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Thread: a military commanders take on the .223 platform..

  1. #101
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by 303Guy View Post
    Yeah, that empty jacket probably just lost the core. The berm empty jackets were melted out though. The core had to come out the base and being boat tails the only way to get out was being liquid. Of course, the jackets were deformed from impact into gritty soil.

    High speed impact videos show the lead going splat and there is some liquid but not all the lead melts.
    With high speed impact it's not necessary to become a liquid, the lead is soft enough to act as a liquid *relative to the brass and surface* under high heat and pressure. It's just deformation. Also note that the impact and pressure spike will cause an increase in heat through friction.

  2. #102
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    When you swage Copper, Brass, or Lead they don't melt; They sure deform, though! Same on bullet impact, inertia & the force of impact "swage" the heck out of the bullet...

  3. #103
    Boolit Master 303Guy's Avatar
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    In the video I was watching there was what appeared to be mostly plastic deformation but some impacts showed distinct liquid from the nose area of the bullet.

    Any melting would be the conversion of kinetic energy into heat energy on impact. There would of course be considerable energy dissipation in deformation and transfer to the impacted plate. In the case of the 7.62 bullets striking the berm, there would be energy dissipation into the berm itself. I suppose the core only has to go plastic with some melting (or maybe none) to completely escape the jacket.

    I have a picture of a boolit deformed on impacting sand. No melting, just plastic flow.

    Last edited by 303Guy; 05-23-2018 at 02:58 AM.
    Rest In Peace My Son (01/06/1986 - 14/01/2014)

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  4. #104
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    Lloyd Smale's Avatar
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    heres what nosler says about bullets melting. Add to the fact its only in the barrel for one fifteeth of a second that as soon as it leaves the barrel its being cooled but the air makes it pretty tough to believe a core can melt. Considering it has to heat through the copper jacket and get the lead core up to over 600 degrees in a 1/15000 of a second makes it an impossibility. If it did youd see shotgun like patterns on a 25 yard target and your bullets wouldn't even pattern let alone group. Now were talking 3000 fps in a military rifle (06,308,223) Ive got a 220 swift that adds a good 1000 fps on to that and shoots sub moa at a 100 yards. Why aren't the bullets melting in that gun? My 7stw uses LOTS of powder and pushes 150s to 3500 plus fps. If anything was going to melt a bullet that gun would and it do shoots sub moa. Nothing but urban legends. Another good example is my 50 beo when I use lilgun. 10 rounds as fast as you can pull the trigger and you can about light a cigarette off the barrel but if I shoot 10 that fast and heat the barrel up reload and shoot a 3 shot group fairly quickly with lead bullets or plated it will easily do 1.5 inch at a 100 yards. I can see flame cutting do to gas pressures but bullets don't melt. I cant imagine the temps it would take to melt lead in 1/15000 of a second but it must rival the temp at ground zero of a hydrogen bomb!!!.
    The polymer tip contained in Nosler’s AccuBond®, AccuBond® LR, Ballistic Tip®, E-Tip® and Varmageddon® bullets have three main functions. First, it is meant to maintain sharp tip shape and not deform which is common on lead tipped bullets. Second, because of this sharp spitzer nose, the ballistic coefficient is improved for better long range accuracy. Third, the polymer tip acts as a wedge upon bullet impact which initiates expansion as the bullet penetrates; maximizing dependable and reliable would channel destruction. The tip does not melt away from the bullet while traveling through the barrel or before terminal impact. Based on a bullet traveling 3000 fps, it only takes 1/15000th of a second for a bullet to travel through a 24” barrel so there is little time for heat to affect the integrity of the bullet in any way. Most often, the tip “washes” away along with a partial amount of the nose of the bullet during expansion.
    Soldier of God, sixgun junky, Retired electrical lineman. My office was a 100 feet in the air, closer to God the better

  5. #105
    Boolit Master 303Guy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lloyd Smale View Post

    I can see flame cutting do to gas pressures but bullets don't melt. I can't imagine the temps it would take to melt lead in 1/15000 of a second but it must rival the temp at ground zero of a hydrogen bomb!!!.
    This is exactly right. The only way to melt the lead core would be to suddenly stop that bullet so that the kinetic energy is converted into heat energy. That assumes the bullet has enough kinetic energy after losses.
    Rest In Peace My Son (01/06/1986 - 14/01/2014)

    ''Assume everything that moves is a human before identifying as otherwise''

  6. #106
    Boolit Master Texas by God's Avatar
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    I guess that molten lead core is the reason a 22-250 will shoot through steel quite easily.......

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  7. #107
    Boolit Man 458mag's Avatar
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    I have a savage 22-250 with a 1in 12 twist that if I load 40 grain thin jackets and push em hard some of them will vaporize into a grey colored vapor about 20 feet in front of the muzzle. Thought I was shooting one hole groups there until I realized what was going on.
    Most folks see a firearm as rifle, pistol, shotgun, ect.... I see a canvas.

