With high speed impact it's not necessary to become a liquid, the lead is soft enough to act as a liquid *relative to the brass and surface* under high heat and pressure. It's just deformation. Also note that the impact and pressure spike will cause an increase in heat through friction.Originally Posted by 303Guy
When you swage Copper, Brass, or Lead they don't melt; They sure deform, though! Same on bullet impact, inertia & the force of impact "swage" the heck out of the bullet...
In the video I was watching there was what appeared to be mostly plastic deformation but some impacts showed distinct liquid from the nose area of the bullet.
Any melting would be the conversion of kinetic energy into heat energy on impact. There would of course be considerable energy dissipation in deformation and transfer to the impacted plate. In the case of the 7.62 bullets striking the berm, there would be energy dissipation into the berm itself. I suppose the core only has to go plastic with some melting (or maybe none) to completely escape the jacket.
I have a picture of a boolit deformed on impacting sand. No melting, just plastic flow.
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Last edited by 303Guy; 05-23-2018 at 02:58 AM.
Rest In Peace My Son (01/06/1986 - 14/01/2014)
''Assume everything that moves is a human before identifying as otherwise''
heres what nosler says about bullets melting. Add to the fact its only in the barrel for one fifteeth of a second that as soon as it leaves the barrel its being cooled but the air makes it pretty tough to believe a core can melt. Considering it has to heat through the copper jacket and get the lead core up to over 600 degrees in a 1/15000 of a second makes it an impossibility. If it did youd see shotgun like patterns on a 25 yard target and your bullets wouldn't even pattern let alone group. Now were talking 3000 fps in a military rifle (06,308,223) Ive got a 220 swift that adds a good 1000 fps on to that and shoots sub moa at a 100 yards. Why aren't the bullets melting in that gun? My 7stw uses LOTS of powder and pushes 150s to 3500 plus fps. If anything was going to melt a bullet that gun would and it do shoots sub moa. Nothing but urban legends. Another good example is my 50 beo when I use lilgun. 10 rounds as fast as you can pull the trigger and you can about light a cigarette off the barrel but if I shoot 10 that fast and heat the barrel up reload and shoot a 3 shot group fairly quickly with lead bullets or plated it will easily do 1.5 inch at a 100 yards. I can see flame cutting do to gas pressures but bullets don't melt. I cant imagine the temps it would take to melt lead in 1/15000 of a second but it must rival the temp at ground zero of a hydrogen bomb!!!.The polymer tip contained in Nosler’s AccuBond®, AccuBond® LR, Ballistic Tip®, E-Tip® and Varmageddon® bullets have three main functions. First, it is meant to maintain sharp tip shape and not deform which is common on lead tipped bullets. Second, because of this sharp spitzer nose, the ballistic coefficient is improved for better long range accuracy. Third, the polymer tip acts as a wedge upon bullet impact which initiates expansion as the bullet penetrates; maximizing dependable and reliable would channel destruction. The tip does not melt away from the bullet while traveling through the barrel or before terminal impact. Based on a bullet traveling 3000 fps, it only takes 1/15000th of a second for a bullet to travel through a 24” barrel so there is little time for heat to affect the integrity of the bullet in any way. Most often, the tip “washes” away along with a partial amount of the nose of the bullet during expansion.
This is exactly right. The only way to melt the lead core would be to suddenly stop that bullet so that the kinetic energy is converted into heat energy. That assumes the bullet has enough kinetic energy after losses.
Rest In Peace My Son (01/06/1986 - 14/01/2014)
''Assume everything that moves is a human before identifying as otherwise''
I guess that molten lead core is the reason a 22-250 will shoot through steel quite easily.......
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I have a savage 22-250 with a 1in 12 twist that if I load 40 grain thin jackets and push em hard some of them will vaporize into a grey colored vapor about 20 feet in front of the muzzle. Thought I was shooting one hole groups there until I realized what was going on.
Most folks see a firearm as rifle, pistol, shotgun, ect.... I see a canvas.
it is not melting, it is the malleability of the lead. at high velocity the molecular cohesion of the lead molecules are not strong enough to prevent the kinetic energy from shifting them around. what appears to be a liquid state is more or less an illusion caused by the forces imparted upon the bullet as it strikes an object. in order for the lead to melt the entire core would have to end up over 621.4°F..
