M98K
Do not confuse the attributes of a sniper rifle with the needs of a battle rifle. I have a few of each and will keep it that way. I see the need for both.
For your situation and abilities,you may be correct. That does not mean it is the correct solution for everyone.
Don Verna
The Remington 700 (721) is based on the 98 Mauser like the Glock is based on the 1911.
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same here dverna. i also see the need for both the standard battle rifle and the bolt gun. and you are also correct about what is correct for one person is not for the next person..
but on the 700 Vs mauser design.. the mauser has a locking lug design, the 700 has a similar design. the metals may be different between the two and the feed system may be different, but the similarities are there. The 700 descended from the Model 721 - 722 designed by a Remington engineer named Mike Walker in the early 1950's. They were designed from the ground up using proven Mauser 98, Winchester Model 70, Remington Model 30 & other similar proven features but designed to be made on automatic lathes out of round bar stock with very little to no hand fitting required. go read the history on the 700 if you think im lying.
There are a lot of matches won every year with Stoner pattern rifles. I have owned several that were sub MOA at 100 when scoped. My eyes don’t cooperate as well with irons as they used to. Once upon a time I got to play out to 600 yards with my heavy barrel AR shooting 69gr SMK ammo and once dialed in the 12” gong was hurting by the time I was done.
I believe the biggest problem with the M-4 is the 14.5” barrel. The 5.56mm round needs velocity to create wounds. Shortening the barrel to 10”, 12” or 14.5” robs the cartridge of wounding ability. I attended an Urban Carbine class a few years ago and during breaks it was interesting to listen to other students discuss what I call “Boutique” loads that were designed in their opine to make their SBR of choice wound as well as a 20” rifle with 62gr fmj (ss109). They were touting high pressure loads with exotic bullets loaded to the point the brass was junked after one firing. I was sold! Sold on going back to a 20” AR. So I built one with a free floated 20” FN barrel, ALG ACT trigger, Leupold 1.5-4x scope with a BDC regulated to 77gr OTM ammo, backup irons and Magpul fixed stock that doesn’t pluck my mustache hairs like a collapsible stock does.And ‘lo n behold! Every round it shoots is as lethal as a 20” AR. The dudes on the various AR -centric forums call a 20” AR a “musket”. Guess I’m an old fashioned kinda guy.
If the military is going to stick with short SBR type rifles they should look to move to something that shoots a 6-7mm bullet. I believe that the 6.8SPC would benefit from a total magazine redesign, probably making it wider to stack the fatter rounds properly. Then redesign the M-16/M-4 lower to accept the new magazine with normal size fire control group, upper, buffer tube and start phasing them in as an M-5 or something. 80% as effective as a .308 and light as a mouse gun.
Holes kill stuff. Poke holes in a person and they tend to knock off what they were doing.
i know i would. lol. them holes hurt, and you tend to leak a little afterwards.Originally Posted by Love Life
I know Mauser and Remington history just fine. The 700 has dual front lugs and a staggered feed magazine and that's the only features it shares with the Mauser variants you mentioned.
Sorry for the thread drift, I'll be sit.
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not a problem. people ought to speak their mind. and this is the "Military Rifles" section after all.
I will trust the words of those who have been there and done that.
I know that one member here has been there and done that and his posts in this thread make nothing but sense to me. I have one AR dedicated to XM855LC1 AC1 ammunition which I keep handy. My other two are used with soft-point ammunition designed for deer and hog hunting. If the military could use that ammunition, a hit most anywhere would be problematic for the recipient . Regardless, a solid hit with the XM855LC1 AC1 ammunition is a strong deterrent.
other then both being bolt actions the 700 shares very little with the mauser. now the springfield is much closer.
Saying the 700 is a copy of a mauser is like saying a glock is a copy of a luger. Or a new corvette is a rip off on the model t ford.
Accuracy. Ive got 8 ar15s right now. All by the way standard weight barrels. Nothing heavy barreled. Two of those shoot sub moa and the others (other then my AR pistols) are moa or darned close to it and I'm sure if I put in enough time could find something moa for them. I own 12 bolt action rifles right now. 2 of them are moa guns. One is a 240 wby. one is a rem classic in 6mm. Ive got only one that shoots sub moa and that is a 700 varmint 22250. Out of all of them my colt lower (inexpensive) model one 1-7 stainless barreled upper is the most accurate. It will shoot 1/2 moa and my 700 will do about 3/4s of an inch. I'm talking an average of 3 5shot groups. Ive owned probably close to 50 bolt action rifles in my lifetime. I can count on one hand how many shot sub moa.
