BP bullet shapes

[Knarley]

I did not want to hijack the thread on speed and long range so I figure I'd ask separately. The thread which is very interesting, and a "bit" over my head has me wondering about what I'm shooting, as far as projectile is. I don't have a stable of custom moulds, I only have a few off the shelf ones.
I have 2 Lyman moulds, #1 is a 457125 500 gr. round nose, the #2 would be a #457132 535gr. Postell. And the oldest mould is a LEE 459-500-3R which is a 500 gr. Pointed Round Nose. What can you tell me about these? I'd really appreciate some input, besides they are junk and start over.

[Don McDowell]

The postel is a good bullet, and can work well to 1000yds, but works particularly well at midrange and silhouette. The Lyman government bullet will do the same as the postel ,but likely require a few more minutes of elevation. The Lee 5003r shoots ok to a couple hundred yards, after that it's a **** shoot.

[sharpsguy]

Don pretty well sums it up. The Govt. bullet is a better hunting bullet than the Postell, but the Postell has a bit of an advantage when you get waaay out there.

[Knarley]

So is the LEE too pointy, or have too much nose? Just wondering why it isn't all that good. I'm not trying to argue, and I'm not bound and determined to use it. Just trying to learn a little here.
Thanks guys,
KB

[Don McDowell]

I think the 3 wide lube grooves on that Lee bullet put to much of the weight in the nose of it. It shoots well to 200, but after that it gets into trouble if there's any wind to speak of.

[rfd]

i found the lee 500-3r not a good design for 200 yds and out, at least for me ... and yes, too much pointed nose methinks.

if the mould is good, those lyman bullet shapes are both classics and quite worthy, IMO.

tailor the cartridge and bullet to the task.

[BRUCE MOULDS]

i have no experience with the lee bullet, but it sounds like there is a serious stability issue with it.
stability problens manifest themselves in several ways.
the bullet fails to reach the target, and accuracy diminishes rapidly as range increases.
wind shear will take advantage of this and put the final nail in the coffin.
generally a heavy in front bullet will be more stable in the same twist than a heavy to the rear one.
this is how a minie and a rifled slug work.
so if such a bullet is showing instability there are 2 potentials. one is seriously bad airflow reducing dynamic stability, and the other is something causing the centre of mass to be off the axis of the bore.
bending noses can do this.
interestingly the old govt bullet remained stable to the extreme range it could be fired to.
the sandy hook tests proved this and you can google that, with pictures of rods stuck in bullet holes in the ground at some amazing angles.
keep safe,
bruce.

[indian joe]

i have no experience with the lee bullet, but it sounds like there is a serious stability issue with it.
stability problens manifest themselves in several ways.
the bullet fails to reach the target, and accuracy diminishes rapidly as range increases.
wind shear will take advantage of this and put the final nail in the coffin.
generally a heavy in front bullet will be more stable in the same twist than a heavy to the rear one.
this is how a minie and a rifled slug work.
so if such a bullet is showing instability there are 2 potentials. one is seriously bad airflow reducing dynamic stability, and the other is something causing the centre of mass to be off the axis of the bore.
bending noses can do this.
interestingly the old govt bullet remained stable to the extreme range it could be fired to.
the sandy hook tests proved this and you can google that, with pictures of rods stuck in bullet holes in the ground at some amazing angles.
keep safe,
bruce.

