MidSouth Shooters SupplyADvertise hereGraf & SonsRotoMetals2
Titan ReloadingStainLess Steel MediaInline FabricationLee Precision

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 33

Thread: The reason that your SKS or AK47 will not group..

  1. #1
    Boolit Master Mauser 98K's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2017
    Posts
    243

    The reason that your SKS or AK47 will not group..

    not sure if this is where this goes or not, but the SKS and the AK47 are military rifles so i figured it was close enough..

    we all love the SKS or the AK47, they are great rifles. they will usually function when all others stop and you cannot beat them to death with a hammer. however, the SKS and the AK47 have gotten a bad reputation as being inaccurate at any range further than 100m. the reason could be the rifle itself, especially if the barrel is worn badly. in most cases it is the ammo used.

    most if not all foreign made SKS and AK47 rifles have either a .310 or a .311 bore, while the variants made in the US usually have a .308 bore. it my or may not be for this reason that most commercial ammo is loaded with undersized bullets in the .308-.309 range. in this case we will be using everyones favorite dirt cheap cartridge, the Wolf 7.62X39mm.. a lot of the cheap military Russian and China ammo have similar problems as the Wolf, but the Wolf cartridge is the one most likely to be encountered when people are shooting the SKS or AK47 so it will be the one talked about. the Wolf ammo is a cheap round that almost always goes bang, so one cannot complain in that department. however, there is a reason it is a cheap cartridge. made to sloppy tolerances, each projectile can vary wildly from .307-.309 in the same lot and box.
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Wolf undersized bullet.jpg 
Views:	41 
Size:	33.4 KB 
ID:	219705

    each projectile can also vary in its diameter. i have seen some pulled 7.62x39mm that was egg shaped and tapered. the bullet was pulled with an inertial puller so that there would be no deformation of the round. this is the most accurate way to pull bullets for checking. the lead core in a lot of pulled rounds were also not fully locked into the jacket and would actually rattle a little bit. this would give rise to inaccuracy itself as the core would move independently of the jacket and throw off the entire rotational stability of the bullet. but the real problem is that sub standard ammo has given rise to the thought process that the AK and SKS are inaccurate and are only good for close range spraying or plinking. in reality, with proper ammo the AK47 and SKS can be as accurate as a 30-30WIN. it takes a properly made projectile of the proper diameter so that the projectile is fully engaged into the rifling and not allowed to become misaligned in the barrel.
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	proper sized bullet...jpg 
Views:	38 
Size:	32.0 KB 
ID:	219706

    this is the reason that when accuracy problems are encountered that one should always compare the ammo to the bore of the rifle b4 blaming the rifle itself. there is no reason the 7.62x39mm cannot be a good accurate round to 300m with the proper matching of the ammo to the rifle..

    another problem encountered with the 7.62x39mm is expansion.. im not sure if it was by the Geneva convention or some other convention that has limited the 7.62x39mm to ammo that will not expand (something to do with no expandable ammo in military arms). most ammo bought today, especially the military ammo and Wolf ammo, will not expand no matter what you do. you can usually fire a Wolf Hollowpoint into ballistics gel and you can almost reload the thing into another cartridge and fire it again, it is that resistant to deformation. this has limited it as a hunting cartridge and self defense round.

    but this is my 2 cents on the 7.62x39mm..

  2. #2
    Boolit Man 458mag's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Haughton Louisiana
    Posts
    133
    That explains why the zombie prep boys always set there zombie sillywet targets at the 25 yard range and still shoot shotgun groups.
    Most folks see a firearm as rifle, pistol, shotgun, ect.... I see a canvas.

  3. #3
    Boolit Master GhostHawk's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Location
    Fargo ND
    Posts
    4,100
    Yep!

    Proper .312 to .314 bullets can make a huge difference. They did in mine.

    Went from minute of 5 gallon bucket at 25 yards to picking off quarter sized pieces of broken clay pigeon at 50.

  4. #4
    Boolit Master




    EMC45's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    East TN Mountains...Thanks be to God!
    Posts
    3,803
    Good write up Mauser. The one time I loaded for the SKS and AK I used proper 123gr. .311 soft point bullets. The SKS was very accurate and the AK not so much.
    You can miss fast & you can miss a lot, but only hits count.

