a military commanders take on the .223 platform..

[Larry Gibson]

The Sierra MKs were deemed to be designed that the HP is not there to enhance expansion. SPs, HPs for hunting and varmint shooting are designed to enhance expansion. Ergo they were not approved for use. The new cartridges for potential 5.56 replacement will not have bullets designed to expand. Such would be to disregard the Hague Convention provisions. Even though not a signatory the US has abided by those provisions for over 100 years. It remains to be seen whether the 9mm HPs will be approved for general combat use. The use of HPs for LE use by MPs is a different matter as is the use of such in some counter terrorists special operations as neither of those fall under the laws of land warfare.

[Smoke4320]

Yeah but you only have to shoot the poodle once with it. Ussually.

until you are attacked by the ultra tall, hairy bad breath stumbling Hillary Clinton Look alike , then you need 2 mag dumps

[edp2k]

A few of the original design advantages of 5.56 which drove adoption at the time (Viet Nam):

1. full auto rifle with 5.56 is more controllable than FA with 7.62x51 (i.e. M14).
2. weight of 200 round loadout (or whatever count) is much less than weight of equivalent count of 7.62x51,
so a grunt humping the load X miles can either carry more ammo for same weight or less weight for an equivalent count.
This weight savings also comes into play with resupply costs/shipping capacity, cost of mfg, etc.

Neither of these are particularly applicable to someone who is not a mil infantry grunt.
i.e. not real important to a civilian shooter/survivalist.

[white eagle]

lol, 458mag..

but my choice for long range is the .308. it has been proven to 800m to be effective in first round kills.. for the shorter ranges or 300m and below i use the 7.62x39mm.. i load mine with 130gr Hollow Point ammo that i swage myself. they will transfer all energy into the target and create flat disk inside the body. id much rather be able to transfer 700Ft/Lbs into the target at 300m Vs 500Ft/Lbs of the M855 that will transfer less than that in reality as at that range it will not fragment...

one better would be the 6.5 Creedmoor better at long range
goes subsonic at 1300 yds

[Mauser 98K]

i am already setup for the .308. i can get brass just about everywhere. i can find loading data for .308 while non of my books got 6.5 Creedmoor because .308 is not an oddball caliber. and the barrel will last a good long while if i do not max load the snot out of it. and i can't see 1,300m where im at, usually lucky to get 500m on a good day. to many hills and wooded areas.

[Brassduck]

in 1970 in vietnam in the middle of a fire fight damm m16 would not fire (broken fireing pin) in the middle of a sapper attack emptied a mag into a sapper he kept coming (doped to the hilt) found me an M 14 and never looked back. I just can't get comfortable with the AR platform.

[458mag]

For some reason the military went to a 38 cal sidearm during a philipino squabble at the turn of the century of some sort. The enemy would get doped up and our troops found out their side arm was woefully innafective to stop them. Shortly the army pulled their 45 colt armys out of storage and the problem was eliminated with just one slug. Of course we are talking sidearms here but I believe the 45acp 1911 platform and the 9mm would have simular comparisons.

[Lloyd Smale]

how many battles have we been in that the bad guys had Kevlar? Heck some of them couldn't afford shoes. The 556 has kept us free since viet nam and there isn't to many soldiers that are standing in line to trade there m16 for some other countrys guns. As a matter of fact even Russia has switched to a 22 cal vs of the ak47. LOTS of dead men in there graves that would argue with that Major. A mear major trying to tell the military his opinion of what a battle rifle should be is about like the mayor of our little town telling the president how he should deal with Korea. the Navy Seals are arguably the most knowlegable combatants in the world. they can choose from many different weapons. Bottom line is they use variations of the 16 in 556 more then the rest of the choices combined. Id say that says it all

[Texas by God]

I'm not a combat veteran but thanks to them I have the freedom to voice my opinion. And I will agree with what Lloyd just said.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

[bruce drake]

I'm good friends with and have served alongside Lieutenant Colonel (P) Thomas P. Ehrhart when he was a Captain in the same brigade I was in. He now is a senior instructor at our National Training Center in Fort Irwin where we put our Army Brigades through their capstone training events prior to overseas deployments. I agreed with his SAMS article when he wrote it in 2009 and I agree with it still today 9 years later.

And his personal rifles of choice are chambered in 6.5 Creedmoor and 6XC.

And the military does listen to the guys who actually slog through the mud as this news article will espouse.
http://soldiersystems.net/2018/03/23...adopts-6-5-cm/

[Rick R]

Not my lane as I spent 30 years as an LEO, no military.
IMHO The young shooter blasting away at 25 yards beside you with an AR/AK is at least a shooter and not playing video games or marching in a pink fuzzy hat protesting your Constitutional Rights. He/she is a young’n possibly with their first rifle and needs nurturing not scorn.

It was my understanding that the Air Force adopted the M-16 for their security people about the same time the Army and Marines were trying to shore up the ARVN. Guys I’ve known over the years who were there said that when you handed a typical ARVN soldier an M-14 and 200 rounds of ammo he just toppled over or didn’t go very far. So a smaller rifle seemed like a good thing. Add in the accelerated rate that the M-16 was adopted and fielded and it’s amazing there weren’t more American deaths. But 40 years later we know a lot more and the platform and ammo are pretty mature. US soldiers and our allies have put a LOT of our enemies in the ground with a “varmint” cartridge.
I have a 20” AR that is more accurate than any boltgun I’ve ever shot. ARs are very prominent in the winners circle at Camp Perry. I’ve taken deer with my various AR rifles without drama. But I took my deer last year with a .45-70 and a cast boolit.

