BP bullet shapes

[indian joe]

joe,
does nick harvey still live at hillend?
he might not even be alive now.
keep safe,
bruce.

Bruce
400yrd target from this morning (with the 500 LEE) - 4 shot group is ok for me - spread is about on my 2MOA standard - but a little crosswind left to right and I lost the fifth shot about a foot further right - thought my hold was good - this the kind of thing you are talkin about? (have a mate gonna bring me a handfull of lyman postell tomorrow - will give me some comparison) - shot with 1876 Uberti and 1 blow between shots.

[John Boy]

I've shot many of my 45-70 molds to 1000 yds and consider these from excellent to average in descending order for accuracy
1* PJ Creedmoor - Theodore Mini Groove - RCBS 82084
2* Lyman 457123 Postell
3* Lyman 457667
4* Ideal 457125
5* Ideal 457124
6* Lee 457-500-3R

[BRUCE MOULDS]

joe,
here are some wind deflection figures for my 40/72.wind square on (90 degrees). also called full value.
5mph - 3.2 moa
10 mph - 6.5 moa
15 mph - 9.5 moa
20 mph - 12.5 moa
25 mph - 16 moa
1 moa approx 4" at 400 yds.
these figures are approximate but close.
1, 5, 7, and 11 o'clock you halve these numbers for the same wind speed.
2, 4 , 8 and 10 o'clock is 3/4 to 7/8 of full value.
your group contains too few shots to really give any meaningful stats.
personally i would say that 2 moa is quite good for an 1876, and not bad if you did it all the time with a single shot target rifle in reasonable conditions.
i prefer to shoot groups on about a consistent 5 moa full condition, as there is less light bending and better aiming.
the target appears more near more often then to where it really is, giving potentially better groups.
when the wind blows from the left, th target image moves a little to the right but not much.
a bit like it goes upward on a boil but less.
there are so many things to take into account that it is not easy, but that is the satisfaction when you get it.
if you can use windflags, it helps to shoot on a condition if possible.
keep safe,
bruce.

[indian joe]

joe,
here are some wind deflection figures for my 40/72.wind square on (90 degrees). also called full value.
5mph - 3.2 moa
10 mph - 6.5 moa
15 mph - 9.5 moa
20 mph - 12.5 moa
25 mph - 16 moa
1 moa approx 4" at 400 yds.
these figures are approximate but close.
1, 5, 7, and 11 o'clock you halve these numbers for the same wind speed.
2, 4 , 8 and 10 o'clock is 3/4 to 7/8 of full value.
your group contains too few shots to really give any meaningful stats.
personally i would say that 2 moa is quite good for an 1876, and not bad if you did it all the time with a single shot target rifle in reasonable conditions.
i prefer to shoot groups on about a consistent 5 moa full condition, as there is less light bending and better aiming.
the target appears more near more often then to where it really is, giving potentially better groups.
when the wind blows from the left, th target image moves a little to the right but not much.
a bit like it goes upward on a boil but less.
there are so many things to take into account that it is not easy, but that is the satisfaction when you get it.
if you can use windflags, it helps to shoot on a condition if possible.
keep safe,
bruce.

Bruce
Thanks for the info
I was hesitant about shooting heavy boolits in my 76 but a feller posted pictures of a winchester advert for 450 grain 90 grain powder longrange loads from back in the old days so I figured if an original would take that safely my uberti should eat it - I had made a couple little experiments with the LEE boolit lathe turned back to about 390 grains (minus the bottom driving band and one lube groove) - loaded out on the lands that looked to shoot nice - one thing lead to another and here we are . The uberti is fun - at 8lb the sharps is not - thats a winter project.
2 MOA was my target - thats about the best my eyesight will do, if everything else is in tune - maybe the eyes are less of a hindrance than I think - learn to use what ya got hey!
I agree that I need more lead on target to draw serious conclusions but its a start. Am shooting at home so still figuring out a ""range"" that works - 500 yards with clear view of the target and a safe backdrop is not as easy as I imagined.
Anyway I appreciate the help.

[indian joe]

joe,

personally i would say that 2 moa is quite good for an 1876, and not bad if you did it all the time with a single shot target rifle in reasonable conditions.
i prefer to shoot groups on about a consistent 5 moa full condition, as there is less light bending and better aiming.
the target appears more near more often then to where it really is, giving potentially better groups.
when the wind blows from the left, th target image moves a little to the right but not much.
a bit like it goes upward on a boil but less.
there are so many things to take into account that it is not easy, but that is the satisfaction when you get it.
if you can use windflags, it helps to shoot on a condition if possible.
keep safe,
bruce.

