Yes animals can run about 10 seconds or about 100 yards when shot through the heart. But many do not run at all.
I have shot deer with 11 different calibers and some of those more than 10 deer each. I find the .223 class of rifles very lacking in killing power and tissue destruction.
EDG
Originally Posted by Mauser 98K
this post highlight this fact that either captagon or such deshinibitor combined with an opioid gives the result that,the pressure of the bloodstream stays ve'''normal''' ,even in critical situations like facing a death or life scenario. that means for a ',dedicated''' fighter that,even wounded to death, the dude will not react to it mentally, only a drastic and sudden loss of blood pressure is gonna take it down. with such small bullet, it takes many into the body to instills sudden and drastic losss of pressure in the blood stream,which means the doped dude will continue to fight witnh precision till the blood pressure goes completely flat or close to flat.
a 165grs bullet makes bigger holes,then imply more blood vessels cut for a single round ; more of these bullets in the body means a really fast loss of vascular pressure....and we're not talking about shots in the vitals here.
I wonder if the Soviets sat around carping: Geeze Sergei, we have to do something there are all these reports of American GI's getting hit with 7.62mm 130 gr. AK rounds running around and shooting up our surrogates with 22's. Why Ivan told me about this case of hitting this guy 3 times and he still closed and killed half an NVA squad. Hell, this SF Sgt. took multiple hits, grenade shrapnel and still closed and killed two with his bare hands. Those crazy GI's shoot often, shoot accurately and tear us up....we have to do something. Lets design a cartridge that duplicates theirs.
thank you!!!
Got to see this quite a bit over the years and a couple of wars.
"Our guy' gets shot to pieces and keeps fighting = Medal of Honor; "their guy" does the same thing = "They must be high on some kinda drugs!"
"Sarge, it took half a mag to drop that VC (skinny, Haj, dink, etc) @#@^^*&&$!!!!" They do not like it much when you kick over the body, point out two holes and ask, '"Where did the other 18 go?"
By and large its been fifty years since any significant number of recruits grew up hunting. They have never tried or even seen anything killed bigger than mosquito. Having grown up watching TV, the movies, or currently, the latest iteration of "Grand Theft Auto" soldiers today are often extremely disappointed after their first firefight when the actual effects of small arms on live targets does not come close to their expectations.
The only program I have ever seen get it even remotely close is the "VBS" simulation from BIS Studios. VBS stands for "Virtual Battle Space". It was developed in conjunction with and for the military for virtual combat simulation. In it you can hit the bad guys in the legs,arms,abdomen,etc,and this will normally result in a wound and he can still fightback. More than once I seen an AI bad guy crawling around like a worm shooting because his legs were buggerd.. The closest civilian simulation that has the first generation VBS software in it is "Operation Flashpoint". It is close to the military version of it,except the bad guys do not shoot from tops of trees,windows,and roof tops.. They will get wounded and out flank you though. The best civilian version I know of is called "ArmA" or "Armed Assault". The first ArmA was and still is the most realistic military simulator available to the general public. Has realistic weapons physics, wounding capabilities,the bullets create sonic cracks,and the AI do unit tactics. These are not your COD idiot AI.
But in the end you still gotta remember it is a simulation.
Last edited by Mauser 98K; 06-06-2018 at 03:07 PM.
posted a whole long story of my 8 years but then thought who the heck am I trying to impress?? Someone who didn't ever serve. So ill leave it at this 4 years in the coast guard and 4 in the navy.
Last edited by Lloyd Smale; 06-07-2018 at 08:54 AM.
Lloyd
Thank you for your service.
Larry Gibson
“Deficient observation is merely a form of ignorance and responsible for the many morbid notions and foolish ideas prevailing.”
― Nikola Tesla
back at you larry!!
The Soviet 5.45 had a nose cavity that caused wounds similar to a hollow point varmint bullet. It was nick named "the poison bullet" because Afghan rebels hit just about anywhere were not likely to survive due to almost complete lack of medical care.
The Vietnam era 55 grain bullet could also tumble and fragment at close range causing devastating wounds.
No one doubts the severity of wounds from those cartridges when the target wears no body armor. These days any one can obtain body armor that can stop or at least absorb most of the energy of a 5.56 round.
