Reloading EverythingRotoMetals2MidSouth Shooters SupplyLoad Data
Titan ReloadingRepackboxInline FabricationWideners
Lee Precision
Page 10 of 12 FirstFirst 123456789101112 LastLast
Results 181 to 200 of 226

Thread: a military commanders take on the .223 platform..

  1. #181
    Banned
    Join Date
    Aug 2017
    Posts
    340
    agree on most of that Lloyd. for within the range it is intended for and under most conditions it is fine. but as to top the reason they switched to the 5.56. you can argue this if you want, but it is well documented that the reason they switched was that most fighting went to close range and they needed a lighter weapon that was more controllable with automatic fire an could carry more ammo for long jungle patrols.. it was developed when we were in the jungles of Nam for jungle environments and close engagements. but how much military fighting these days is open range? a small percentage. the rest is MOUT and Cordon and Search. unless you get into the mountains of Afghanistan or the rural areas of the US most of everything is within 200m, and the 5.56 will be no problem. but where they are having problems with the 5.56 is when the insurgents are using their *** antiquated and useless Lee Enfield and Mauser rifles out past 300m-500m.. then the 5.56 becomes near useless as the research and first hand stories say, and it then all turns into indirect fire. tell me im wrong. this is all well documented. this was one thing i was trying to get at for the SHTF situation. in that situation there will be no CAS for you to call. this relying on the fancy CAS and other indirect means is shielding the shortcomings of the 5.56 in long range combat. if they were to remove the radio and all the indirect fire methods then i can bet the situation would change drastically. in the civilian world there is none of this stuff and you must equip accordingly. that is the point i was trying to make. this is not the military. this is civilian world where the rifle is the only means of fire you will have available.

    but lets go to the 1980s when Russia was trying to empire build in Afghanistan like we are currently doing.. they had the exact same problem we are having now, the larger bore WWII weapons were an over match for their shorter range AK designs. remember that the 5.45x39 was already in service since the 70s at this time and was also inadequate for the long open spaces of Afghanistan. this stuff is all documented and has been studied to death. it is also why the military is currently actively seeking a better longer range cartridge. if the 5.56 was the perfect round then they would not be looking to upgrade.

    but does this look like a dang deer rifle?
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Vera Rifle.jpg 
Views:	22 
Size:	27.8 KB 
ID:	221530
    this is a modified M67 Norwegian rifle. it is the Mauser action and the same forged .308 barrel used by their elite guys. the only difference is the scope, the stock, and the added muzzle brake..

    but im still waiting on your grouping with that 5.56. i showed you mine, now show me yours. go outside tonight, while it is dark like i did, and do a 15rnd group that can be covered with a dime. ill wait. i mean if you are so good and the 5.56 is so Superiorly accurate then this should be something you could do in your sleep. in a real SHTF you will most likely have to do night fire, as it is when the idiot cowardly looters like to come after you. this will make it an accurate assessment. and walking around with a flashlight is a big no no. that is like saying "here i am"..

    but, somehow this always keeps getting turned into the AR platform Vs full military dress K98. i said i had no problem with the AR. where did i ever say the AR was a ***? for some reason you keep getting a pole stuck up the wazoo about the M98 Mauser and just go after it as if it makes it obsolete and you automatically correct... if you still think the M98 is an obsolete killing rifle then stand down range and let me shoot you with it. but apparently you have never fired a good Mauser with good ammo.

    but this is supposed to be about the 5.56 cartridge, not AR Vs M98.. stop getting butt hurt because i insulted you favorite cartridge that is obvious you never used in open range combat. the US will be open range. there is a lot more open spaces than city spaces.

    but you never did ever go over to the snipers hangout websites i posted and ask them about the 5.56 and why they do not use it did ya?

    but as to the civilian and a bolt action being combat ineffective. who are we fighting in the middle east? they sure as heck are not conventional forces. we are fighting farmers, mostly civilians. and are doing a pretty good job too, being they can tag someone from 600m with a crappy old bolt action that you keep saying will not hold up to a modern military force with the 5.56. and the Russians in the 80s didn't think they were ineffective either. if it were not for the radio and the indirect means of fire the taliban would have a very good advantage with the bolt action SMLE against the 5.56. but as said, in the civilian world you do not have this capability.

    and as for recoil being a problem. with a proper muzzle brake the 7.62x51mm can have the recoil of a 9mm carbine. mine is low recoil, actually has less than my SKS. and at 6ft 4in tall and 240lbs (not all fat either) recoil is not a problem for me. now obviously if your a 2feet tall 25lb leprechaun you are gonna have problems with recoil.
    Last edited by Mauser 98K; 06-03-2018 at 07:51 PM.