Bruce
I was an early fan of the LEE 500-3-R - I wanted a mold that would shoot a decent string without cleaning between shots and didnt need fooling around with lube cookies under it - had been frustrated in that with several roundnose and a postell mold - fouling out after three or four shots - so when I saw that first LEE mold at a shoot I grabbed it - first thing that happened I took a good 100yards off my elevation setting with the same powder charge -- at that point almost everybody involved in longrange was shooting blunt nose boolits and cleaning between shots as a necessity. I liked the mold and bought another to speed up casting (my son shoots a roller in 45/70 as well) - the LEE mold would get hot pretty easy - well - first casting session and the two molds were making different boolits - the base band on one was much longer thn the other and weight was maybe ten grains different - I probably could have milled one of them and fixed it but went ahead and just sorted the boolits - these for the sharps those for the roller. Both these molds dropped boolits of good diameter.
Then the company updated the mold to newer style (much improved the location pins and etc) so I ordered a double cavity one of those - that mold was way out of spec - 20 grains lighter again and way small - boolits dropping out at 453 !!! - The company offered replacement but freight from downunder would have ate any benefit so I elected to keep the hardware and salvage handles out of it - left it a year and ordered again - by that time the problem was fixed and the new mold is in spec - but they have streamlined the nose some more - its a more racy looking boolit than the first two molds were and I wonder in light of this discussion maybe its too much of a good thing. Along the way there was a lot of negative stuff on forums and etc about that boolit design - most of which I ignored because I thought mine was doing ok (anytime I do my bit that rifle hits where its sposed to) -
heres a few comments / questions - (from a novice middle ranger - 500yards a couple times a year and maybe 700 once in a blue moon)
1)I have shot a good number of those big slugs and never seen one make anything but a clean neat round hole in the target - wouldnt there be ugly holes if there was stability issues?
2) I would bet London to a Brick that if that exact same mold came from a custom maker with a $250 price tag there would be a whole lot LESS adverse comment about it (not saying some or any one of these guys are wrong - just making a comment on how human nature works)
3) LUBE!!! if you dont get those big lube grooves chock full evenly all round that boolit - its not gonna shoot as well as it otherwise should.
4) when I lined up at my first longrange comp in a few years - lo and behold - half the crew is shooting boolits that look a lot like my old LEE 3 R - I havent run the calipers over them but the money boolit dont look all that diferent to what I shoot ? That pointy nose style has got kind of popular - whats the deal with that - just a fad or what?
5)There is a video on utube of a feller shooting the LEE at 1500?yards - I thought he was doin ok - but then ok by me might be **** for you blokes too - have you seen that one and whats your call on it?

[BRUCE MOULDS]

joe,
do i detect a man from down under?
that bullet seems to have people who love it and people who hate it and nothing in between.
like i said, i have never tried it.
if it works that is a good thing and if you are happy with it go forth and enjoy.
the true money nose is not that pointy, having an meplat of 50 to 55% calibre diameter, and an ogive about 1.6 calibres long.
some of the modern knockoffs look more like a semi spitzer, and are money in name only.
keep safe,
bruce.

[Edward]

Bruce
I was an early fan of the LEE 500-3-R - I wanted a mold that would shoot a decent string without cleaning between shots and didnt need fooling around with lube cookies under it - had been frustrated in that with several roundnose and a postell mold - fouling out after three or four shots - so when I saw that first LEE mold at a shoot I grabbed it - first thing that happened I took a good 100yards off my elevation setting with the same powder charge -- at that point almost everybody involved in longrange was shooting blunt nose boolits and cleaning between shots as a necessity. I liked the mold and bought another to speed up casting (my son shoots a roller in 45/70 as well) - the LEE mold would get hot pretty easy - well - first casting session and the two molds were making different boolits - the base band on one was much longer thn the other and weight was maybe ten grains different - I probably could have milled one of them and fixed it but went ahead and just sorted the boolits - these for the sharps those for the roller. Both these molds dropped boolits of good diameter.
Then the company updated the mold to newer style (much improved the location pins and etc) so I ordered a double cavity one of those - that mold was way out of spec - 20 grains lighter again and way small - boolits dropping out at 453 !!! - The company offered replacement but freight from downunder would have ate any benefit so I elected to keep the hardware and salvage handles out of it - left it a year and ordered again - by that time the problem was fixed and the new mold is in spec - but they have streamlined the nose some more - its a more racy looking boolit than the first two molds were and I wonder in light of this discussion maybe its too much of a good thing. Along the way there was a lot of negative stuff on forums and etc about that boolit design - most of which I ignored because I thought mine was doing ok (anytime I do my bit that rifle hits where its sposed to) -
heres a few comments / questions - (from a novice middle ranger - 500yards a couple times a year and maybe 700 once in a blue moon)
1)I have shot a good number of those big slugs and never seen one make anything but a clean neat round hole in the target - wouldnt there be ugly holes if there was stability issues?
2) I would bet London to a Brick that if that exact same mold came from a custom maker with a $250 price tag there would be a whole lot LESS adverse comment about it (not saying some or any one of these guys are wrong - just making a comment on how human nature works)
3) LUBE!!! if you dont get those big lube grooves chock full evenly all round that boolit - its not gonna shoot as well as it otherwise should.
4) when I lined up at my first longrange comp in a few years - lo and behold - half the crew is shooting boolits that look a lot like my old LEE 3 R - I havent run the calipers over them but the money boolit dont look all that diferent to what I shoot ? That pointy nose style has got kind of popular - whats the deal with that - just a fad or what?
5)There is a video on utube of a feller shooting the LEE at 1500?yards - I thought he was doin ok - but then ok by me might be **** for you blokes too - have you seen that one and whats your call on it?

