Round Ball loading the 12ga.

[missionary5155]

Good morning
Had no idea the 210 and 212 had such a bolt lift difference.
Those 4 legged sticks are interesting … But I think I will stick with the simplicity of my old cross sticks.

[longbow]

Those 4 legs should be nice and stable but... it looks like if you let go of one or both ends at the top the whole thing would open up and lay flat on the ground. It appears from what I see that the sticks are simply hinged at each end so unless there is a stop I'd want a tether at the top to they can't open further than the gun is long then anything in between would be good.

However, at the price these things are I have to think I'm missing something. Maybe that is all taken care of.

I like the idea and they fold up nice and small so pretty handy and easy to carry.

I get a chuckle out of all the pics with guys shooting guns with suppressors. In Canada suppressors are totally illegal and I'd almost bet you'd be shot on sight as a terrorist if you had one (maybe a bit of an exaggeration). Canadian gun laws are needlessly restrictive.

Longbow

[fralic76]

...In Canada suppressors are totally illegal and I'd almost bet you'd be shot on sight as a terrorist if you had one (maybe a bit of an exaggeration). Canadian gun laws are needlessly restrictive.

Longbow

So true.

Sent from my SM-G955W using Tapatalk

[missionary5155]

Greetings Politics 101.... be as control driven as the populace will suffer without throwing bottles full of gasoline. Maybe that was Lenin ??? ILLinois is not far behind Canada.

[centershot]

Greetings Politics 101.... be as control driven as the populace will suffer without throwing bottles full of gasoline. Maybe that was Lenin ??? ILLinois is not far behind Canada.

Yeah, neither is the Peepels Socoalist Republik of Nu Jork!

[centershot]

But, moving along, and back on topic......Longbow, you have remarked several times about using cloth to "patch" a RB loaded into a shotcup/wad. Would you be kind rnough to list those components? After reading your posts earlier today I started loading some RB's similarly. I had loaded three before the thought occurred to me to measure thicknesses! EEEK! .662" RB + .024" patching + .060" wad petal =.746"!!! EEEEKKK!!! I'm thinking that I wont shoot those! The most open tube I have is IC, so .720"? A .662" RB in a 12S3 wad with .060" petal thickness gives .722" so I should be good to go. I have tried several different wads in the past but this was my first go with the Federal 12S3. I'm curious what you used in your loads as these components would be oversize in even a cylinder boe gun.

[gpidaho]

centershot; There are a lot of things I don't know about loading slugs, rb's and buckshot, a big reason for starting this thread. I will say that I'm beginning to suspect a few things and I believe you are on the right track. Measurements add up and math doesn't lie. I've made a chart using twelve different wads, measuring them as best I can on the petals at the spot where the RB makes contact and comparing the total to the shotguns (chokes) points of constriction. So far the largest diameter I've sent down range was .007 over on a cylinder choke. This was with a soft lead alloy and worked just fine. I'll be trying them next outing through a Carlson's rifled choke that is -.010. The larger RB's don't use a wad with petals, instead using gas seals and brush wads. I believe this is where I would patch up a ball to better fit the restriction as you wouldn't want the ball loose in the bore. Gp

[Ballistics in Scotland]

You wouldn't. But the problem of patching the ball is a little more than it is with a muzzle-loader, in which the ball tightens the patch around itself as it goes down, which suggests less danger of being blown out of it on the way up. Wrapping some kind of tape all around the ball (unless perhaps it is only the microscopically thin Teflon plumber's tape) produces a risk of its not detaching quickly at the muzzle.

I agree with Longbow that the pressure spike caused by the narrow waist of a fairly soft lead ball hitting the choke, is not going to be great. I can't see it being any worse than an inch of shot, possibly buckshot, doing the same thing. But a choke constricts the shot pattern because it gives a slight inward movement to the individual shot, just before exit. Make the parallel section beyond the choke an inch or more long, and that inward motion is over. Make it short or non-existent, like a gun-butcher might achieve with a blunt pipe-cutter, and it works the best of all chokes for a while, and then enlarges through erosion.

If the ball is loose in the bore, it rides on one side, probably the bottom, and acquires that same movement as it strikes the choke. Unfortunately this is unlikely to be consistent.

[centershot]

I should have stated that these balls were cast of ACWW. So, in the case of an undersize ball in a shotcup; In it's journey down the bore the wad has "snugged up" to fit the bore due to gas pressure behind it, correct? In my case there's .010" difference between wad OD and bore ID, the effct of obturation should take care of that. I'm thinking the ball is pretty well centered when it meets the IC constriction. The proof is in the pudding as they say, I'll know when I get to the range tomorrow morning. I'm still hoping Longbow will provide his data, he must have used very thin patching.

[gpidaho]

centershot. As stated above I'm no expert on RBs or just how much a RB might bump up on firing but with the alloy being WW and the cushioning of the wad stack or shot cup, I personally doubt it bumps up much. Someone more knowledgeable should correct me if I'm wrong. I'd like to know also. Thanks to all on this thread. Gp

[centershot]

centershot. As stated above I'm no expert on RBs or just how much a RB might bump up on firing but with the alloy being WW and the cushioning of the wad stack or shot cup, I personally doubt it bumps up much. Someone more knowledgeable should correct me if I'm wrong. I'd like to know also. Thanks to all on this thread. Gp

Oh no, don't misunderstand, the ball isn't going to bump up at all! I was speaking only in reference to the plastic shotcup, at 10-12K psi it surely gets the bejeezers squished out of it!