  2. #182
    Boolit Buddy glockfan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2018
    Location
    partly VT,partly canada
    Posts
    481
    but where they are having problems with the 5.56 is when the insurgents are using their *** antiquated and useless Lee Enfield and Mauser rifles out past 300m-500m.. then the 5.56 becomes near useless as the research and first hand stories say, and it then all turns into indirect fire. tell me im wrong. this is all well documented.
    exactly.

    ...and this is the why UK are slowly replacing their 5.56 by the good ol .308.

    they already started with some ''speciality squads'''. but word is it's gonna be extended to the land soldiers.

    the middle east and the high top mountains engagements....it's far from being over.
    Last edited by glockfan; 06-03-2018 at 05:50 PM.

  3. #183
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Posts
    4,635
    Quote Originally Posted by FLINTNFIRE View Post
    In regards to post #160 , it was before the war that an agreement was reached on the 03 infringements , it was the spitzer bullet that was settled years after the war and payment to the munitions firm .
    Correct. I've tried to explain this many times in the past. An infringement is not a legal issue so long as the manufacturer reaches an agreement with the inventor. The U S Chief of Ordnance negotiated for payments to Mauser by way of his legal representatives in the U S. The payments were for various details of construction of the magazine , extractor and stripper clips and modifications to accommodate these.
    The dual opposed front mounted lugs which are the heart of the Mauser design were either not patentable since they were lifted from the French Lebel by way of the Spandau GEW 88, or the protection had run its course before protection for the 1893 Mauser magazine and clips ran out.
    In fact the American Greene bolt action rifle of the 1860's had dual opposed front mounted lugs. I think it was patented in the late 1850's.

    A conflict between the Chief of Ordnance and the Comptroller of the Treasury was over the details of the contract with Mausers representatives, it was not made clear that there would be no reason to pay a royalty once the patent protections ran their course.
    The U S Government withheld payments when we went to war with Germany and at the end of hostilities had to pay Mauser back pay with interest, but I've found no case number to indicate an actual lawsuit as such. Most likely settled in arbitration.

    The .223/5.56 is deadly on medium size game at reasonable ranges and has a distinct advantage in very lightweight survival type rifle because of much reduced recoil compared to larger bore cartridges.

    The ability to use Milspec ammo or soft point hunting ammo, both widely available is another plus compared to dedicated hunting cartridges like the .30-30.

    A chamber adapter or two allowing use of .22 rimfire, from CB cap on up to LR or even .22 Magnum allows one rifle to perform several roles.
    CB caps make so little noise that a silencer isn't needed to prevent announcing your presence when bagging small game.

    In general the winner of any gunfight is the one who first puts a round into the opponents vitals.
    Firing off ten or twenty rounds to take down one bad guy would certainly announce your presence.
    If they are too close to avoid contact or disengage quickly that's where a hi cap handgun comes in handy.
    The 12 gauge under barrel of the Savage is also a great close quarter persuader . Nothing will chill their ardor as quickly as one of their crew catching a face full of buck shot.

    Main thing is to see them before they see you.

  4. #184
    Banned
    Join Date
    Aug 2017
    Posts
    340
    thanks for the extra info multigunner and FLINTNFIRE.

    and agreed glockfan. that mess over there could very well drag out for another 20 years.