Been around the M16 since 1968. I am of the opinion Stoner got more right with his version than the Marine Corps fixed with the A2. In RVN it was a 6.5 pound rifle that would let you hit a man about as far as you had any business shooting at one. Back then M193 ball from a 20 inch barrel made some gruesome holes too. Now an M4 comes within ounces of weighing as much as an M1 Garand and the short barrel works against ammo the depends on velocity foremost for its effectiveness.
Despite all that, the deadliest thing in an infantry squad is the push to talk switch on the radio. You should not shoot anyone you can get someone else to shoot for you. Fire that rifle and you immediately announce to all that you are there. Call in indirect fire and any survivors will be left to puzzle out who, if any one, saw them and called it in, and where they could possibly be.
For the most part, I was pleased with the terminal effects of M377 canister.
Enjoyed your post. That is not the first time I have heard "You should not shoot anyone you can get someone else to shoot for you."Been around the M16 since 1968. I am of the opinion Stoner got more right with his version than the Marine Corps fixed with the A2. In RVN it was a 6.5 pound rifle that would let you hit a man about as far as you had any business shooting at one. Back then M193 ball from a 20 inch barrel made some gruesome holes too. Now an M4 comes within ounces of weighing as much as an M1 Garand and the short barrel works against ammo the depends on velocity foremost for its effectiveness.
Despite all that, the deadliest thing in an infantry squad is the push to talk switch on the radio. You should not shoot anyone you can get someone else to shoot for you. Fire that rifle and you immediately announce to all that you are there. Call in indirect fire and any survivors will be left to puzzle out who, if any one, saw them and called it in, and where they could possibly be.
For the most part, I was pleased with the terminal effects of M377 canister.
Which is what one can see in the video I watched. Thing is, the core has to stop dead for the kinetic energy to be converted to heat. A lead boolit does not stop dead, it deforms and flows and splashes out so the energy is merely being redirected. Of course there will be heating in the process but not enough to actually melt the lead. A jacketed bullet on the other hand can contain the core thus stopping it suddenly. Will that actually liquify the core? Well, those jackets falling into the target trench sure looked like the core had melted out and that is what I assumed had occurred. I still haven't done the calculation.
Ok so the kinetic energy of a 147gr 7.62 bullet at 2700 fps is 3250 Joules.
Energy to melt the core is around 2300 Joules. So stopping that bullet suddenly will more than melt it. But that energy does not all go into heating the core.
Last edited by 303Guy; 05-28-2018 at 03:22 AM.
Rest In Peace My Son (01/06/1986 - 14/01/2014)
''Assume everything that moves is a human before identifying as otherwise''
if they melt show me the money. The government and ballisticians studied every aspect of 5.56 performance and this is the first ive ever heard of melting cores. Show me some hard proof of where you gleamed this knowledge. I'm not being sarcastic. I just want to see some real scientific proof.
Ok, to the original SHTF situation? Why, in a SHTF situation are you shooting at someone at a long range? Is it just too announce your presence and be picked off by the other guys, or are you a long range sniper type hoping to take from the other guy? Just wondering why would long range matter in SHTF one man against the world imaginary scenarios?
The statement about not shooting some one you can have killed by someone else is very true. If you are the lone ranger, as soon as that shot breaks everyone in a mile knows theis a guy with a gun and he has something worth talking, or he wouldn't be shooting at us!
That melting core thing has GOT to be the funniest thing I've ever heard in all my years of shooting. I recovered a jacket just like the one pictured from a white tailed deer that my son hit with a strafing shot from close range, o the rest of the bullet was there to, just as dust! I thought everyone that hunts knows that non bonded boat tails are notorious for jacket shedding! I've seen a million jacket sheds just like the one pictured where the jacket slows down but the core don't. I'm still laughing at that one!