The first thing Jihadis go for when hitting Afghan or Iraqi police stations is the stockpile of body armor. Its more and more common to see jihadis sporting armored vest of various makes.
The SMG has been put aside in favor of the assault rifle because pistol type rounds aren't all that effective against even minimal home made armor.
Body armor used by late WW2 Japanese air commandos was proof against the .45 ACP at point blank range but the .30 carbine would walk right through it.
Even Vietnam era flack vests could stop the .45 or 9mm at a reasonable distance.
A 5.56 bullet with penetrator tip may pass through most vests, but the resulting wound may not incapacitate an enemy even if he is not worked up or drugged.
PS the reason deer can run quite a distance after the heart has stopped or been destroyed is that there are internal valves in their blood vessels, similar to those in the human leg , that close up and exert back pressure to prevent sudden drops in blood pressure. The G suit used by fighter pilots work on a similar principle. The valves in the human leg blood vessels prevents you from blacking out when you stand up too fast, otherwise we couldn't walk upright.
think 6.5 Creedmoor
nuf said
Hit em'hard
hit em'often
just saw on another fourm where a poster posted a link to the military possibly adopting the 6.5 for sniper support. Not for the actual sniper. An ar10 type gun in 6.5 for his spotter. Now that makes real sense put them both in the field with different ammo and neither one having a long gun that's worth more then a paper weight if the run out because nobody else on the battle field will have ammo for it either. ONLY sane way to do it would do it all at one time. Infantry, special forces, marines, all branches and jobs. I don't know. I guess I'm not a general or politician. But it seems to me that slowly adapting a new round would cause LOTS of headaches. If snipers and special forces can benefit from it then do just them but all of them. Sure don't here many of them bad mouthing there 762s though or for that matter front line combat troops badmouthing the 5.56. Mostly internet experts. . Personaly I think its more of a matter of some upper echelon officer wanting to make a name and get promoted. Taking viet nam out of the picture because there was some learning curve and mistakes made with the 16 at the beginning that left a bad taste lets here from people that USED a 5.56. I don't care if you were a soldier or a police officer. But lets here some real experienced trigger pullers instead of this urban legand walter middy internet **** from guys that MIGHT have shot 4 deer in there life and none with a 5.56. then out of those guys who would swap your 5.56 for a springfield, mauser, or even a garand in REAL combat?? Remember now "call to duty" video games don't count. Must be at least some REAL experience here from Granada, Desert storm and even present day guys. Keep in mind too whos going to pay for it! You and me! Raise your hand if you can afford your taxes raised again. One thing for sure is whichever country we donate all our ars to will be well armed when they turn on us. What? Government wont give them away? What do you think they will do with them? Sell them to us!!!
http://www.foxnews.com/tech/2018/06/...avy-seals.html this is the kind of technology we should be spending our money on. Not wasting it on a problem that doesn't exist. We already have a battle rifle at least as good as anything else out there. Bet not to many navy seals would rather switch to a 6.5 then have one of these. Technology and training are what makes a difference today in this high tech world. I'm all for sitting back on the back line sucking on a beer and letting a drone do the shooting.
So I take you was never a boots on the ground soldier?
I didn't read the whole thread, but when Dad was in the Corps, they came one day, took his beloved M14, packed it in cosmoline, and handed him a slow twist 5.56. He still mourns the day...
a lot of guys hated that day. they were good with the M14, trained with the M14, and some stuff shirt legislates them a new weapon that handles totally different and has half the power and range.
but to answer any questions about me Lloyd.. no i have not served. i will not lie about this nor try to lead anyone on. i will not assume to be an expert on combat as i have never been in combat in the military definition.. i have been in a few altercations and got shot at a few times in bad section of town, but that is the limit of my real world experience. i however have friends in the military, in law enforcement, and got blood kin who have died in every conflict this country has ever fought. if it were not for the fact that the military does not take people with certain health problems i would have served after i graduated school.. i tried but got denied. but do not get me wrong, im as willing as anyone to put boot to *** for this great nation if the situation arose.. the best i can do right now is information. that is why i do tutorials and give my information freely to help others be better prepared in the event that something does happen...