  5. #185
    Banned
    Join Date
    Aug 2017
    Posts
    340
    but back to the 5.56..

    this is a Statement for the Record of the Senate Armed Services Committee and Airland Subcommittee May 18, 2017 By Major General Robert H. Scales.. http://14544-presscdn-0-64.pagely.ne...s_05-17-17.pdf

    in it you will find a quote of a guy from Walter Reed who was wounded and another guys killed by a suicide bomber. he states that with the 5.56 M4 that him and his buddies fire at least a full mag into the insurgent who was still able to get close and detonate the bomb he was wearing. said that the 5.56 rounds had little to no effect on the doped up insurgent.

    here is the quote..
    "Yesterday I was at Walter Reed and among others spoke at some length with a fine young Marine infantry officer, Lt David Borden, who lost a leg in Ramadi to a suicide bomber. He lost a leg along with other serious wounds, blast killed one of his lads, wounded others. Most notably, he emptied a magazine into the man charging them, at close range, even as his fellow Marines riddled him as well at close range. Certainly, the guy was on drugs, but the bottom line was that our assault rifle did not have
    the stopping power to put the enemy down on first, second, third...fifteenth etc. rounds to the body... "

    but this is not the first time this has happened..there are multiple accounts of this happening where the enemy combatant still was able to kill someone after taking 30rnds or more of the 5.56 to the body. but there was a guy over at the high road forum who said that in Nam one of his buddies emptied a mag into a Commie soldier who just sort of half way grinned at them and walked comely down the hill. they found his body the next morning with a glass vile and some bamboo stickers for injecting opium into the body.. the point is that even with a full clip of 5.56, sometimes the bad guy can still kill you b4 dying of his wounds, especially if he is high on something. in a lot of cases the 5.56 just does not have the power to stop the assailant, especially if he is high or a real big guy. you might kill him but sure as the day is long he will kill you b4 dying. that is why i do not advocate anything smaller than a 7.62x39 if you really want to put them down. but the 5.56 was too small for Nam, and it sure as hell is too small for today at the ranges encountered..

    but here is the article from The Atlantic from Major General Robert H. Scales. https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine...rouble/383508/

  6. #186
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    West Tennessee
    Posts
    2,160
    I think the military is holding out for caseless ammo to be perfected. It does appear to be just around the corner and then all us reloaders will be just above a muzzleloader in firearms evolution! When caseless is perfected you will probably see a larger caliber projectile, in a more compact case(that burns up), larger round count loadouts that weigh the same as today, and more compact magazines to boot.

  7. #187
    Banned
    Join Date
    Aug 2017
    Posts
    340
    they been experimenting for decades on the caseless ammo. one experiment was the Heckler & Koch G11. https://modernfirearms.net/en/assaul...es/hk-g11-eng/

    one of the big problems with the caseless was that it does not like wet and humid environments and the charges can crack and fall apart if rough handled.

  8. #188
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    West Tennessee
    Posts
    2,160
    (They been experimenting for decades on the caseless ammo.)

    Yes, and when I was in high school if you'd told us a few years down the road I could carry a device in my pocket that I could talk to someone half way around the world, send written messages, pictures, watch videos, capture photos and video then post them to an internet site, order a pizza, buy just about anything from a ride to ammunition, find an answer to just about any question you can think to ask, find where you're at and where your going and turn by turn directions to get you there, then find your favorite food when you get there, share personal details no one cares about or needs to know, and debate endlessly about if the 5.56 will "get it done" I'd said you where just crazy! Yep, caseless ammo is coming.

  9. #189
    Boolit Grand Master In Remembrance
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Location
    The Pacific NorthWet
    Posts
    3,877
    I remember the Trounds, among other failed attempts at caseless ammo. Also heard about some work on liquid propellants, and so on. We'll see it when it arrives.

    One rather nice thing is a lot of ways in the 'Stans is that the structure of society there causes a lot of hostiles there to not learn the basics of shooting, maintenance, etc, with some exceptions, I've been told. Not been there to check. Basically "Allah" will make the bullet go where he wills it, make the weapon go Bang! or not, as he wills it, etc. There's a military adage, "Never stop your opponent when they're making a mistake" and IMO that's definitely a mistake; If the folks over there were all good long range shots, that'd be far nastier. (Mind you, it's nasty just having someone lob a round in your general direction...)

  10. #190
    Banned
    Join Date
    Aug 2017
    Posts
    340
    Quote Originally Posted by Thundarstick View Post
    (They been experimenting for decades on the caseless ammo.)