Soldiers in the field will be wanting more effective weapons even after we begin issuing “Phased Plasma Rifles in the 20 watt range” because you can’t kill someone who is trying to kill you fast enough. The AR-10 / M-14 / FAL are big rifles that shoot heavy over powerful ammo and the M-16 could use an update beyond creating over pressure 5.56 rounds. Maybe someone needs to develop a whole new AR-12.5 rifle midway between an AR-10 and AR-15 with a 6 to 7mm cartridge that makes sense?

[bruce drake]

We have been developing the new rifles in the middle range of calibers. 6.5 Grendel, 6.8 SPC, 260 Rem, 6.5 Creedmoor are just 4 of the cartridges that have been developed for use in the AR15 and AR10 rifles. Of course, the 6.5x55 and the 6.5x50 cartridges have been in use for more than a 100 hundred years each in bolt rifles...But Americans have a hard time accepting a cartridge designed on other continents some times...

[WILCO]

IMHO The young shooter blasting away at 25 yards beside you with an AR/AK is at least a shooter and not playing video games or marching in a pink fuzzy hat protesting your Constitutional Rights. He/she is a young’n possibly with their first rifle and needs nurturing not scorn.

Agreed. I make time for new shooters. Gives me an opportunity to preach the love of military surplus and MILSPEC AR's.

[Drydock]

Individual weapons are one thing. BUt in terms of line infantry, well, since the US Civil War, the vast majority of casualtys are caused by artillery/detached ordnance (air dropped). Infantry weapons rarely engage beyond 200 yards, and then mainly in suppression. Infantry act as noisy lethal bulwarks to direct opposition into kill zones for artillery and air dropped weapons. Certian conditions, urban combat, heavy vegitation, result in more individual engagements, but this comes at close range (I believe the average engagement distance for the last 40 years has been 75 feet!) Thus the adoption of intermediate calibers.

Spec ops have different requirements, and always have, but line infantry are well served by the 5.56. "In Range" TV has an entertaining series called WWSD (What Would Stoner Do) on modern developments in the AR platform.

[Walkingwolf]

I want to point out that any cartridge does not put bodies in the ground by itself, that is mostly done with training, intelligence, and logistics. And probably the biggest superior air power. The A10 WartHog probably deserves a lot of credit, but even it relies on a pilot.

Here is what I think, the troops always want something better, and some will always have gripes. Ground pounders equipment is not as important as the high tech soldiers, planes, copters, tanks, drones, ships. I will concede that a trooper can carry more ammo of 5.56, but he WILL without a doubt shoot twice as much for the same result. 200 rounds is not but a pea in a bucket when fired full auto.

Put a 110 year old grandma in the fastest formula one race car, and she will still finish last.

[Drydock]

One of the reasons the Army no longer issues full auto rifles, and has not for 30 years. 3 round burst is all you get. Most infantry would be served well with simple semi auto, with FA reserved for Squad Leaders.

[Omega]

One of the reasons the Army no longer issues full auto rifles, and has not for 30 years. 3 round burst is all you get. Most infantry would be served well with simple semi auto, with FA reserved for Squad Leaders.

I don't know about the rest of the army, but my last unit got rid of the 3-round burst M4s. All ours are select fire, the 3-round ones were just plain dumb. They would always cycle 3 rounds, so if you only fired one round, it would fire two next time you pulled the trigger, and only one if you got two off.

[EDG]

That depends on who has been shooting at you and what they have been shooting at you with.

Unless you’ve personally carried and used one in combat, I don’t much care about your opinion.

[Rick Hodges]

Everyone talks about the lack of stopping power of the 5.56, yet I know a few guys who are walking around today after taking multiple hits with an AK's 30 cal. rounds.

My family's insurance man, when I was a kid, got stitched with a MG34 as he crossed an open field...took 7 hits from his left thigh, across his abdomen, chest and right shoulder on the way to dropping a grenade on the gun and crew. He won a silver star and purple heart for that stunt and lived to sell us insurance. Do you suppose if one of that machine gun crew would have lived they would be complaining about the lack of stopping power of the 8mm Mauser?

Watch the video and read about Sgt. Benavidez in the post here.....do you think there might be some NVA wondering about the stopping power of their weapons?

Sometimes people are just hard to put down.


The fact is the AR platform in 5.56 has served as the front line rifle of the US armed forces for over 50 yrs. It is effective enough that it is the most widely used rifle and caliber in the free world. It is so effective that our adversaries adopted a cartridge that duplicates its performance.

[leebuilder]

I have read this post since the start.
I served and I preferred to carry a 12GA, no matter where you go in this world everyone knows and understands the sound of a 12GA pump action being racked.
I like the 5.56 and it has limitations but it's history keeps it in service.
Once during a team fire and movement match with steel plates as targets that would/should/hopefully fall, we were soundly beaten by the Canadian Rangers and their 303's, we were still plinking away when they were at the mess on the first beer.
5.56 lacks hitting power!!!!!