Replace a worn out barrel? Take your bolt gun to a gunsmith because you are going to need to have it head spaced. An AR barrel is about a 15 minute swap. So easy that you could even swap calibers in 15 minutes.
Want a real test that will show in a shtf situation which is more accurate. Fire 30 rounds as fast as you can out of your out of the crate 98. While your doing that have someone sitting next to you that is going to get real bored shoot an accurate ar15 at the same rate of fire. After that shoot a 5 shot group and see not only which group has opened up the most but how far that group has wondered from zero.
Ive shot a barrette 50 bmg semi auto gun. My kind of wealthy neighbor has one. If you don't think its moa ive got a news flash for you. We had it out on a bench one day and two of us each shot 3 rounds at 250 yards and even with two different shooters you could cover the group with a quarter and if you doubt the accuracy of a semi auto look at groups shot with OPEN sighted m14s in competition. I once went to one with a buddy who shoots and those guys and guns were shooting 200 yard groups with open sights that I would be jumping up and down about with a heavy barreled bolt gun and a 16x scope.
I wont argue that a bolt gun will not outshoot a semi auto in a 1000 yard competition but then those are specialized high dollar guns. Compare out of the box under a 1000 dollar American bolt action guns to out of the box ar15s and your odds of finding a sub moa ar15 are no less likely then finding a sub moa bolt gun. Looking at what ive owned through the years in guns I call turd guns. Guns that wont shoot under 2 moa. Ive had many more bolt guns (thanks mostly to rugers) that wouldn't shoot under 2moa. Ive yet to own an ar15, again other then pistol length that wouldn't shoot 1.5 moa. Sure you can take a bolt gun and crown it, float the barrel bed the stock ect but were talking out of the box guns. Stand out there at 500 yards and let me shoot at you with any of my ar15s and see the results. don't stand there to long though because ill dump a whole 30 round mag into your chest and I don't need match grade bullets to do it. 1000 yard kills are in the realm of very highly trained snipers not an infantry soldier. they are not even close to trained enough to do it and sure don't need a gun capable. Just doping wind at a 1000 yards takes months of training.
Do you really believe that carlos Handcock is a typical soldier? Do you really believe that someone that talented coudnt have done the same with a accurized m14? He used a bolt gun because that's what was issued to him. Add to that that theres probably only one percent of the military that are snipers and can really get everything out of there rifle and just like in sports in the sniper world there are super stars that stand above the rest and he was one of them. because jimmy Johnson could beat me in a corvette around a nascar track with a pickup doesn't make the pickup as good of a track weapon as the corvette. Even then your comparing a 98 mauser to a accurized model 700 sniper rifle and that's just about back to the vette/truck comparison. Out of the crate 98s issued to german soldiers were not moa guns. They were a darned fine battle weapon in there day. probably the best bolt rifle issued to troops but they were made obsolete like all main line battle bolt guns were the day americans stepped into the battle field with a garand.
This is all nonsense. You can preach and make justifications all you want but id bet if you were an honest man and served in the military in a position that you were actually shot at and had to shoot back today you wouldn't choose a 98 mauser or any bolt gun. At least not if you wanted to see your family again. Remember saying this that your not a sniper. You can walter middy all you want dreaming of being carlos Handcock but shooters like him come around about once in a generation. Probably 75 percent of the recruits showing up today only exposure to shooting a gun came in a video game. Ill make you a wager right here. Ill put a full sized silhouette target out at 500 yards and ill let you choose which of my ars you want me to use and you can bring your ringer and we will shoot standing on our feet with no rest and ill bet you a 100 bucks to a 1000 I can put 15 hits on that target faster then you can. Ill probably be done while your stuggling with your first reload. Then we can put 10 targets out at 50 yards and ill take the same bet that I can put two bullets on each target before you put one on each. Probably 3. Then you will say that your 857 puts as much power on a target as my 556 does with two shots. then I will say ill borrow my buddys m1a and take the same bet. Heres the bottom line. You find me ONE active duty infantry man that would swap his m16 for a 98 mauser and I will bow to your superior knowledge. Even find me ONE sniper that would swap his 700 for a 98 and youll have me bowing. My guess is that you either haven't put time in with a ar15 or love your old nostalgic gun. Nothing wrong with that. Id love to have my old 70 ls6 chevelle back too but I sure know it doesn't hold a candle to a new zl1 Camaro.