    Yes, and when I was in high school if you'd told us a few years down the road I could carry a device in my pocket that I could talk to someone half way around the world, send written messages, pictures, watch videos, capture photos and video then post them to an internet site, order a pizza, buy just about anything from a ride to ammunition, find an answer to just about any question you can think to ask, find where you're at and where your going and turn by turn directions to get you there, then find your favorite food when you get there, share personal details no one cares about or needs to know, and debate endlessly about if the 5.56 will "get it done" I'd said you where just crazy! Yep, caseless ammo is coming.
    i seen what ya done there. subtle, just like a bowling ball to the head.. but you are probably correct, the 5.56 thing has run its course and needs to be laid to rest.. nothing more can come form arguing in this thread anymore..

  11. #191
    Boolit Grand Master In Remembrance
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Location
    The Pacific NorthWet
    Posts
    3,877
    There ARE plenty of good uses as a civilian, for 5.56; Mine are varmints (Chucks, and Yotes, mainly, though a Raccoon aka 'Trash Panda" would be quite acceptable too) - Also lots of alternate calibers for the AR platform. Main thing I see is, ENJOY shooting! It's fun and a good skill to work on for your whole life

  12. #192
    Banned








    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    munising Michigan
    Posts
    17,725
    In general the winner of any gunfight is the one who first puts a round into the opponents vitals.
    Ill play off of that quote. The m16 in its various configurations is probably the easiest infantry weapon to do that with. It weights a 1/3 less then any gun before it (other then the m1 carbine) Ammo weights a 1/3 less or more. So our soldiers (keeping in mind we have women in combat today too) can carry it all day with much less effort and after carrying it for 8 hours are going to shoot it better. Add to that theres MUCH less recoil so it doesn't intimidate less capable shooters when they do have to use it. A 5.56 bullet in the lungs or heart is going to kill someone just as dead as a 7.62 bullet. A shot not in the vitals might see the 762 making a more horrific wound but it wont kill most times either. I remember when the 9 replaced the 45 and people would say a hit with a 45 would bowl someone over like they were hit with a sledge hammer. Not even close to being true.

    Then add to this the versatility of the gun. It can be shot with open sights a red dot, accog, conventional scope or night vision. Any of which can be kept sighted in and swapped in seconds. No other infantry gun before it had that versatility. You cold mount a grenade launcher, lazer designator, flashlight ect in seconds so it can be configured in a few minutes to be ideal for the situation your called to enter. Want suppressed fire. 15 minutes it could be converted to 300 black out with a simple swap of a barrel. Same mags bolt ect. Granted most main line infantry troops don't swap a lot of things day to day but our special forces do. Would there be better choices. YUP. Maybe the same gun shooting a slightly larger caliber. But then like I said in other posts is it going to improve it enough to justify rearming every soldier we have with a new gun? At what cost to tax payers? Billions of dollars. Like ive said too its not the soldiers that are clammering for a replacement. Most of them are happy with the m16. Its internet experts and self proclaimed ballistics experts that make all the noise. So some major says we need a new gun. Some major sitting at his desk in his office trying to get a name for himself so that he gets promoted?? If some Navy Lieutenant commander wrote an article saying we had to redesign all of our submarines or air craft carriers because in HIS opinion or the opinion of a bunch of guys on the internet wed be better off with diesel subs or ww2 era air craft carriers hed get laughed out of the room. Even if he wanted newer more modern stuff being just a major or lieutenant commander he wouldn't even be asked.

    For every low to mid level officer in the military that wants the m16 replaced I can probably find 50 that think what we have works just fine. Like it or not our military can only afford to spend 8 weeks training a new recruit. In that time he has ALOT more to learn then marksmanship. We don't graduate snipers and special forces that have a mastery of every weapon system right out of boot camp. Take a company of army boots. Some of them are women, some are city boys that never shot a gun before, most are kids that maybe hunted deer or rabbits but probably haven't shot a 100 rounds in there life. Put most of them behind a 308 or 06 and have them shoot a couple hundred rounds a day for a week (about what happens in boot camp) and half of them are just going to be afraid of there gun and flinch.

    The 5.56 takes that problem out of the equation. Anyone can shoot one. Its easier to maintain then about any platform used in the military today. An hour of training and about anyone can at least field strip it and clean it. that includes even tearing the bolt down for cleaning. Then we would have to go through the NATO approved thing. Most nato countrys use 5.56 guns. Are you going to force them all to switch? Nato compatiblilty is probably the biggest reason we switched from the 45acp to the 9mm. Do you really think your reinventing the wheel here? Let me ask this. What would you really feel would contribute more toward winning a war? A switch from 556 to something like the 6.8 or buying another air craft carrier or a handful more fighter planes or some more drones that can kill without even exposing our troops to fire.