Apples and oranges with the SHTF vs military use of small arms. Yep, I've got a cashe of stuff nobody else has, so I'm going to start shooting at them from 800 yards out?
the idea is to engage a threat as far out as you can effectively hit so that he bleeds out b4 he even gets close and his chances of hitting you are diminished. if you can engage at ranges beyond the other guys range then there is not much the other guy can do except do area fire. it is a one tracked and limited mind who thinks that everything is going to be at 20feet or less in a SHTF situation. im like i got a frickin gun with a range of 800m, why the hell would i get into snuggling range if i can take them from the next county over? i for one will not allow them to get that close if at all possible. and who said they was gonna be taking from others? is that your plan?
but unlike some idiots, who idea of combat is what they seen on the TV or in the COD games, you do not just sit in one spot and spray rounds at the target, you relocate after every shot if possible. who the heck is just gonna sit there in one spot and wait for their location to be pinpointed? only the untrained trigger happy cowboy. and you also forget about suppressed weapons. a properly suppressed weapon can be effective at 300m and there is no shot to tell the other idiots there is a guy shooting. 90% of the time the target does not know what side of cover to jump behind.
but you never fight on equal terms. a weapon with a long range is many times more effective at shorter ranges than a short range weapon system, and the kinetic transfer is devastating. but i intend to be as unfair as i can possibly be if the SHTF. there is no such thing as a weapon system that is an overmatch. why the heck everyone gets it in their head that they need to be limited to the OPFORs limits is beyond me. if the enemy can only get you at 200m then you engage at 300m. make it so that he cannot do **** to you but you can dominate him. know your enemy and learn his weaknesses and learn to use them against him.
Last edited by Mauser 98K; 05-27-2018 at 11:39 PM.
It was about the hot burning propellant gases melting the core in the bore. I mentioned that I had experienced jackets landing in the pit after striking the berm. I brought up the question of whether the kinetic energy was enough to melt the lead core on impact which it seems it is. Whether it does melt or not would depend I suppose. While we know that an unbonded core can and sometimes does leave the jacket behind, that does not explain an fmj jacked leaving the core behind since the opening is at the rear. I had assumed that the empty jackets were the result of the core melting on impact (and perhaps there was some partial melting?) but it seems that plasticity of the core could be the explanation. I did show that there is more than enough kinetic energy to melt the core of a 7.62 bullet.
However, it is highly unlikely that a bullet striking flesh would come anywhere near melting its core.
Anyway, I had a look at a few high speed impact videos and it seems that mostly the lead flows under plastic deformation. But there were a few impacts that showed some liquid behaviour from the nose area on initial impact, followed by what appears to be plastic flow and shattering.
https://www.fs.fed.us/rm/pubs/rmrs_rp104.pdf
Melting point of lead is 327.5°C so would those fragments be molten if they were lead?Thermal infra-red video and temperature sensitive paints suggested that the temperature of bullet fragments could exceed 800°C.
Last edited by 303Guy; 05-28-2018 at 05:08 AM.
Rest In Peace My Son (01/06/1986 - 14/01/2014)
''Assume everything that moves is a human before identifying as otherwise''
How do you plan on identifying an "enemy" in this situation?
there is this invention called a "scope" and another called "binoculars". it is a relatively old invention that makes things look closer than they really are. they are really neat, making it easy to tell better details about something that you normally could not see too good.
but put it this way. if they are looting and doing other stupid **** like preying on innocent people, then they are the enemy.
How do you know a looter from someone picking up their own stuff through a scope?
I'm well versed in the use of a scope but unless you plan on just shooting everybody it's pretty difficult to tell friend from foe. It's not like the movies or the garbage books where the evil raiders run up flags and play heavy metal while saying "WE'RE THE BADDIES WE'RE THE BADDIES!"
"WE'RE THE BADDIES WE'RE THE BADDIES!"
This is my point about these SHTF fantasy head games. We had a guy around here that went nuts before the y2k scare and hoarded up all kinds of stuff. Every one knew he had it because and his extended family blabbed about it all the time. Do you really think you can keep your supplies secure by yourself if starving folks know you have it? I dont buy the one man against the world bull flatulence! Communities will organise very quickly, form local governments, and protect the community. Sort of like a small country in a lawless country. If your shooting at someone at long range it will be because you are a sniper guarding a no man's land buffer zone for a said community, or are an invader intent on taking from the weaker community! Snipers are treated very badly when caught in any situation, the only thing that keeps any sniper safe is having a line to fall back to before being cut off from that safety!
As far as the 5.56? Is perfectly suitable for what it was designed for and probably isn't going away any time soon.
Too many action movies and bad post-apocalyptic murder-pron has infected the gun and prepping communities. If everything goes to pot reality looks a lot more like "Alas, Babylon" and "The Postman" then "One Second After" or anything by the super creative pseudonym "A. American". Build strong communities instead of daydreaming about murdering hoarders of "bad guys" from the bushes.
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