a military commanders take on the .223 platform..

[dverna]

It makes little sense for civilians to worry about fmj bullets when better options are available.

I can carry a lot more 5.56 than .308, and I like having more in the magazine. At 400 yards, anyone with some marksmanship skills will be effective. And in a civilian confrontation, I doubt many shots will exceed 200 yards. But that is pure speculation and others will have better data.

I have a .308 “sniper” rifle should the need arise. But will use the AR as the main rifle if the SHTF.

A load out of 5.56 is heavy enough for me. Would not want to carry that much in .308.

[Love Life]

That varmint rifle and caliber has put a whole heap of people under the dirt. I have confidence in the caliber and the platform it is fired from. However, it is not the best for shooting through light barriers.

[shdwlkr]

1 Defense Secretary McNamara gave us the M16 I was in the Army when they were bragging about what a great weapon it was. I hated it 55 grain in a 1 in 14 twist, I had better at home
2 it was thought wounding was better than out right ending the enemy, as it was supposed to tie up more troops caring for the wounded, only thing was the enemy in Vietnam didn't care about wounded so much
3 if you want to hit the enemy at a good distance then you need a bullet of 100-130 grains leaving the muzzle of your firearm at 2800-3000 fps, it isn't rocket science.
4 we went with the 5.56mm round because recoil was less, troop could carry more ammo, learning curve was less than with the 7.62x51, weight of the weapon was less
5 as to the AK round it is good out to maybe 300 yards, it was never seen as a long range weapon by its inventor no less it was a close range weapon to take on issues in a urban situation or close combat
just the thoughts of an old guy who played many decades ago

[458mag]

That varmint rifle and caliber has put a whole heap of people under the dirt. I have confidence in the caliber and the platform it is fired from. However, it is not the best for shooting through light barriers.

And there is the icing on the cake. Why not carry something that is able for any light arms situation a Grunt might find HIMSELF in? Not saying 30-06 or 7.62 nato, but at least something above varmint caliber status. I understand a lot of politics played into the present platform and I think we all know what happens when the goobernut gets envolved with military matters, and also Generals and rear echelon pogies that don't even know which end of the GUN goes bang.

[Bigslug]

We've got boatloads of sources from the dawn of the individually-issued rifle to today that suggest the average guy on the gun is useless beyond, or won't engage past 400 yards on a good day.

The early black powder rifles displayed numerous instances of projectiles sailing over the heads of enemies if the officers didn't tell the grunts to dial their sights back down as the distance closed - not easy to accomplish after all the noise and smoke get started. Parabolic arcs are NOT something the average person can properly visualize. When you get beyond point-and-click ranges and start shooting up and down hills, they're going to need either tracers or the Law of Averages.

The first things to come off the British battle rifles in WWI when they needed to speed up production were the long range volley sights and the provision to easily adjust for windage without a punch and mallet.

The first day of the Somme was a mess on many levels, but it was at least partly so because the Brits tried to move forward through muddy, churned earth heavily loaded down with (among other things) 10-pound rifles and the ammunition to feed them.

The Germans and the Russians were looking at the probability of fighting in the wide open steppes. . .and yet they both started moving to cartridges that are gasping for breath at 400 yards.

Maybe the 5.56 IS devastating inside of 200 yards, and significantly less so beyond. That more or less instantly kills the close range enemies I'm most worried about, and put attention-requiring holes in those farther out, possibly distracting his pals from the fight. A cardiovascular hit is a cardiovascular hit, and will incapacitate rapidly enough. Hits outside the "bread box" are simply bad hits, and they don't - no different than if you botch a shot on a deer. . .even if you do use "enough gun".

I believe in "real" rifle cartridges, having spent years being geeky and nerdy about how to use them. The unfortunate reality, however, is that for every Jesse Wallingford, Alvin York, and Carlos Hathcock who could work miracles with such an arm, there are literally ten thousand walking fence posts who will complain that it's too heavy and kicks too much. As a recent 'net video said of the 8x57, "You don't need a round that powerful to miss at 200 yards".

OK, so Afghanistan is different. We've built our training doctrine around the realities described above, and that reality includes addressing long range threats with specialist marksmen, machine gunners, artillery, and air strikes. Does it really make sense for a nation that takes it upon itself to play in all areas of the world to massively alter equipment and doctrine for one little corner of it? This "arms room" concept sounds like another one of those Swiss Army Knife concepts that solves everyone's problem on paper, but is a real goat rodeo in practice:

Do you have all the spare parts for this single-mission specific weapon system?

Did you bring them to the theater of operations?

Did you correctly order/ship/receive the theater-specific parts. . .or the ones the REST of the Army is using?

When you're an Army unit, and you call on the Marines, Navy, or Air Force. . .or say, a foreign ally to drop you an emergency resupply of ammo and magazines, is what they bring even going to WORK in your rifle?

Not so simple, is it?

[Love Life]

And there is the icing on the cake. Why not carry something that is able for any light arms situation a Grunt might find HIMSELF in? Not saying 30-06 or 7.62 nato, but at least something above varmint caliber status. I understand a lot of politics played into the present platform and I think we all know what happens when the goobernut gets envolved with military matters, and also Generals and rear echelon pogies that don't even know which end of the GUN goes bang.

The M203 40mm grenade launcher firing a HEDP round takes care of the barrier issues we’ll enough, lol.