    Some here don't like it. So what? Navy seals and other special forces guys that can about choose any weapon they want still for the most part grab and ar15 when the going gets tough. I guess I value there opinion over some guys on a cast bullet forum or even my own opinion. Bottom line is no matter what the military decides to do they have to do it in a real big way. We cant have two or three different rounds being used at the same time. Wonder what that would cost? Wonder how much money we have in guns, ammo and parts for m16s out there already that would probably just get destroyed because the liberals sure would balk at selling those full auto weapons to civilians. Or we could give them away to some foreign army that 10 years from now will probably be using them against us.

    Our troops for the most part aren't gun nuts. there not like you and I that live and breath guns. Id bet over half of them never heard of a 300 bo or 6.8. Probably 80 percent of them never shot a o6 or 308 or even a 45 acp. I doubt but a small percentage would trade there m16 for something 3lbs heavier that kicked harder and held less ammo and allowed them to carry less ammo. Shots over 500 yards call up the squad sniper. Need some heavy caliber support bring up the saw gunner. Better yet use your lazer designator and call in the drone or hornet and stay on the other side of the mountain. that's what makes our military one of the most powerful in the world today. The fact that we have technology that others only dream of. We have special forces troops that are the best trained fighting men in the world that have the most sophisticated equipment on the planet.. that's where the future of our military lies. High technology. Why send in a whole company of infantry men with rifles when you can fly over a stealth bomber with smart bombs to level the enemy and be back having a cold one in a couple hours. All this replace the military issue rifle stuff is fun to talk about.

    I'm 62 now and id bet theres not much more then talk that's going to be done until well after they put me in the ground. Even if they do change the issue weapon (m16) id about bet the 5.56 isn't going away. News flash. The military adopted a new handgun. The new sig. Still in 9mm though! News flash. Our police and federal agencys are switching guns. There going back to the 9mm. Not going bigger but going smaller. they too use the m16 and ar15. Don't see the fbi or state police depts. looking to swap out there 5.56 guns for something bigger. Don't see any of them willing to spend $$$ on studies to replace what already works. Last question before I do go for the last time. HOW MANY of you guys here that are bashing the 5.56 or are saying its obsolete actually were in the military and carried one and had it fail for them? How many of you have taken a bullet or watched a buddy take one because a well placed shot with a 5.56 failed to incapacitate the enemy soldier shot by it? How many were special forces guys here that had a choice and left the 5.56 back in the armory because it might cost you your life? Special forces guys are pretty vocal. If they felt we were sending them into harms way with an inadequate rifle id bet they would be screaming from the top of the mountain. But its pretty quiet. that is other then the experts on the internet.Click image for larger version. 

Name:	3ba3a9f93c74a7c71f694653ee5bbdb4.jpg 
Views:	17 
Size:	38.6 KB 
ID:	221647
    Last edited by Lloyd Smale; 06-05-2018 at 06:43 AM.

  13. #193
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Posts
    4,635
    Just remember not to expect more from a weapon than it was designed to deliver.

  14. #194
    Banned
    Join Date
    Aug 2017
    Posts
    340
    OK Lloyd.. Just one more question b4 I'm through... What unit did you serve with?

  15. #195
    Boolit Buddy glockfan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2018
    Location
    partly VT,partly canada
    Posts
    481
    5.56 has its utility at close distance.it lack stoping power at longer range in large open field. how a 40 to 85 grs bullet can display as much terminal stoping power as a 150 to 180 grs bullet at 600+ yards on
    zombies stoned with CAPTAGON ? !!!

    simple math and logics.

  16. #196
    Banned
    Join Date
    Aug 2017
    Posts
    340
    here is an article on just that situation glockfan.. http://articles.latimes.com/2005/jan...fg-iraqdrugs13

    from the article.. ""On the second day of the fight, word came down to focus on head shots, that body shots were not good enough," said 1st Lt. Tim Strabbing, a platoon leader with the 3rd Battalion, 1st Marine Regiment, 1st Marine Division, one of the lead units in the assault to oust the insurgents. The battalion, known as the Thundering Third, suffered 23 dead and 300 wounded.