but all i did on this thread was to agree with those who have fought with the 5.56 in places where you are more than likely using the weapon system in the upper limits of its design..here in the US there will be a lot of places where the 5.56 is seriously under powered. what i was pointing out is that in a civilian world where you have no CAS or other indirect fire methods, where there is no medevac, you need to put the target down as fast and as accurately as you possibly can. if it takes half a mag load to stop the intruder who just popped out to stab or shoot you then it is very possible for him to do enough damage to you to kill you b4 he finally dies. especially is he is high on drugs, which is a very large problem in the US right now. but the information i have given can be verified by military studies and first hand accounts of troops who have been in combat. to deny this first hand information is to call these guys liars.. i fully believe that what happened to them happened, and i will take the first hand experience of a guy who has fought in combat over someone who never did any day..
Well, the actual problem is not with the caliber....it lies with the fact that fmj bullets are mandated for military use. All the hoopla surrounding the 5.56 is to be expected when 1 shot stops are the expectation albeit unrealistic. Similar stories abound from clear back in WW1 of men shot several times but would not go down. Also well known was fmj milsurp ammo's poor record on game animals....shot 'em & shot 'em but they just run off. Expecting anything less than a .50 BMG fmj round to knock down the enemy is folly, as my first team Sgt. told us "Keep shootin the SOB til your certain he don't need any more killin".
Mauser98K, before you bet on that x39 round just because it's bigger, has more energy etc. let me apprise you of the story of a man shot 7 times by AK47 fire and not only survived but was able to continue a firefight for 6 hours. As you stated "and i will take the first hand experience of a guy who has fought in combat over someone who never did any day". Without further ado, I introduce you to one of the finest men I had the honor to serve with MSgt Raul "Roy" Perez Benavidez. In quotes is his CMH Citation detailing action.
"BENAVIDEZ, ROY P.
Rank: Master Sergeant
Organization: U.S. Army
Company: Detachment B-56
Division: 5th Special Forces Group
Born: 5 August 1935, DeWitt County, Cuero, Texas
Departed: Yes
Entered Service At: Houston, Texas June 1955
G.O. Number:
Date of Issue:
Accredited To:
Place / Date: West of Loc Ninh on 2 May 1968
Citation
Master Sergeant (then Staff Sergeant) Roy P. Benavidez United States Army, who distinguished himself by a series of daring and extremely valorous actions on 2 May 1968 while assigned to Detachment B56, 5th Special Forces Group (Airborne), 1st Special Forces, Republic of Vietnam. On the morning of 2 May 1968, a 12-man Special Forces Reconnaissance Team was inserted by helicopters in a dense jungle area west of Loc Ninh, Vietnam to gather intelligence information about confirmed large-scale enemy activity. This area was controlled and routinely patrolled by the North Vietnamese Army. After a short period of time on the ground, the team met heavy enemy resistance, and requested emergency extraction. Three helicopters attempted extraction, but were unable to land due to intense enemy small arms and anti-aircraft fire. Sergeant Benavidez was at the Forward Operating Base in Loc Ninh monitoring the operation by radio when these helicopters returned to off-load wounded crewmembers and to assess aircraft damage. Sergeant Benavidez voluntarily boarded a returning aircraft to assist in another extraction attempt. Realizing that all the team members were either dead or wounded and unable to move to the pickup zone, he directed the aircraft to a nearby clearing where he jumped from the hovering helicopter, and ran approximately 75 meters under withering small arms fire to the crippled team. Prior to reaching the team's position he was wounded in his right leg, face, and head. Despite these painful injuries, he took charge, repositioning the team members and directing their fire to facilitate the landing of an extraction aircraft, and the loading of wounded and dead team members. He then threw smoke canisters to direct the aircraft to the team's position. Despite his severe wounds and under intense enemy fire, he carried and dragged half of the wounded team members to the awaiting aircraft. He then provided protective fire by running alongside the aircraft as it moved to pick up the remaining team members. As the enemy's fire intensified, he hurried to recover the body and classified documents on the dead team leader. When he reached the leader's body, Sergeant Benavidez was severely wounded by small arms fire in the abdomen and grenade fragments in his back. At nearly the same moment, the