[Walkingwolf]

I don't know about some of the options some of you guys would have rather than a m16 i.e. 7:62 Russian and 30-30 think about it for a minute . At 500-600 or so yard what's your hit potential with a marlin 30-30 or SKS ? I've shot that range before with the AR15 with open sights and have have high confidence of hits on human size targets . Food for thought ,hits in a lesser caliber is better than misses With something better , marksmanship comes into play also in all this

30-30 is more than adequate accuracy for home defense, or law enforcement. Anything further would usually be the 308 in a tuned bolt action. Every shooting incident the AR platform IMO has performed poorly. Survivable wounded far outnumbering the fatalities, number of hits to incapacitate in the handgun category. This has proven true in almost every mass shooting, which is probably a good thing. Several gun experts have pointed out that one of the tactical shotguns are far more deadly. Even the famous Garand would outperform, with almost every hit in center mass a fatality. The Garand devastated the Germans, and Japanese.

It's no skin off my neck, use what you want, I am just not impressed.

[gnostic]

Bash them if you will, but my AR's drive tacks. I used to own a HK91 and in addition to destroying my cases, target acquisition was very slow, due to the weight. Make no mistake, the M16/AR15 is a killing machine, if I had to defend myself, one of my AR's would be my first choice.

With bullets and motorcycles, power thrills, but speed kills. Awhile back, a guy on youtube showed a bullet wound to his thigh from a 193-5.56. The bullet tumbled, bent in half at the cannelure and came out of his knee. I don't think a .264 or .277 bullet with a decent BC, could be driven fast to match the destructive nature of the 5.56/223...

[Walkingwolf]

Unless you’ve personally carried and used one in combat, I don’t much care about your opinion.

Fair enough, but as far as opinions go I have no problem with telling people to go pound sand. I live my live on my own terms, do not stick my nose in other people's business, and do not even attempt to control anyone other than the person in the mirror. IOW, I just don't give a **** what others care about.

[Walkingwolf]

Bash them if you will, but my AR's drive tacks. I used to own a HK91 and in addition to destroying my cases, target acquisition was very slow, due to the weight. Make no mistake, the M16/AR15 is a killing machine, if I had to defend myself, my AR would be my first choice.

With bullets and motorcycles, power thrills, but speed kills. Awhile back, a guy on youtube showed a bullet wound to his thigh from a 193-5.56. The bullet tumbled, bent in half at the cannelure and came out of his knee. I don't think a .264 or .277 bullet with a decent BC, could be driven fast to match the destructive nature of the 5,56/223...

It's not bashing, it is called preference, like some guys like redheads instead of blonde. As far as destructive, larger heavier in the same velocity wins as far as energy. Heck the old CW musket 58 caliber ripped off limbs, and it was just lumbering along.

Everybody who would hunt buffalo or bear with 5.56 please raise their hands. Guess what was the predominate round for hunting buffalo before smokeless rounds. I don't own an AR and have no intention of buying one, and I will thumb my nose that anybody that whines about it.

[Gavetta]

a good shooter with an m16 20 inch barrel in a snug sling at 600 yards should be able to keep a 9inch group.a 7.62 x 39 is not competitive.go watch an nra match and look at the targets.

[derek45]

The M4 & 5.56NATO aren't going anywhere for a while.

Lots of dead commies and terrorists, . . . deader than fried chicken, since 1965

Pretty much every nation on earth (that can afford to$$), is dumping 7.62 and adopting 5.56, 5.45, 5.8 caliber weapons.

It's easy to say " let's go back to 7.62NATO/6.5/6.8 when you back your car up to the shooting bench.

It's different when you have to hump it, along with all the other sheit

[Love Life]

People can argue it until they are blue in the face, but the irrefutable fact is the platform and the round have earned their place on the battlefield. They are effective killers.

[WILCO]

Unless you’ve personally carried and used one in combat, I don’t much care about your opinion.

People can argue it until they are blue in the face, but the irrefutable fact is the platform and the round have earned their place on the battlefield. They are effective killers.

There are many reasons why I don't come here and participate like I used to.
The negativity and ignorance of fact is frustrating and a turn off.
So much so, in this thread that I felt compelled to comment.
Firearms are nothing more than tools in a toolbox. Learning how they work is imperative for success.
Understanding that a simple .22 lr will deliver death is a good starting point. Everything after that is relative. The two quotes above, say all I need to know about the AR and 5.56.
It would behoove the membership to realize book smart and reality are indeed, two different worlds.

[458mag]

It's always been my understanding, that killing wasn't the desired effect. A wounded adversary, that requires labor intensive treatment, was thought to be prefered.

Not when the enemies leaders could give a beggers fart about the well being of its troops, and I for one have reservations about just wounding the enemy and playing nice. You kill the SOB with as little ammo as He deserves. General Patton would be rolling in his grave at todays military. Don't think many men complained to him about My equipments to heavy.

[derek45]

ask any combat arms MOS soldier or Marine if they were trained to wound.

that old 5.56mm "designed to wound" rumor is bravo sierra

[Love Life]

I was taught center mass, and to keep shooting until they are dead.

[Duckiller]

General Curtis le may got M-16s for his airmen base guards in Vietnam. Army guys saw them and wanted them. Lots more bullets for the same weight. This is what an OLD arm,y guy remembers. I never got to shoot one and only handled one once. Did carry an M-14 a bunch. The OCR was one day away from going into Washington DC with fixed bayonets on m-14s.

[Hickory]

I believe Jeff Cooper called them "Poodle Shooters"

Yes, that's what it does best!

[Love Life]

Yes, that's what it does best!

The 5.56 kills a lot more than poodles.