Bruce
What do you think of the CBE postell mould ? Is it a worthwhile contender for a 45/70 (I can bring myself to clean between shots if that is whats needed )
cheers
Joe

[BRUCE MOULDS]

joe,
the best target accuracy comes from absolutely consistent barrel condition, and that comes from a wiping regime that needs to be established.
this of course does not suit hunting or certain disciplines.
things to take into account re any bullet are your twist, chamber and barrel dimensions, and does it function in the rifle mechanism.
that said, the postell design was a good one in the day, and so still should be.
looking at modern versions of it, compared to old ones, there seems to be some prostitution of the original design.
as best as i can see from pictures, the old ones had a nose shape thatstarted to move away from contact with the barrel straight away.
the nose base was less than bore diameter to allow chambering dirty.
this was good for that purpose, but some had problems with the nose being unsupported and going off centre on firing.
guys either hated it or loved it.
it might well have been designed for use in 45/70, and if not the 45/80, which had a 2.4" case.
modern versions seem to have gone for a bore riding nose, which will sooner or later give leading as they bump into the rifling.
the cbe mould looks like the old ones in shape, but it is hard to tell without seeing its bullets in the flesh, and also measuring them.
best bullets come from a mould which casts to the required size.
sizing bullets is a good way to get off balance bullets from bending etc.
best accuracy comes from a bullet cast to the size that slides into fired cases.
keep safe,
bruce.

[BRUCE MOULDS]

joe,
just for interest, what chamber is that 1876?
keep safe,
bruce.

[indian joe]

joe,
just for interest, what chamber is that 1876?
keep safe,
bruce.

Bruce - its not the so called Uberti chamber
Dimensions below as near as I can measure
45/75 1918 winchester drawing, mine
Rim Thickness 58-62 thou 66-68
Rim to start of shoulder .970 .982
Rim to start of neck 1.270 1.282
Case OAL 1.890 1.790 (short brass) 1.950 (long brass)
Body Diameter at base .562-564 .558
Body diameter at shoulder .552 .554
Neck inside fired case .459
Neck outside fired case .483
My brass will seat a 405 grain solid to correct functional OAL without the base protruding into powder space (just) the "Uberti chamber" will not do that
I cut a bunch of brass short in order to crimp correctly for smokeless loading and then lost most of another tenth in fire forming (had thought the brass would move forwards as the shoulder formed but instead it shrunk) - The long brass above is once fired and I am aiming to get some cut to full chamber length if I can do that - I shot 40 of these the other day and thought they went better than my shorter brass that is well fire formed - dont know - just a hunch.
I have not shot smokeless in this rifle yet and at this point wonder if I ever will - did use some duplex (5 grains of 4227) at the start to utilise some ditrty burning chinese powder.
Have just cracked 1500fps a couple of times with 70 grains of FFF under the 335 grain boolit - 75 grains of good powder in this case would be a smokin good load if it shot straight.
Have not sized a fired case for this rifle yet - not neck sized even - just put a light crimp on to hold the boolit in place

[john.k]

mention of the Lee 405 HB...is the shape any good for say 500yds?..I was planning to get another and cut out the grooves to make a paper patch bullet for a 577/450.Alex Henry.

[indian joe]

mention of the Lee 405 HB...is the shape any good for say 500yds?..I was planning to get another and cut out the grooves to make a paper patch bullet for a 577/450.Alex Henry.

John I modified mine - milled a bit off the nose to make it safer in the tube magazine and then took out the hollow base - came back neat at 405 grains - the Uberti 76 seems to like it but I have not shot past 200yards with that boolit. With the nose left as is/was and the grooves filled in it would gettin up in weight - worth a try anyway !?

[rfd]

conjecture and testing/trialling is one thing, but there are already known good long range bullet moulds that make the selection process lots easier. typically, the better and more consistent currently offered moulds will not be cheap, either.

for me, that lee hollow base is a dog for target accuracy and not worth messing around with unless it's for a trapdoor or lever gun for under 200 yards. in fact, the only .45 lee mould i've found some value in is their 340 grain flat nose greaser that i load with trail boss for the kids to shoot.

imho, the tom ellis accuratemolds aluminum moulds are excellent and cheap, and i use 3 of them for 200 to 500 yards with good accuracy and match success. and then there's the jim brannon BACO really long range money moulds - top shelf all the way, and not cheap.

[indian joe]

conjecture and testing/trialling is one thing, but there are already known good long range bullet moulds that make the selection process lots easier. typically, the better and more consistent currently offered moulds will not be cheap, either.

for me, that lee hollow base is a dog for target accuracy and not worth messing around with unless it's for a trapdoor or lever gun for under 200 yards. in fact, the only .45 lee mould i've found some value in is their 340 grain flat nose greaser that i load with trail boss for the kids to shoot.

imho, the tom ellis accuratemolds aluminum moulds are excellent and cheap, and i use 3 of them for 200 to 500 yards with good accuracy and match success. and then there's the jim brannon BACO really long range money moulds - top shelf all the way, and not cheap.

Interesting !!! I have several LEE molds and the one you pick is the one out of em all that I do not like ....... Bought it to use in the 76 with smokeless loads - wanted a different shape so I would never get my smokeless and black rounds mixed up - never went there - that 340 is dead set useless with blackpowder - the 405 HB is a good blackpowder boolit for hunting and general shorter range stuff - I think not many fellers would be able to outshoot that boolit with the issued barrel sights to 200 yards.
Aussies pay double plus and wait six weeks to two months for stuff you can order and have in your hand in a week - so its natural we will look to use what we got and to alter and innovate stuff in order to save a buck (that can even be fun when it works out) - if we could get prompt delivery and no hassles the price hurdle would be much less daunting - we have one custom mold maker here doing good work at reasonable price but there are limits
This is not a whine - just a little bit of an explanation why some of us fool around with stuff that is apparently beneath your dignity.