  8. #108
    Boolit Master Mauser 98K's Avatar
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    it is not melting, it is the malleability of the lead. at high velocity the molecular cohesion of the lead molecules are not strong enough to prevent the kinetic energy from shifting them around. what appears to be a liquid state is more or less an illusion caused by the forces imparted upon the bullet as it strikes an object. in order for the lead to melt the entire core would have to end up over 621.4°F..

  9. #109
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    Been around the M16 since 1968. I am of the opinion Stoner got more right with his version than the Marine Corps fixed with the A2. In RVN it was a 6.5 pound rifle that would let you hit a man about as far as you had any business shooting at one. Back then M193 ball from a 20 inch barrel made some gruesome holes too. Now an M4 comes within ounces of weighing as much as an M1 Garand and the short barrel works against ammo the depends on velocity foremost for its effectiveness.

    Despite all that, the deadliest thing in an infantry squad is the push to talk switch on the radio. You should not shoot anyone you can get someone else to shoot for you. Fire that rifle and you immediately announce to all that you are there. Call in indirect fire and any survivors will be left to puzzle out who, if any one, saw them and called it in, and where they could possibly be.

    For the most part, I was pleased with the terminal effects of M377 canister.

    Click image for larger version. 

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  10. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by one-eyed fat man View Post
    Been around the M16 since 1968. I am of the opinion Stoner got more right with his version than the Marine Corps fixed with the A2. In RVN it was a 6.5 pound rifle that would let you hit a man about as far as you had any business shooting at one. Back then M193 ball from a 20 inch barrel made some gruesome holes too. Now an M4 comes within ounces of weighing as much as an M1 Garand and the short barrel works against ammo the depends on velocity foremost for its effectiveness.

    Despite all that, the deadliest thing in an infantry squad is the push to talk switch on the radio. You should not shoot anyone you can get someone else to shoot for you. Fire that rifle and you immediately announce to all that you are there. Call in indirect fire and any survivors will be left to puzzle out who, if any one, saw them and called it in, and where they could possibly be.

    For the most part, I was pleased with the terminal effects of M377 canister.

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    Enjoyed your post. That is not the first time I have heard "You should not shoot anyone you can get someone else to shoot for you."

  11. #111
    Boolit Master 303Guy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mauser 98K View Post
    it is not melting, it is the malleability of the lead. at high velocity the molecular cohesion of the lead molecules are not strong enough to prevent the kinetic energy from shifting them around. what appears to be a liquid state is more or less an illusion caused by the forces imparted upon the bullet as it strikes an object. in order for the lead to melt the entire core would have to end up over 621.4°F..
    Which is what one can see in the video I watched. Thing is, the core has to stop dead for the kinetic energy to be converted to heat. A lead boolit does not stop dead, it deforms and flows and splashes out so the energy is merely being redirected. Of course there will be heating in the process but not enough to actually melt the lead. A jacketed bullet on the other hand can contain the core thus stopping it suddenly. Will that actually liquify the core? Well, those cores falling into the target trench sure looked like the core had melted out and that is what I assumed had occurred. I still haven't done the calculation.

    Ok so the kinetic energy of a 147gr 7.62 bullet at 2700 fps is 3250 Joules.
    Energy to melt the core is around 2300 Joules. So stopping that bullet suddenly will more than melt it. But that energy does not all go into heating the core.
    Last edited by 303Guy; 05-25-2018 at 03:39 AM.
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  12. #112
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    Lloyd Smale's Avatar
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    if they melt show me the money. The government and ballisticians studied every aspect of 5.56 performance and this is the first ive ever heard of melting cores. Show me some hard proof of where you gleamed this knowledge. I'm not being sarcastic. I just want to see some real scientific proof.
    Soldier of God, sixgun junky, Retired electrical lineman. My office was a 100 feet in the air, closer to God the better

  13. #113
    Boolit Master
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    Ok, to the original SHTF situation? Why, in a SHTF situation are you shooting at someone at a long range? Is it just too announce your presence and be picked off by the other guys, or are you a long range sniper type hoping to take from the other guy? Just wondering why would long range matter in SHTF one man against the world imaginary scenarios?
    The statement about not shooting some one you can have killed by someone else is very true. If you are the lone ranger, as soon as that shot breaks everyone in a mile knows theis a guy with a gun and he has something worth talking, or he wouldn't be shooting at us!

    That melting core thing has GOT to be the funniest thing I've ever heard in all my years of shooting. I recovered a jacket just like the one pictured from a white tailed deer that my son hit with a strafing shot from close range, o the rest of the bullet was there to, just as dust! I thought everyone that hunts knows that non bonded boat tails are notorious for jacket shedding! I've seen a million jacket sheds just like the one pictured where the jacket slows down but the core don't. I'm still laughing at that one!

    Apples and oranges with the SHTF vs military use of small arms. Yep, I've got a cashe of stuff nobody else has, so I'm going to start shooting at them from 800 yards out?

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check