  5. #5
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Mar 2018
    Posts
    193
    Got a 311 noe mold I'm going to try for it

  6. #6
    Boolit Master


    nagantguy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Location
    MI
    Posts
    2,225
    Good write up and confirms my findings as well. As always fit is king. As a side note I e found Silver Bear to be more accurate and consistent from box to box and lot to lot.
    There can also be wide variations between lots and manufacturers in 7.62x54. Again the cure to ring out the accuracy the rifle capable of is to follow the steps,chamber cast slug the bore, polish and scrub every thing possible. My good friend and accuracy nut has an SKS that went from barn door at 50 to 1.5 consistently at 100 with the above steps and sizing his boolits to .3115 The same ammo
    Shoots well in all my 7.62x39 rifles

  7. #7
    Boolit Master gpidaho's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Location
    Beautiful Idaho
    Posts
    1,192
    A properly built 7.62X39 cartridge can be very accurate in a rifle built to tight tolerance. Look at all the times it's been used as the basis for wildcats that have made the grade to factory built loads. My CZ bolt action is a tack driver when you listen to CZ and feed it properly sized ammunition. AKs and SKSs are built to serve a function and that is to go bang under the worst of conditions. If a dirt, mud or sand covered round is going to chamber tolerances need to be LOOSE. This doesn't lead to match grade target accuracy. Gp

  8. #8
    Boolit Master Texas by God's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2016
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    4,472
    Quote Originally Posted by EMC45 View Post
    Good write up Mauser. The one time I loaded for the SKS and AK I used proper 123gr. .311 soft point bullets. The SKS was very accurate and the AK not so much.
    This is my experience. My best load in the SKS featured the Remington rnsp 180gr .311" bullet intended for the .303 British. This was in the 80's before you could buy 123gr .310" component bullets. The Chinese ammo we used back then was little better than Russian ammo today.

    Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

  9. #9
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Location
    Ontario
    Posts
    570
    I think most off shore commericial ammo is .311 like S&B. To be honest its the first time i heard of an SKS with a .308 barrel, but we still get the Chinese and Russian imports up here.

  10. #10
    Boolit Master

    Shiloh's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Upper Midwest
    Posts
    6,420
    The advantage of cast. Adjustable diameters.

    SHiloh
    Je suis Charlie

    "A society of sheep must in time beget a government of wolves."
    Bertrand de Jouvenel

    “Any government that does not trust its citizens with firearms is either a tyranny, or planning to become one.” – Joseph P. Martino

    “If you put the federal government in charge of the Sahara Desert , in five years there would be a shortage of sand.” – Milton Friedman

    "Ideas are more powerful than guns. We would not let our enemies have guns; why should we let them have ideas?" - J. Stalin

  11. #11
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Posts
    352
    I recently discovered why my recently aquired Mosin-Nagant shot basketball groups at 100yds.
    The bore mikes .3115” x .3119”, so call it a .312” bore.
    I checked some Czech 148gr FMJ that miked .308” and Russian 182gr at .3095”. I pulled the bullets and substituted 150gr Hornady and 174gr Hornady .312” bullets and got golf ball sized groups. BIG difference.

    After multiple cleanings and fire lapping the bore, it’s now shooting 2-2.5” groups with .314” cast bullets at over 2,000fps.
    Last edited by GooseGestapo; 05-18-2018 at 05:12 PM.

  12. #12
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Eureka MT
    Posts
    913
    My sks would not hit a 2 foot square target every time at 50yds. Some bullets were going through sideways and some missed completely. After checking the gun carefully, I found the crown looked like it may have been cut with a spoon. I cut about 1/4" from the end and used a round head brass screw and some valve grinding compound to recrown it. I shoots 123gr .311 bullets to 3"" at 100 now. Not exactly match grade but good enough for what it is.

  13. #13
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Posts
    4,468
    The Hornady .312 150 gr bullets work great in the 7.62X54R, if they can be seated to the proper COAL they should work very nicely in a AK or SKS with the properly balanced charge.

  14. #14
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Location
    Ontario
    Posts
    570
    Quote Originally Posted by rbuck351 View Post
    My sks would not hit a 2 foot square target every time at 50yds. Some bullets were going through sideways and some missed completely. After checking the gun carefully, I found the crown looked like it may have been cut with a spoon. I cut about 1/4" from the end and used a round head brass screw and some valve grinding compound to recrown it. I shoots 123gr .311 bullets to 3"" at 100 now. Not exactly match grade but good enough for what it is.
    I bought a crowning tool. It improved on SKS while it did nothing for another.