[BAGTIC]

I have been shooting ACWW .735 for thirty years. The recovered ball show a definite belt but it is not very wide. I use a plastic cup wad with the finger cut back to below the ball's equator.

It is not necessary to load to high velocities as the drag of RB's is very high above about 1300 fps and you would be unnecessarily punishing yourself for extra velocity that will have vanished before it gets to the game. At subsonic velocities the 600 grain ball has good BC and still has good penetration, 7-8 inches of fir or about 3/16 " mild steel. I have never used more that 35 grain of Blue Dot and in my old M100 recoil is mild off the bench and the gun always functions flawlessly.

[Hogtamer]

Here's a thread from a while back where I loaded and shot some .678 round balls LB sent me. The 3" hulls are unnecessary, just what I got my hands on at the time.
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...gbow-s-678-RBs

[longbow]

Centershot:

Sorry, I have been away at an archery shoot for the last few days, just got back and saw this.

I'll measure the flannel i used. It was an old thin flannel shirt that coincidentally I still have some of. It is fairly thin cloth. The 0.662" RB's were not real tight in the shotcups in the bore. I didn't measure at the time but just tried and it seemed a good fit so I used them and got some good results.

Got to put my archery equipment away... and have a beer then I'll measure that old shirt with a micrometer and post thickness. I'll check shotcups too. Seems to me I used some old Pacific Veralite blue wads for those patched RB's. Still got a few of those too.

Longbow

[longbow]

Also, +1 for what BAGTIC said about 0.735" RB over Blue Dot. I settled on 36 to 38 grs. as any more became quite unpleasant to shoot! In fact 38 grs. is about as much "fun" as I want and I'm sure that big 'ol RB will leave a mark at the receiving end.

In a heavy barrel gun and with stock weights and with padded jacket I might consider moving up a few grains if T-rex was on the menu but other than that...

[Hogtamer]

You will get less pressure with higher velocity using Alliant Steel grn for grn of Bluedot. It will be less punishing too. More muzzle blast out of short barrel if that's an issue. Really good powder for the heavy loads like the .735 RB.

[longbow]

Okay... still working on that beer (1/2 litre though not a regular bottle) but I managed to measure:

- cloth is an old cotton shirt: thickness = 0.015" at first resistance of micrometer then down to 0.010" pretty easy but noticeable resistance after
- as cast diameter of RB's = 0.6625" to 0.6635"
- wad used (IIRC) Pacific Verelite blue (1 1/8 oz), petal thickness about ball equator height = 0.028" +/-
- other wads:
- Winchester pink ( 1 oz.) = 0.020" +/-
- Winchester white (1 1/8 oz.) = 0.025" +/-

The fit through my barrel which runs 0.733" bore is fairly tight with Pacific Verelite wad (almost too hard to push through with finger), snug slide fit with Winchester white ( 1 1/8 oz.) wad, barely snug with Winchester pink (1 oz.) wad.

Patching as I just did then into wad then into barrel allows some wrinkles so push fit varied some but if I put the wad into the barrel then patched ball into that fit was more consistent. I think patching into a hull would be similar... charge of powder, plastic wad, nitro card wad, COW, patched ball, crimp.

So for me: 0.663"+2x0.028"+2x0.010" = 0.739". I'm guessing that the cloth (and maybe plastic) compresses at the equator of the ball enough to allow that extra 0.006" resulting in snug slide fit.

Choose cloth thickness to suit your wad/ball/bore for snug fit.

I have only shot these through cylinder bore.

Longbow

[centershot]

Thank you Longbow! As I suspected, your "patch" thickness is much thinner than mine. I was going to use some pocket drill that I had purchased for patching my muzzle loader but it was too thick! These Federal 12S3 wads might be just the ticket though, the .662 ball is a pretty good fit. I'd hoped to shoot these loads on Monday but our local S.W.A.T. team had rented our range for the day. I'm going to shoot today if it doesn't pour down rain!

[centershot]

Rain cleared out about 9 am, beautiful sunny day! I wish my trial loads with the 12S3 was had been as beautiful, but no! Mangled wads and 12" groups at 50 yards. I loaded there the same as my previous success story, the Remington RP-12, with cornmeal filler. I used 1/4 tsp. in the 12S3 vs. 1/2 tsp in the RP-12. 1-1/8 oz wad vs 1-1/4 oz wad, no cards. This had worked very well in the RP-12 with groups of 4" at 50 yds. Not so with the Federal 12S3's! No fears, I have some 16 ga. cards coming, we'll try again!

[gpidaho]

LB and friends: I have to admit to being slow to catch on at times. I picked up a fifty cal. muzzle loader a short time back and have sent a few RBs down range with it. I feel I have a bit of understanding of the proper use of patches in the rifle. It seems to me that if RBs were patched in the same manner and sent from a smooth bore shotgun that there could be a problem exiting the shell crimp and entering the forcing cone. Perhaps pealing the patch from the ball before entering the bore proper or the choke for that matter. Could the ball be patched with the tag ends back into the wad and if so, how would one get it seated, reversed if you will, and still hold it tight to the ball? Thoughts? Gp