[rfd]

Interesting !!! I have several LEE molds and the one you pick is the one out of em all that I do not like ....... Bought it to use in the 76 with smokeless loads - wanted a different shape so I would never get my smokeless and black rounds mixed up - never went there - that 340 is dead set useless with blackpowder - the 405 HB is a good blackpowder boolit for hunting and general shorter range stuff - I think not many fellers would be able to outshoot that boolit with the issued barrel sights to 200 yards.
Aussies pay double plus and wait six weeks to two months for stuff you can order and have in your hand in a week - so its natural we will look to use what we got and to alter and innovate stuff in order to save a buck (that can even be fun when it works out) - if we could get prompt delivery and no hassles the price hurdle would be much less daunting - we have one custom mold maker here doing good work at reasonable price but there are limits
This is not a whine - just a little bit of an explanation why some of us fool around with stuff that is apparently beneath your dignity.

not at all "beneath my dignity", just stuff i've tried and has been either marginal or failed. it's all subjective stuff, for sure, and why it's important to sometimes see for yerself. and i do agree - the lee 340 is also a dog for me with a full bp load, but decent with trail boss at 50 to near 200 yards. for light and very accurate bp loads i look to the accuratemolds 45-405P with 60 grains of 1-1/2f and a 6 wad stack.

i hear ya on shipping from the states to oz. i've waited weeks and weeks for ball moulds to come from england. it is what it is, we all do the best we can.

[Lead pot]

There is no dignity decision when deciding a bullet mould when your a serious competitive shooter. If one will only punch holes through paper at 50 or 100 yards then most anything that will pass through the barrel will punch holes through the paper.
I look at it this way. Buying a low cost production mould is not saving money if it does not do what you expect for accuracy. The cost of the lead/tin/powder/primers you send down range trying to make that bullet hit soon adds to the cost of that mould and most generally that mould ends up in a drawer and you start looking for a replacement. Yes the custom moulds will run twice or three times to a over the counter mould but you will have that mould build that matches your rifling twist and profile you like.
I admit that I don't have the Lee moulds short of a round ball mould and that has not seen the light for many years but I see them on the tables at gun shows when I scan the tables and I call them leaverrights (leaver right there) because the way they are build and their small aluminum blocks that will over heat in short order.
Lee does have some very fine tools and I have and use them but their moulds are not one of them.

[rfd]

lee is also my go-to for most ball moulds.

[BRUCE MOULDS]

the first pre requisite for a long range shooter is to jettison all dignity.
if you don't, the targets will strip it off you in droves.
that is whatever bullet you use.
this is not a sport for the instant gratification mob.
keep safe,
bruce.

[indian joe]

not at all "beneath my dignity", just stuff i've tried and has been either marginal or failed. it's all subjective stuff, for sure, and why it's important to sometimes see for yerself. and i do agree - the lee 340 is also a dog for me with a full bp load, but decent with trail boss at 50 to near 200 yards. for light and very accurate bp loads i look to the accuratemolds 45-405P with 60 grains of 1-1/2f and a 6 wad stack.

i hear ya on shipping from the states to oz. i've waited weeks and weeks for ball moulds to come from england. it is what it is, we all do the best we can.

yah - (dignity) that was a poor choice of words there - but I bought ya a beer to make up fer it - I've been all over these forums (since you fellers popped my bubble on that LEE mold) searching for the magic boolit (mold) yeah even read that article said there werent any such thing - just when I think I got the right one picked out - up pops some dude says NAH!! that one dont work - you need this one here - get the money boolit - NO - get a snover - NO - get a postell - ??????????? The money boolit and Postell name tags have been hooked to so many different designs its difficult to find the realone anymore - I have some Lyman boolits to test but seriously looking at the Saeco 745 at this point.(if I buy a mold)

[Gunlaker]

Indian Joe, if you want to find out which bullets work well then I'd suggest looking at equipment lists for big matches, and see what the top three finishers are using. Often the advice you get on the internet will be quite different than what the match winners are using.

Of course the bullet needs to work well with your rifle's chamber and twist, but that's not too tricky to get sorted out as long as the chamber has reasonable dimensions.

Chris.

[indian joe]

[QUOTE=Lead pot;4373981]There is no dignity decision when deciding a bullet mould when your a serious competitive shooter. If one will only punch holes through paper at 50 or 100 yards then most anything that will pass through the barrel will punch holes through the paper.

hmm that all depends whether you want a splatter pattern or a decent group - some of those 100 yard 'punch holes through paper' fellers are just as serious competitive shooters as anyone else about the place

[rfd]

at least some of the off-the-shelf moulds by lee, lyman, rcbs, saeco, etc. can be out of round as this is the nature of industry production. i found that out with a lyman postell. having a custom mould built for you means that will be unlikely, and if so as you check yer first castings, you can deal direct with the mould maker.