  15. #15
    Boolit Master RU shooter's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    SW Pa.
    Posts
    1,693
    That overly large chamber don't help any either !i can only imagine how misaligned that factory spec ctg./bullet is to the bore , I know when I only do a partial resize of the case accuracy improves greatly . Just for kicks take a couple measurements of a unfired factory rd vs a fired one .
    If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck!

  16. #16
    Boolit Master GhostHawk's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Location
    Fargo ND
    Posts
    4,100
    I pulled apart 20 rounds of Tulammo once (mexican match, used my cast and 4895)

    Just out of curiousity I weighed each bullet, and each powder charge.

    Bullets were not too bad, most were in a 5 grain range from low to high.

    Powder was a 4 grain range light to heavy. Combine those two together, you get a light load with a heavy bullet that shoots low. Next up is a light bullet with a heavy load that shoots high. You get the picture.

    I have bought no more Tulammo period.

    With moderate loads of IMR 4895 and my cast bullets accuracy improved dramatically.
    No more cheap factory loads for my sks. You get what you pay for.

    A little bedding work in the stock does not hurt any either IMO.

  17. #17
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Mar 2015
    Location
    No matter where you go, there you are.
    Posts
    164
    Quote Originally Posted by Mauser 98K View Post
    not sure if this is where this goes or not, but the SKS and the AK47 are military rifles so i figured it was close enough..
    So the poor accuracy of the SKS and AK is because of the ammo? Well...

    I can take that cheap Wolf FMJ ammo and shoot it in my CZ 527 Carbine and group just fine. 1.5-2” at 100 yards with iron sights all day long. I installed a Skinner peep sight on the receiver which also increases sight radius compared to the factory V notch sight on the barrel. Now, one could suggest I just happen to get a better batch of ammo combined with the peep sight to get this kind of accuracy but I read the same report from those who have a 527 in 7.62x39 so it’s not an anomaly. But the Wolf soft points group in the 2-3” range with the same rifle. I can’t complain though at the low price.

    So, unless you try the same ammo in a rifle capable of better accuracy you shouldn’t blame the ammo.

    Oh, and no, I don’t love the SKS or AK nor do I think they are great rifles. Functional? Yes. Great? No.
    Last edited by tbx-4; 05-15-2018 at 11:38 PM.

  18. #18
    Boolit Master Mauser 98K's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2017
    Posts
    243
    What does the bore on your cz 527 measure? And just because one round will do good in one rifles does not mean it will do good in another. There are too many factors in play to make that judgement.

  19. #19
    Boolit Master gpidaho's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Location
    Beautiful Idaho
    Posts
    1,192
    My CZ 527 7.62X39 slugs a tight .301X.312 and has good accuracy with either .313 or .314 cast bullets. Gp Edit: The owners manual for the 527 says it will not shoot .308 bullets worth beans. They were purpose built to take advantage of cheap surplus Russian ammo. None the less I refuse to run that steel cased ****** Ammo through a fine little carbine. Gp
    Last edited by gpidaho; 05-16-2018 at 05:12 PM.

  20. #20
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Mar 2015
    Location
    No matter where you go, there you are.
    Posts
    164
    Mauser,
    My response is to your first post and premise to this thread, that is 7.62x39 Wolf ammo is one of the main contributing factors to the SKS and AKs poor accuracy.

    You are blaming the ammo for the rifle’s inherent inaccuracy. Because when the same ammo is used in a rifle designed to CIP standards and built just for the cheap ammo, it performs better than the price of the ammo would suggest. So much so that it’s at least as good as factory ammo from the US. So it’s a false premise to blame the ammo.
    And this isn’t just one rifle, its all CZ 527 rifles in 7.62x39 perform this good with the Wolf ammo.
    Also, unless specially built or cast bullets sized to the bore and hand loaded, all SKS and AKs have poor accuracy. But they were not meant to shoot MOA or even close.

    Don’t take it personally because it’s not meant to be.
    Last edited by tbx-4; 05-17-2018 at 04:23 PM.

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check