put 3 slugs in the 3x4" Head Box at 50 yards,,, offhand! (all that pellet gun shooting I've been doing definitely paid off.)

    I have to say the Vang Comp Mods to my barrel and my Bro in laws barrel really made a difference and we would both recommend the process to anyone setting up a Tactical Shotgun. This has nothing to do with a field gun so don't waste your time in that regard.

    Hans Vang has been doing these mods for 40 years and they definitely work.

    Here's a pic of my head shots from 50 yards offhand.

    Randy
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    Last edited by W.R.Buchanan; 05-17-2018 at 04:30 PM.
    "It's not how well you do what you know how to do,,,It's how well you do what you DON'T know how to do!"
    www.buchananprecisionmachine.com

  2. #2
    Boolit Master copdills's Avatar
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    great job , you gave us all alot of things to think about, Thanks

  3. #3
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    I can't recommend the Vang Comp Barrel Mods enough. It completely transformed this gun from a Shoulder/Face Beater to a smooth shooting gun that is much easier to run and shoot accurately.

    I know there are people who think this is a bunch of Hooey, but the results were so noticeable that the Range Master came and shot my gun next to another gun just like mine without the barrel mods and we could all see the difference in muzzle rise and even the way the recoil impulse happened. He has over 20 years experience teaching this class and kind of knows what he is talking about.

    He sent two of his guns off yesterday to Vang Comp, so I think he was convinced.

    Randy
    "It's not how well you do what you know how to do,,,It's how well you do what you DON'T know how to do!"
    www.buchananprecisionmachine.com

  4. #4
    Boolit Master
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    I'll admit, I'm one who thinks it's more in your head than actual feel. Doesn't matter what I think though, if you like it. I'd like to try it out if you ever come up my way.

    The thing that sets off a red flag for me is the "back boring." This is a very easily misunderstood, or wrongly advertised service. All it is, is boring out the barrel, plain and simple. You would get the same benefits by buying a 10 gauge. Vang comp seems a little vague in their video, and actually make it sound like more of a tapered bore than anything. I'd like to see what exactly they do to a barrel. If they bore all but the muzzle, all you did was give the barrel a fixed choke. If they gave it a tapered bore, that could be interesting. I've never heard of back boring doing anything good for slugs, but it looks like it worked out fine for you. The lengthened forcing cone, along with the choke causing recoil? I'm a non-believer. They may play a part in pattern, but I can tell no recoil difference between a cylinder choke, and a turkey choke. I've tried it back to back, in the same gun. Honestly, I think the porting does more for you than anything, both recoil and muzzle rise. I personally don't like porting or muzzle brakes, but that's from a hunters perspective.

    Sounds like you had fun. I've been thinking of taking a shotgun course myself. The one I was looking at recommended a similar distribution of ammo quantities, particularly the birdshot/buckshot. Is there any reason for such a low number of buckshot rounds, or is it mostly just a cost thing?

  5. #5
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    Mega: The buckshot thing is all about patterning the gun so people can see exactly what to expect from their guns. We mostly shot paper targets with it. Whereas we only shot steel targets with bird shot at 15 and 20 yards or slugs at 35 and 50 yards. We did shoot a few rounds of Buck at the steel targets at 35 yds, just so people could see how much the pattern spreads out at that distance.

    Obviously the majority of shooting is done with bird shot and this is done because the vast majority of shooting is more about gun manipulation than accuracy. If you can't hit a man sized target with a shotgun at 15 yards there is something seriously wrong with you. Shotguns are not rifles and as such there is little need for guilt edged accuracy or precise sight alignment. I always get a kick out of watching guys studying the sights on their shotguns when what they should be doing is covering the target with the Front Sight or Bead and pulling the trigger, and then riding the recoil to run the slide as soon as the gun fires.

    We shot paper with slugs to verify POI versus POA. Since I had sighted my gun in before we left home, I was good to go so I went ahead and shot the head shots just for the hill of it. We also shot some steel targets at 35 and 50 yards. The closest you can be to a steel target at FS with buck or slugs is 35 yards, and this is done for safety reasons. They won't even let you have buck or slugs on your person when shooting at 15 yards.

    The majority of the class was devoted to loading the gun, and keeping it loaded. Most shotguns only have between 5 and 8 rounds on board when fully loaded so you've got to keep the beast fed. If you are in a fight and people are shooting at you, you probably are not going to have time to keep stuffing rounds into the magazine, so the Art of Port Loading comes into play.

    You are standing there in the open and you run the gun dry. Do you load the magazine or do you drop one in the Ejection Port, close the slide, and keep firing,,,, again and again?

    You only do Tactical Reloads (magazine) when "Time and Cover Permit!"

    We did several drills where we were shooting at multiple targets while Port Loading the gun. We also did those drills where we started with a loaded gun (3 rounds) and ran it dry and then port Loaded for the remainder of the drill. I did one drill where I was able to get off 12 rounds before they stopped us. That was 3 from the magazine and 9 port loaded in about 45-60 seconds. I ran out of ammo in my shell carriers which feed with my left Hand, so I had to load the gun with my Right Hand.