I"ve watched that video several times and he proved that boolit arrived stable everytime he sent one off ,which was the point . Have that mold myself ,so when I fail to hit my target that"s another excuse I can"t use

[Don McDowell]

Some folks confuse bullet stability with a key holing bullet. If you've been around long range shooting enough, and you have good optics , you'll see a bullet that has lost stability going towards the target looking like it's riding a spiral staircase.
That Lee bullet will not hold a group past 300 yards if there's any wind at all, due to it's loosing stability. Proved it many many times to my own trials and tribulations several years ago. When Lee first brought that bullet out several silhouette shooters jumped on it and found out it was pretty costly to even buy a pig with it, and they couldn't even begin to lay down rams.
The Lyman postel and the Saeco 645 bullet are both very good bullets for the 45-70 from production moulds.
Another good bullet out to 800 yards is the RCBS 82084 bullet, but it starts to fall apart past that distance in the 45-70. I have not tried it in either the 45-90 or 45-110.

[Gunlaker]

Indian Joe you are probably right that if the bullet came from a custom mold maker that people would like it more . I probably fall into the group of people who think like that. When I first started casting I used mass produced molds. I do find that the custom molds will produce a more perfect bullet.

When I started shooting black powder rifles seriously I pretty much looked at what the most successful match shooters were using. For quite a while the various "money" bullets have been in the top 3 in most places. I know a few people use the prolate bullets which seem to shoot quite well. I have a couple of those.

I think I have seen the video that you guys are referring to. I don't think you can really draw any conclusions from it, as to whether that bullet is stable or not. A better test would be paper at 1000 yards so you can see if the holes are clean and circular.

I personally wouldn't choose that design for long range as I'd rather shoot a heavier, lower drag, bullet.

Chris.

[Don McDowell]

That guy made another video using the same bullet and it had the same problem at 800 yards as those of us that have tried to campaign that bullet. One shot will be several feet to yards high, the next off to the left or right the next way low,, and so the story goes.
Another problem with that Lee bullet is the blocks, they don't have enough meat around them to keep from heating up and not warping when you sit down to cast enough bullets to do any good for going to a match. It's a fine bullet for the occasionally shooter that shoots maybe 50 rounds a month or so.

[17nut]

[Knarley]

And here all along I was thinking oh, pointy nose= cuts thru air good. Oh, big grease groves=good. Looks cool= good.
That's why you are the masters, I am student.
KB

[indian joe]

joe,
do i detect a man from down under?
that bullet seems to have people who love it and people who hate it and nothing in between.
like i said, i have never tried it.
if it works that is a good thing and if you are happy with it go forth and enjoy.
the true money nose is not that pointy, having an meplat of 50 to 55% calibre diameter, and an ogive about 1.6 calibres long.
some of the modern knockoffs look more like a semi spitzer, and are money in name only.
keep safe,
bruce.

Yeah down under is right.

That 500 LEE mold has had serious issues as it evolved - and I am not talking about cutter wear either - somebody stuffed up seriously in equipment setup or subsequent operation of it - quite enough to make people hate it if they got one of the dodgy ones.

So it sounds like the true money design is closer to that early "Postell" I had - and my early LEE is quite different in shape than the later (your semi spitzer description fits) -- you gotta look for the difference but a more rounded profile to the point and a nice curve to it rather than the more straight spitzer profile - i reckon it would resist setback more.

I am waiting on some decent weather to test this boolit in my uberti 76 and planning to do that at increments from 200 to 600 - am happy with the way it shoots from my sharps at 500 but have not done the in between ranges - so Ill be on the lopkout for any midrange nonsense - if my shoulder holds up ok might also shoot the sharps in the same test - anything interesting I will post. I have relegated myself to plinker status in this game as I am not prepared to stump up the 6K it would take to make me fully competitive - too much other fun stuff going on in he shooting sphere is most of that.
Thanks for your replies
Joe

[BRUCE MOULDS]

17 nut,
that graph just shows how drag, most if it on the nose varies quite quickly before during and after the transonic zone.
many bullets just cannot cope with that and wobble or tumble fully.
the centre of mass remains the same, but the centre of pressure muves back, and the forward again, but not fully forward.
combine this with shockwaves flying off many parts of the bullet from nose to grease grooves during this and it is wonder any bullet can do anything.
you can virtuall use a mirror image of that graph to represent what happens to b.c. in the same zone.
higher drag = lower b.c. and vice versa.
if a guy is using the lee bullet o.k. good luck to him, but there are much better shapes out there.
its shape is far more suited to supersonic flight.
as chris says, the true test is on paper at all ranges likely to be used, against a proven performer.
you can compare group size and vert quantitively.
joe,
your ability to shoot dirty with that bullet interests me.
please tell more.
where i live in oz i have designed and bought moulds for shooting dirty experiments, but am yet to find one that will function in the drier months with all sorts of lubes.
keep safe,
bruce.