Lloyd Smale wrote;
“Do you really believe that carlos Handcock is a typical soldier? Do you really believe that someone that talented coudnt have done the same with a accurized m14? He used a bolt gun because that's what was issued to him. ”
Actually Carlos Hathcock used the M-14 when it served him AND had a mount fabricated so he could attach a scope to an M-2 .50 Cal. for when he needed real long range thump. He held the World Record longest kill with a shot he made at 2,500 yards using a Browning M-2. Hathcock didn’t just use a bolt gun.
Last edited by Rick R; 06-01-2018 at 07:59 AM.
I like the 223, just not so much for anti-personnel use. (Managed to avoid having to do much about it, fortunately.) At 6'5" tall, I will take a 7.62x51 over 5.56x45 - If someone's shooting at me, sorry, but I want to ruin their week badly, because there's NO dang good reason for that behavior.
A 257 or 30-06 or 243 would do, I just am picky and want to STOP them from ruining what's LEFT of my factory warranty, if any. Little enough left!
I'd rather be using 7mm Rem Mag and have a quite sore shoulder, than be bleeding, even. I know, I'm unreasonable.
Also I'm allergic to paper patching, led boolits, j-word jackets, sabots, those make me break out in bad bleedy wounds and I just do not like those...Same thing for car bumpers, be they chrome or plastic.
I have shooting variations of the M16 since 1968 and watched them evolve to fit a myriad of roles from combat rifle to target gun. About 15 years ago I was in the 1000 yard butts at Fort Knox's Scott Mountain range pulling targets for another relay during an ordinary monthly club match. Watching an AR post a 97-3x with iron sights on hot hazy July afternoon impressed me. While I like shooting service rifles that are steel and walnut, if you are a serious competitor in High Power you either shoot an AR or lose to one.
Lol Lloyd.. I never said my Mauser was a full military configured in 8x57. And I changed my own barrel in about 20minutes, did the reaming and head spacing myself. But if that 5.56 is so superior at long range, why don't the snipers use it at long range instead of the 7.62? At over 600m the 5.56 energy and velocity has usually dropped below that of a 22short. It does not matter how well you can hit at long ranges, it only matters if it will do any real damage to the target. But as I keep saying, hell the commander basically said the same thing, controlled range conditions means diddly squat.
but if we are going to go to long range applications. don't just take my word for it. talk to the guys over at "snipercentral.com" about the 5.56 in a sniper configuration. talk to the guys over at "thehighroad.org" or "snipershide.com". a lot of these guys were snipers, some still are. if anyone would know about the 5.56 in long range killing applications it would be these guys. ask them why they prefer the .308 and bigger bolt guns for longer ranges past 200m.
but apparently you didn't see my 20rnd group i could cover with a quarter in the post above that i did with my mauser that you say the group would open up after shooting several rounds..
but Lloyd. for the 50m test. we will be going for accuracy, not speed. speed with no accuracy is meaningless. there are no cumulative hits outside of video games. but go outside right now, while it is dark, and do a dime sized 15rnd group in the standing supported position.. my support was a fence post.
this is mine i just did about 5 minutes ago, in the dark, with 165gr lead round nose, with mismatched reformed 7mm-08 brass, and a 400$ hand built Mauser rifle that should be wondering all over the map according to you. this was after i fired 10 fouling shots to warmup the barrel. think how good a group i could get if i sat down and weighed the charges (im using the lee cc dippers leveled off with a card), if i cc the cases, and weighed the bullets..
but if you really want it to be accurate side by side accuracy comparison. it needs to be 95% humidity at 78*F. it needs to be drizzling rain with a small 3-5mph full value wind from 3 O'clock. the light needs to be from the left at about 9 O'clock. altitude needs to be around 500feet above sea level and the barometric pressure needs to be 29.93. the shooting angle needs to be about 2*.
but if we were gonna go for 500m the target would be the size of a grapefruit.
but in some of my other post i said that the semi auto has advantages over the bolt action, even said that i got one for those situations when things get closer. never called the semi auto inadequate like you called the bolt action Mauser that has been proven to be anything but. the Parker Hale was a M98 action and was used for sniper operation by England. the M67 Norwegian, where my rifle barrel comes from, was also a M98 action.. a lot of old custom firearms companies got their start using the Mauser actions. H&H was one of the companies that built a lot of large bore elephant and dangerous game rifles out of the Mauser action.. if the Mauser was so dam bad in its designs and so obsolete then a lot of world class target rifles would not have been built on them. and some armies still use the modified Mauser action for their sniper rifles. not so antiquated and useless in my book.
