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Thread: Strange problem with my new Winchester (Miroku) 1892

  1. #1
    Boolit Man
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    Strange problem with my new Winchester (Miroku) 1892

    I need some help.

    I have a new Winchester (Miroku) 1892 carbine in 44-40. I have fired 200 rounds through the rifle without any functional issues but I was struggling to find a good load. All loads so far are not reaching expected velocities and accuracy is poor. I'm using the Lee 200gn RNFP sized at .429.

    I decided to make a chamber cast and the casting was fine except it was too long and i couldn't get it out of the action (Facepalm).
    I needed to disassemble the rifle to get the bolt out and slide the chamber cast out to the rear of the action.

    Now, after i have reassembled to rifle it functions fine until the butt is replaced. Without the butt it cycles and works as expected.
    As soon as the butt is slid into place (without the tang screw) the trigger cannot be pulled and the hammer won't drop.

    I'm pulling what little hair i have left out trying to figure out whats causing the problem.

    Does anyone have any ideas what it could be? I have checked and re-checked. I can't see anything bent or broken.

  2. #2
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by CamoWhamo View Post
    I need some help.

    I have a new Winchester (Miroku) 1892 carbine in 44-40. I have fired 200 rounds through the rifle without any functional issues but I was struggling to find a good load. All loads so far are not reaching expected velocities and accuracy is poor. I'm using the Lee 200gn RNFP sized at .429.

    I decided to make a chamber cast and the casting was fine except it was too long and i couldn't get it out of the action (Facepalm).
    I needed to disassemble the rifle to get the bolt out and slide the chamber cast out to the rear of the action.

    Now, after i have reassembled to rifle it functions fine until the butt is replaced. Without the butt it cycles and works as expected.
    As soon as the butt is slid into place (without the tang screw) the trigger cannot be pulled and the hammer won't drop.

    I'm pulling what little hair i have left out trying to figure out whats causing the problem.

    Does anyone have any ideas what it could be? I have checked and re-checked. I can't see anything bent or broken.
    Just a shot in the dark here and may not be any help ----if they changed the mainspring setup from the original maybe it has got out of place sideways and fouling on the woodwork - cant happen with an original 92 because they have a flat mainspring with a stirrup connection to the hammer but on some of the 94's they ditched the stirrup so the spring could get sideways against the wood - still worked with the stock off but fouled up when it was put on (like you describe) - OR --- if its a coil mainspring make sure you didnt get the spring assembly back in upside down - I think you can do that with a Rossi - same again, it works without the butt - put the wood on and the curve of the upside down spring assembly fouls the wood. ----just guessing here but maybe ????????

  3. #3
    Boolit Man
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    I'll look at that mainspring again.
    It's a coil spring with a 2 prong fork shaped guide splayed into a Y shape. I looked at it and to me there's only one way it can go because the shape of the guide allows room for the cocked hammer. Also One of the prongs is longer and i don't think if it would reach the hammer if it was the other way.
    But it's a possibility and something i wasn't 100% sure about when re-assembling because i didn't take a picture before it went flying across the workshop. That spring is very strong and took me the best part of 2 hours to come up with a method of getting it back together.
    Last edited by CamoWhamo; 05-15-2018 at 05:50 AM.

  4. #4
    Boolit Master
    TCFAN's Avatar
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    When you get it working again try some cast bullets sized at .432 or .433 and see if that helps your accuracy issue.It did for me with my Marlin 94 Cowboy 44 Mag.

  5. #5
    Boolit Master

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    Maybe the fork/spring guide is inserted into the spring upside down? It probably needs to flex a certain way.

  6. #6
    Boolit Master pietro's Avatar
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    .

    Without a tang screw to clamp the lower tang tight to the stock, the lower tang may be just enough out of alignment to prevent smooth cycling.


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    Experience is a wonderful thing - It lets you recognize a mistake, when you make it again.

  7. #7
    Boolit Man
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    Quote Originally Posted by TCFAN View Post
    When you get it working again try some cast bullets sized at .432 or .433 and see if that helps your accuracy issue.It did for me with my Marlin 94 Cowboy 44 Mag.
    You might be right.

    The cerrosafe chamber cast mikes out at .431 so i took a cast of the last 3 inches of barrel and got the same result @ .431 after 1 hour.

    Looks like Miroku are using barrels to SAAMI .44 Magnum rifle spec and not the true .427 bores.


    The rifle still has the issue. I have eliminated the mainspring as the fault.
    With just the lower tang installed, i can physically see the difference in trigger travel with and without the butt fitted.
    I have tried both with and without the tang screw installed.

    The issue seems to be a problem with the lever detent not pushing the safety tab back far enough.
    I have stripped it down, checked and triple checked every part and cannot see what is causing the issue.

    I'm sending the rifle back for warranty repair tomorrow.

  8. #8
    Boolit Master

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    Make sure you don't have a piece of your chamber casting material stuck somewhere. I know, but I had it happen to me with cerrosafe as first time I did cast of lever I screwed up. Good luck.

  9. #9
    Boolit Master

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    Please get back to us with what the problem was when you get it fixed -- as I'm sure you will. It was working before you took it apart, and once put back together the same way it will work again. I can't quite help you with this problem, as I have a brand new Win./Miroku '73, also an ASM and a Cimarron/Chiappa '92, and I don't have to take them apart to see that the hammer/trigger mechanisms are different. Further, the Miroku people seem obsessed with hammer safety, what with the rebounding hammer, etc. in their redesigns, and my '92s are of the original design. But I've worked on lots of lever actions in the past and encountered somewhat the same problem you have in that I've reassembled them and then been unable to cock the hammer. As best as I can remember the hammer strut/hammer spring guide (whatever you want to call it) on some designs are shaped a bit bent, and if you insert it into the spring upside down (that would be turned over, the "fork" still pointing the same way) after reassembly it can't flex enough to let the hammer move to the rear sufficiently to cock. Otherwise, I'm kind of at a loss, and not having a Miroku version to take apart, can't offer much more help. Somewhere you should be able to find a detailed diagram/exploded drawing of the action showing the relationship of the parts. You just might find one on-line, or if you visit a local gun store that carries these rifles perhaps there might be one included it the box of a new rifle that they'd let you look at or Xerox. Anyway, it's a puzzle, and I'd sure like to hear about how and why it turns out.

    DG

  10. #10
    Boolit Master pietro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Der Gebirgsjager View Post

    Further, the Miroku people seem obsessed with hammer safety, what with the rebounding hammer, etc. in their redesigns

    FWIW, Miroku makes firearms under contract for firms like Browning, Winchester, etc, to each client's specs as outlined in their contract - and not as they please.

    When Miroku was making "Browning" 1886/86/92/etc rifles, they were straight-forward clones of the original Winchester design.

    When Miroku was making "Winchester" 1886/86/92/etc rifles, safeties that were never in the original designs were included by the current "Winchester" lawyers.


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    Experience is a wonderful thing - It lets you recognize a mistake, when you make it again.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check