aircraft pilot was mortally wounded, and his helicopter crashed. Although in extremely critical condition due to his multiple wounds, Sergeant Benavidez secured the classified documents and made his way back to the wreckage, where he aided the wounded out of the overturned aircraft, and gathered the stunned survivors into a defensive perimeter. Under increasing enemy automatic weapons and grenade fire, he moved around the perimeter distributing water and ammunition to his weary men, re-instilling in them a will to live and fight. Facing a buildup of enemy opposition with a beleaguered team, Sergeant Benavidez mustered his strength, began calling in tactical air strikes and directed the fire from supporting gunships to suppress the enemy's fire and so permit another extraction attempt. He was wounded again in his thigh by small arms fire while administering first aid to a wounded team member just before another extraction helicopter was able to land. His indomitable spirit kept him going as he began to ferry his comrades to the craft. On his second trip with the wounded, he was clubbed from behind by an enemy soldier. In the ensuing hand-to-hand combat, he sustained additional wounds to his head and arms before killing his adversary. He then continued under devastating fire to carry the wounded to the helicopter. Upon reaching the aircraft, he spotted and killed two enemy soldiers who were rushing the craft from an angle that prevented the aircraft door gunner from firing upon them. With little strength remaining, he made one last trip to the perimeter to ensure that all classified material had been collected or destroyed, and to bring in the remaining wounded. Only then, in extremely serious condition from numerous wounds and loss of blood, did he allow himself to be pulled into the extraction aircraft. Sergeant Benavidez' gallant choice to join voluntarily his comrades who were in critical straits, to expose himself constantly to withering enemy fire, and his refusal to be stopped despite numerous severe wounds, saved the lives of at least eight men. His fearless personal leadership, tenacious devotion to duty, and extremely valorous actions in the face of overwhelming odds were in keeping with the highest traditions of the military service, and reflect the utmost credit on him and the United States Army."
Following is a slightly more detailed account...
“Get us out of here! For God’s sake, get us out!” The cry for assistance came from a twelve-man Special Forces Recon Team that was pinned down in thick jungle and surrounded by a North Vietnamese Army (NVA) battalion (approx 1000 men) west of Loc Ninh. Three choppers had already attempted a rescue but were driven back by small arms and anti-aircraft fire. Benavidez did not have orders to go, but with a medical bag in one hand and a knife in the other, he jumped into the bay of a Huey revving up for another rescue attempt.
Intense enemy fire in the area kept the chopper from landing. Hovering 10 feet off the ground, Benavidez made the sign of the cross across his chest and leaped off the chopper. The long-suffering recon unit was 75 yards away. Benavidez began the deadly gauntlet, fell when an AK-47 round pierced his right leg, sprang back to his feet but was immediately knocked off his feet again by a hand grenade that ripped his back and neck. Those initial wounds were the first of thirty seven separate bullet, shrapnel, and bayonet injures he would receive during the next 6 hours of violent combat.
Praying aloud to his Creator, Benavidez mustered the valor to rise again and run under fire to the crippled 12-man squad. He found 4 dead and 8 others badly wounded. He began passing out ammo to the soldiers still able to fight; he injected morphine into the wounded; he called in air strikes, then was hit again. Bleeding and in pain, Benavidez dragged dead and injured men to the hovering chopper while providing cover fire with an assault rifle he found on the ground. The chopper moved to recover even more bodies. The enemy fire increased.
Benavidez made another mad dash to retrieve classified documents of radio codes and call signals still secreted on the body of the dead team leader. As he seized the documents, Benavidez took another round in the stomach and additional shrapnel fragments in his back. Coughing up blood, he attempted to return to the chopper only to see the pilot receive a mortal wound. The Huey crashed to the ground.
Undaunted, Benavidez pulled wounded from the overturned chopper, called in more airstrikes, and directed the fire from helicopter gunships. Blood trickled into his eyes, temporarily blinding his vision. In the midst of deadly fire, Benavidez sat up a defensive perimeter and continued to rally injured soldiers to fight on. He later recollected, “I made the sign of the cross across my chest so often my arms looked like an airplane propeller.”