but all i did was more or less agree with a military commander and the studies into the 5.56 in the terrain of Afghanistan. i even said that id have no problem with an AR-10 if i was handed one.. where people got that i was saying that the semi auto was less superior is beyond me. hell the Dragunov is a semi automatic rifle capable past 800m. the M21 is a semi auto 7.62NATO rifle also capable to 800m. i never said the semi auto was worthless or could not put rounds on target faster than a bolt action. the problem is that even though the semi auto is capable of fast rates if fire, the further the range the slower the fire rate must be in order to do aimed fire and put rounds on target effectively. sure the AR has a capability to fire over 600rnds a minute, how many rounds will hit the target at 300m, 400m, 500m, at those fire rates? all you can do with rapid fire at long range is area fire and suppression fire. and if the guy with the bolt gun can get that one perfect round on target then it does not matter how fast you can pull that trigger because you will not be able to return fire. then fire rate becomes null and void. this was what i was getting at. never said the semi auto was useless. i got several. i just prefer, when range gets long, to use a round that is proven to do first round accurate hits that incapacitate. the entire deal was on the 5.56, not bolt Vs semi automatic.
Last edited by Mauser 98K; 06-02-2018 at 01:14 AM.
I'd as soon have a dedicated survival rifle and a hi capacity all metal handgun as to carry a semi auto rifle in the supposed post apocalypse scenarios.
A over under Savage with .223 rifle barrel over a 12 ga shot barrel would be far more useful and weigh a lot less than most of the military type rifles.
A chamber adapter to allow use of .22 rimfire rounds would complete the package.
A lightweight hide out piece in .22 Rimfire would be optional for emergency use.
In a post apocalypse world those not eating long pig would most likely be eating dog, cat and rat than Moose and Elk.
The lucky ones would be feeding on squirrel and rabbit. A bucket full of .22 RF could go a long way.
Not much on this continent that a 12 ga slug won't drop if need be and a load of buck shot has settled a lot of disputes.
yep. in a SHTF situation, especially if the power is out, you run into food storage problems with big game, so smaller critters would be ideal. in the winter food storage is not as much a problem, but the middle of summer the larger critter would have a half life of about 3-4 days b4 ya couldn't stand to be around it. ya would have to go back to making jerky and the old ways of preservation if you wanted to store any of it without refrigeration.
but i consider the semi auto rifle i got as a just in case item reserved for 2 legged vermin only. it will most likely not be used much, if lucky maybe at all. fingers crossed. but id probably rely on the single shot .22cal i have and the bolt gun for game getting if the opportunity arose. but if you do find a critter in those situation you do not want to fire more than one shot in any case. the first shot lets them know someone is out there, the second shot paints a large red bullseye on ya britches. someone might decide to try and take your critter if they are desperate enough. but this is where i feel suppression technology come into play the best. you can game get and not alert anyone to your location. but game will get real scarce real fast in larger population areas, so the opportunity may or may not arise. it'll be a mess, that is for sure.
but as to the challenge.. i got no doubt that under controlled conditions and when the target that never moves that you could hit that full sized silhouette at 500 yards. i do not doubt it a bit. how many bullets does it take to get a hit cold bore though? can you dial the scope (if equipped) and achieve a first round hit every time? if not then you just warned the target. and will the bullet do critical damage to a man at that range? how is it with barriers? this is why the police abandoned the 5.56 for longer than 75m shooting, as it had trouble going through barriers, the bullet would fragment with every little thing it hit and go who knows where, and would usually not immediately incapacitate the target who took a hostage, especially if the suspect was doped up on something. if he was doped up on something then there was cases of the suspect was hit several times with the 5.56 and would still be fighting if a vital spot like the heart or nervous system was not hit. then it came to blood loss, which sometimes could take a little while. and what if im wearing armor? armor is very common here in the US. will that 5.56 do any damage out past 150m-200m if they are wearing armor? then head shots come into play. smaller target and the aim needs to be more precise. unless you just want to wound, which is a viable option if you just want to get out of the area. shoot for the groin area and legs and this will allow you to get out of the area.
the problem is that a man is not gonna just stand there in the open like your stationary targets. i know i wouldn't. it is human nature that when rounds start popping to dive behind cover, especially if the guy has any sense. then that full sized man target that you can put rounds on at 500m if it never moves turns into a moving target that ends up the size of a milk jug (the size of a head), smaller if he starts shooting back through a hole or gap. then it makes no difference if you can fire one round per second or as fast as you can, as you will then have to do controlled aimed fire to get any results, unless you just want to waste ammo.. plus in a true SHTF situation there is no backup and no CAS to call. the standard military combat tactics do not apply in a SHTF situation. training for clearing rooms and pinning the enemy down with thousands of rounds waiting on CAS or other indirect fire becomes useless. the rifle will be the main weapon used and will have to be all direct fire.