[indian joe]

17 nut,
that graph just shows how drag, most if it on the nose varies quite quickly before during and after the transonic zone.
many bullets just cannot cope with that and wobble or tumble fully.
the centre of mass remains the same, but the centre of pressure muves back, and the forward again, but not fully forward.
combine this with shockwaves flying off many parts of the bullet from nose to grease grooves during this and it is wonder any bullet can do anything.
you can virtuall use a mirror image of that graph to represent what happens to b.c. in the same zone.
higher drag = lower b.c. and vice versa.
if a guy is using the lee bullet o.k. good luck to him, but there are much better shapes out there.
its shape is far more suited to supersonic flight.
as chris says, the true test is on paper at all ranges likely to be used, against a proven performer.
you can compare group size and vert quantitively.
joe,
your ability to shoot dirty with that bullet interests me.
please tell more.
where i live in oz i have designed and bought moulds for shooting dirty experiments, but am yet to find one that will function in the drier months with all sorts of lubes.
keep safe,
bruce.

Bruce
I am in the southern wheat belt of NSW, 17 inch rainfall, (sometimes! - we have had 12 inches since end of october 2016!!)
Shooting dirty - I been pretty darn stubborn about this - not gonna argue with anyone that you might get a bit better target cleaning between shots BUT at the same time we should be able to shoot a decent string without fouling out and /or leading up the bore and we should be able to do it and maintain reasonable accuracy (good enough for hunting at the least). Not asking a whole lot - the old timers were able to do it (or were they?)
1) We need enough (suitable) lube to keep the fouling soft as we shoot - if the boolit cant carry it then we got to fool around with lube cookies and extra wads - takes up good powder space and is a PITA at the loading bench. I ruled that out as something the old timers would not have messed with.
2) cleanest burning powder we can get -- I have this licked - probably said too much about it already on this forum - in Aus we have the choice of Wano or Swiss or ......
I dont rate Wano clean enough and am too tight to pay for Swiss so ........I got some willow trees on the dam bank - plan "B" on powder
5 grains of 4227 under the black charge will take care of dirty powder but its not allowed in some matches (all matches - I dont know?)
I had no luck with shooting my sharps dirty until I got both of these in place. I had a CBE postell mold I sold - a LEE 457-450 (that one was a neat bore rider) a couple others and sample boolits from mates ... three - four - five shots = fouled out and lead in the bore - son and I shot 25 on the trot with it at Hillend with the LEE and it cleaned slick and easy.
In my uberti 1876 I am shooting the LEE 405HB (to get those same big lube grooves!) have taken the hollow base out of it and flattened the nose a bit (milled it some) - shot the 76 at our loal club last weekend 40 rounds in strings of 3, 4, or 5 - I had made a tang sight for it and messing round looking for settings - all shot at 50yards - the shooting is nothing special here, just rested my elbows on the bench standing up - but it got better NOT worse as we progressed - have posted a pic of that target, the last ten went in a nice group and the gun cleaned quick and easy - no sign of leading. Had not bore sighted this at all just screwed the sight on and went shooting (had two leftover boxes of fireform rounds to use up) I mucked around a fair bit here holding off with a circle front sight until I got the hang of it but at the end 8 of the last ten cut - strung a little vertical because of the magazine - blow tube between each string of shots but not between individual rounds - that Uberti has a pretty nice bore .
So both these guns is just good clean powder, plenty of lube, (I use beeswax and neatsfoot oil), milk carton wad over the powder, weighed charges, blow tube when and where required ------nuthin fancy here! - I think you have to use your noggin a bit with a blow tube - can easily do too much. Both 28 inch barrels helps too.

[BRUCE MOULDS]

joe,
does nick harvey still live at hillend?
he might not even be alive now.
keep safe,
bruce.

[indian joe]

joe,
does nick harvey still live at hillend?
he might not even be alive now.
keep safe,
bruce.

Bruce
never met him and only been doing Hillend spasmodically - forum quotes had him still alive in 2017 but 86 yrs old then - that type of country keeps people alive a long time if they keep active in it (and he does/did by all accounts)