    Then there is Clearing Malfunctions. All guns malfunction! You need to learn how to diagnose and fix all three of the common malfunctions, Type 1 "Failure to Fire". Type 2 "Failure to Eject." and Type 3 "Failure to Extract or Double Feed."

    There is alot to learn in one of these classes and I can assure you virtually no one is going to get it all the first time thru. I've been twice now and with the Front Sight Training Manual for Shotguns I can Dry Fire Practice at home, and advance my skills. I'm shooting a 3 gun match next week and I am going to kick a$$!!!

    What you do get is a real solid understanding of why a Pump Action is one of the most formidable weapons you can own. If your ranges are under 100 yards the amount of power and versatility in ammunition you get is not available in any other weapons system. Bird Shot, Buck Shot, Slugs, Rubber Bullets, Bean Bags, Rock Salt, Beehive Rounds (Fletchettes), and I even saw some little Fin Stabilized Missile Projectiles at SHOT that had 1/2 oz of C4 in them!

    Just so everybody understands exactly what was done to the barrel,,, Cylinder Bore on a 12 ga is usually between .732 and .735.

    The Forcing Cone is the part just forward of the chamber which transitions from the ID of the Shell to the ID of the bore. In the case of Mossberg 500's and most generic shotguns it is about 1/2" long.

    The Vang Comp process lengthens the Forcing Cone to @ 3" which provides a smoother transition into the bore.

    The Bore is then bored out to .745 however the reamer has a lead or taper on the front 2-3" that is tapered down to @ .730 This keeps the reamer centered in the bore as it is pushed thru. The reamer is stopped when the end is flush with the bore, so in effect there is a choke from .745 to .735 at the muzzle.

    Then the barrel is ported by drilling 31 @1/16" holes on either side of the Front Sight. (62 total)

    The results on my gun were stated in the first post, and it reduced "Perceived Recoil" enough so the gun didn't beat me at all. The ports eliminate muzzle rise which is responsible for separating your cheek from the comb of the stock and then smacking you in the cheek like this gun did to me repeatedly in my last class. After the second day I was quite done with it. This time no problem, and I could have easily shot for another 2 days.

    All in all, I can't recommend a class like this enough. You might think you know what's going on with your weapons system. If you haven't received either intense Military or LEO training in the last 5-6 years, I can assure you that you don't!

    Figuring out that you don't,,, is the first step towards getting trained.

    Things are changing rapidly! You've got to keep up or get left behind.

    Randy
    Last edited by W.R.Buchanan; 05-19-2018 at 05:02 PM.
    "It's not how well you do what you know how to do,,,It's how well you do what you DON'T know how to do!"
    www.buchananprecisionmachine.com

  6. #6
    Boolit Master
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    That does sound like a decent setup. I guess it makes perfect sense now, you have a back bored barrel with a fixed improved cylinder choke. I always wondered why guns like the 590 didn't all come with I/C chokes.

    That sound like you learned a lot, I'll look into the one in my area.

  7. #7
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    They all come with cylinder bores IE; .732-.735 This one now has a choke from .745 to .735.

    The back boring decreases the friction on the wad as it travels down the bore. I don't know exactly what that does for you but the gun patterns 00 Buck at 4" at 15 yards, and they guarantee 7" at 25 which I think is very likely to happen based on the 15 yard group.

    It was doing 7" at 15 yards with bird shot.

    Randy
    "It's not how well you do what you know how to do,,,It's how well you do what you DON'T know how to do!"
    www.buchananprecisionmachine.com

  8. #8
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    OK guys some practical experience with the gun.

    I shot a 3 gun match last Sunday and did pretty good with the shotgun. It was a Shotgun/Pistol stage and there was 6 clays to break then a 50 yard Slug Shot on a Steel target then 6 more clays, and done while you were supposed to be moving..

    I loaded 6 bird shots for the first part and missed one so I had to port load 1 round. Then since I planned the gun to be empty at that point so I could port load a slug I was in good shape. I missed the first shot on the steel so I loaded another slug and hit on the second shot. Then finished up the stage port loading the last 6 rounds.

    I had one hick up along the way and I don't know how it happened, but I managed to get a round in the port rim first and it was a pain to get out. I managed to get it out finally and finished the shotgun part of the stage.

    On to the pistol section where I shot nearly clean (all steel targets.) with only two or three pickups.It was 6 plates then a 4 shot dueling tree then 2 little poppers that were only 3" wide and 12" high. That's where I missed some shots.

    I had all the gun handling down pretty good after Front Sight, however adding time pressure really upped the ante, and I see much practice needed to be competitive.

    Also walking while shooting is not my strong point but I must learn how to do it as nearly all of these type of competitions require it in one form or another.

    On the Rifle Stage I shot my Kel Tec SU16 and did pretty good until it stove piped two or three rounds. This was due to the fact I hadn't shot the gun in 2 years and it was dirty and I was using Wolf steel cased ammo. This gun normally runs great. Add some time pressure and the problems start.

    Even so the I only missed one shot at 150 yards on the long distance steels. This was with a Red Dot Sight.

    Lost 32 seconds on the malfunctions !

    Had a great time and will be there again next month.

    Randy
    "It's not how well you do what you know how to do,,,It's how well you do what you DON'T know how to do!"
    www.buchananprecisionmachine.com

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check