Before the second chopper came in Benavidez was wounded several more times. Urging the injured to fight on and keep praying, he slung a wounded soldier over his shoulder and scurried for the chopper. En route to the Huey, an enemy soldier jumped up and clubbed Benavidez from behind with the butt of a rifle; Benavidez and the wounded soldier fell to the earth. Bayoneted in both arms, Benavidez managed to grasp the bayonet which gouged his hand but gave him enough time to pull out a knife and kill the enemy soldier. Now with a shattered jaw, both arms lacerated, a slashed hand, bullet holes and shrapnel in his body, Benavidez assisted the last remaining injured man onto the Huey – their Vietnamese interpreter.
The rescued soldiers inside the Huey pulled Benavidez’s battered body aboard the chopper. Blood pooled, then flowed out the bay door. The flight back to Loc Ninh was a 20 minute ordeal with Benavidez holding his intestines in his hands during the entire trip. At Loc Ninh, Benavidez was triaged and pronounced dead. As the doctor attempted to zip up the body bag, Benavidez could only marshal enough strength to do one thing to prove he was still alive: he spit in the doctor’s face.
As you ponder this, keep in mind he was shot 7 times (one bullet transversed his chest destroying his right lung and exiting just below his heart) he was bayoneted in both arms, and had 28 grenade shrapnel wounds along the length of his body (including 2 pcs lodged in his heart muscle where he carried them til his death). He fought non-stop 6 hours with these wounds and was not on drugs as the ones in your quoted stories. I submit to you this thought...use expanding bullets no matter what the round is, fmj can't be relied upon to do the job expected with any efficiency. Oh and never believe a story told by military brass when they have a financial agenda...ie kickbacks for helping a company a new weapons contract. Don't believe me? Do the math yourself, figure civilian cost for 7 mags, a barrel and bolt in either 6.8sppc or 6.5 grendel, multiply that by approx 100,000 line battle troops, add $500.00 each for ammo. Now subtract your total from the "projected cost for upgrade" and ask yourself "where in the H is all that extra money going?"
Remember, prostitution is the oldest business but war is the most profitable business.
An old Cherokee was teaching his grandson about life. "Inside me two wolves fight," he told the boy.
"One is evil - he is anger, envy, greed, arrogance, self-pity, resentment, lies, false pride, and ego. The other is good - he is joy, love, hope, serenity, humility, kindness, generosity, truth and faith. The same fight is inside you - and every other person, too."
The grandson thought for a minute and asked,"Which wolf will win?"
The old Cherokee replied, "The one you feed."
agreed. FMJ is not the ideal stopping design. the big reason i don't have much of it on hand except for practice or for better barrier penetration. if it were up to me id let the guys who wanted to load their 5.56 with the A-Max 75gr. problem is that is a big no no according to the conventions and you're buggered if they catch you doing it..
Non FMJs are fine for civilian use - Just not for .mil use.
I've mentioned the combatant who took three AK rounds to the chest at close range and lived to tell me about it. I've also mentioned the 7.62 fmj passing through small critters (cat size) and not stopping them while the 5.56 blew those same critters apart - at close range. I've compared the effects on game of 55gr soft point .224 bullets with .308 bullets and they were indistinguishable. That's not even fired from a 223 but a 22 hornet (a hot load though). Range was 200 meters, measured on one occasion and closer on other occasions.
That said, I have no experience shooting people, with or without body armor. What I did find though is that I could really shoot with my little mini-14 in 5.56 fitted with a scope. I was known to never miss. Where it failed miserably was getting through the lightest of obstructions. The largest game animal I killed with it was an African bushpig (big mama) and all it did when hit was run off. I aimed for the heart and heard the hit. We found it about forty paces into the long grass and bush. That would be about the distance it would have run with a heart shot. No different from a larger caliber. I wouldn't hunt pigs or any other fair sized game with a 223 again but I wouldn't feel inadequately armed with a mini-14 in a SHTF situation (unless I needed to hunt for survival). Not in the environment I can imagine finding myself in anyway.
Rest In Peace My Son (01/06/1986 - 14/01/2014)
''Assume everything that moves is a human before identifying as otherwise''
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