    Strabbing said his platoon found five locations with stockpiles of needles and adrenaline. "My guys put five [machine gun] rounds into a guy who just stood there and took it and then took off running," he said.

    Stimulants enable the body to continue functioning despite mortal wounds, forestalling, although not preventing, death, medical experts say.

    Many combat veterans recall watching insurgents in Fallouja who had been shot at close range return fire and hurl grenades at Marines who stormed their strongholds.

    "We actually shot four or five guys multiple times and they got up and moved across the room," said corpsman Quinton Brown, who had accompanied a front-line platoon to treat wounded Marines."

  17. #197
    Banned
    Join Date
    Aug 2017
    Posts
    340
    ans here is another article by Maj. Anthony F. Milavic, USMC on the stopping power if the 5.56.. https://www.americanthinker.com/arti...ietnam_ki.html

    from the article.. "American warriors reported enemy soldiers continuing to close and fire their weapons after sustaining multiple hits by 5.56mm bullets."

    also from the article."several Marines commented that they had to shoot Iraqi soldiers 2—3 or more times with the 62—grain 5.56mm green tip ammo before they stopped firing back at them . . ..' That report is exemplified by one of an Iraqi officer who was thrown from his vehicle and set afire by an explosion: 'Somehow he managed to hold on to his AK—47. He also got up, still on fire, faced the firing line of Marines and charged forward firing his weapon from the hip. He didn't hit anyone but two Marines each nailed him with a three round burst from their M—16A2s. One burst hit him immediately above his heart, the other in his belly button. [He] . . . kept right on charging and firing until his magazine was empty. When he got up to the Marines two of them tackled him and rolled him in the sand to put out the fire. . . . He was quickly carried back to the battalion aid station . . .. The surgeons told me he certainly died of burns, but not necessarily from the six 5.56mm wounds . "

    more from the article..."in Mark Bowden's book Black Hawk Down: 'His weapon was the most sophisticated infantry rifle in the world, a customized CAR—15, and he was shooting the army's new 5.56mm green tip round. . . . The bullet made a small, clean hole, and unless it happened to hit the heart or spine, it wasn't enough to stop a man in his tracks. Howe felt he had to hit a guy five or six times just to get his attention."

    these reports of the 5.56 inability to stop a man in his tracks are everywhere. the ability of the 5.56 to kill a person has never been disputed, only the ability of the 5.56 to take the target down fast enough to prevent the target from getting you..
    Last edited by Mauser 98K; 06-05-2018 at 11:33 PM.

  18. #198
    Banned
    Join Date
    Sep 2017
    Posts
    359
    Lloyd Smale,

    in the army, the 11B(infantry) is 13 weeks of basic training. 12B(combat engineer) is 14 weeks of basic training. they don't usually go to AIT.

    everybody else(i think) goes 8 or 9 weeks of basic training and then they go to AIT (advanced individual training).

  19. #199
    Boolit Buddy
    one-eyed fat man's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Elizabethtown, KY
    Posts
    193
    Quote Originally Posted by 500Linebaughbuck View Post
    Lloyd Smale,

    in the army, the 11B(infantry) is 13 weeks of basic training. 12B(combat engineer) is 14 weeks of basic training. they don't usually go to AIT.

    everybody else(i think) goes 8 or 9 weeks of basic training and then they go to AIT (advanced individual training).
    19D (Cavalry scout) training is 16 weeks, 19K (armor crewman aka tanker) is 15 weeks.

  20. #200
    Boolit Master RU shooter's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    SW Pa.
    Posts
    2,928
    I agree and believe all the reports about multi hits with the 22 cal even in the vitals But just like deer or other similar sized animals adrenaline can and will kick in and keep the animal be it deer or human going until the blood pressure drops to zero . I have seen and I'm sure lots of others deer hit with lots bigger calibers take a hit to the heart or lungs and still run quite a ways with the heart turned to mush from an expanding hunting bullet from a 308 or 7 mag ect . Point being don't think a different medium size caliber using ball ammo would have made much difference unless it hits CNS or breaks bone to instantly stop the actions
    If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck!

Page 10 of 12 FirstFirst 123456789101112 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check