but the people who have this spray and pray mentality were and still are known as "machine gun survivalist". they were the butt end of jokes in survivalist and militia circles for years. and still are. i am part of and know people in the militia. some of these guys still are and most were military for many years. they don't see my bolt action as a handicap. there is a reason the M40 and M24 bolt gun is called a "Force Multiplier".
the (volume over accuracy) people actually got it in their head some where that the more rounds fired the better,this may be the case when engaging human waves or the targets pop up in the open.. but some people think that there is a point where it turns into a cumulative hit, totally ignoring that only hits that are on target count. so you can carry 400rnds or more. how fast does that go up at 800rnds a minute, which the AR and other semi automatics are fully capable of? do the math.. 400rnds at 800rnds a minute rapid fire... you will be out of ammo b4 one minute is up. even if you carried 600rnds that still is only around a minute or to 5 minutes tops depending on fire rate b4 you are out of ammo with the rapid fire. where is your supply chain? where is you wagon of ammo you pull behind you? it is best that in a world where ammo will become scarce real fast to not waste what little you do have. accuracy over volume fire is a must. but i understand that there is a trade off with any platform.
Last edited by Mauser 98K; 06-03-2018 at 05:29 AM.
so what you have is a deer rifle not a combat rifle. Never said the 223 was a good 1000 yard sniper round. But probably less then one half of one percent of soldiers in combat shoot past 500 yards anyway. A infantry weapon is a compromise. Every gun and every caliber has good and bad points. The m16 is low in recoil so that the average soldier isn't intimidated by it. It has much less muzzle blast then a 308 or 06. Something that matters a lot in close quarters. Its light. Much lighter then a ar10 ect. So its easier on the troops to carry around all day. Ammo is lighter and takes up less space so more can be carried comfortably. It is a heck of a lot easier to slap a new mag in a gun then to top feed a mauser or any other bolt. It is adequately powerful for the ranges 99 percent of combat happens at. Its an easy gun to maintain and about anyone with a half hour of training can replace any part on it. Find yourself a firing pin or firing pin spring spring for your mauser on ANY battle field. Its just as accurate as any bolt action mass produced gun at the ranges it is designed to work for. By the way what gives you the right to claim our soldiers today are so poorly trained that spray and pray is the norm. We have the best trained military front line soldiers fighting for us today that ever were. Were not talking a bunch of drafties forced into service trained for 6 weeks and thrown into the jungle.
You give up about all these advantages for one advantage with your bolt gun. the ability to engage targets better out past 500 yards. Which is maybe an advantage to wanabe snipers. The military isn't stupid. they issue a darned good battle rifle to there troops and maybe on in a 100 that is a QUALIFIED SNIPER gets issued a gun to take care of those small percentage shots and are highly trained soldiers capable of doing it. they not only can shoot smaller groups then you but can do it under the pressure of battle. The sniper himself is more the weapon the the rifle he uses. Ill put it simple.
Anyone here that would rather have mauser 98k backing him up with his deer rifle if being attacked by enemy troops 500 yards away then would choose a navy seal sniper with a scoped m16. Now I haven't seen a thing about his combat experience here. Maybe he served most likely he didn't. But even if he did hes not going to be my first choice to neutralize a target at 800 yards with his deer rifle. At least unless that target is a piece of paper or water jug. Way to much wanabe and walter middy stuff here.
But maybe we should have our polititians spend 10 million dollars of our tax money doing studys and billions of dollars of our tax money on a replacement for a gun that already works as good or better then any battle rifle on earth. One that very few REAL soldiers have a problem with. Its more of a problem with internet experts. Ive said my peace. Nothing I posted here isn't true. Good enough for the navy seals and every branches special forces its good enough for this guy.
Seems a bit strange that even the communist block countrys have gone our way and use 22 cal automatic guns and they don't even have to ask permission to spend money to find what works and what doesnt. Seems odd to me that they didn't go bigger or at least stay the same. Maybe they've decided they don't want to kill us anymore. Just wound us. Or maybe none of them are near as sharp as some of the experts here. Ill bow out of this one now. Obviously my firearms knowledge isn't on the same level as some.
Last edited by Lloyd Smale; 06-03-2018 at 07:33 AM.
In regards to post #160 , it was before the war that an agreement was reached on the 03 infringements , it was the spitzer bullet that was settled years after the war and payment to the munitions firm .
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