I am in France and the Lyman Cast Boolit Handbook doesn’t have The powders available here listed. The powders here rarely have cast boolits listed. Is there a rule of thumb for decreasing the load from a jacked bullet to a lead boolit of the same weight?
Thanks
I like to start about 10% less than the starting load for Jacketed bullets
If I have a recommended starting load for a jacketed bullet of the same weight, I use that as my starting load for a cast bullet. Cast and jacketed don't, of course, behave the same, but the starting loads are generally safe enough. Not necessarily the maximum loads, but you can work up to them carefully.
Hick: Iron sights!
The two members above have given good advice.
Thanks everyone.
ADI powders has a chart that will list equivalents powders. Shooters World Powders also has a chart that list their equivalents. If i am not mistaken some where on here is a chart that list equal and equivalent powders. Like Reloader Seven and 4198 are not equal but are equivalent within 5%. I have never been able to get a jacketed bullet powder to work. I do have two pounds of H4895 here to experiment with because Hogdon says it can be safely reduced by 60%. If you want a more in-depth article to read and have some safety involved with reducing jacketed loads, then get a copy of Richard Lee's Modern Reloader 2dn Revision. He has a great article about reducing loads and gives you some math to help you get safely in the ball park.
"Speak softly and carry a big stick; you will go far."
~Theodore Roosevelt~
Should I get a slower burning powder for cast boolit than the recommended powder for a jacketed bullet?
No need for that.
That would depend on your power goals for your load.Originally Posted by GregLaROCHE
Typically, I prefer to go with a faster burning powder, since I generally load lighter loads for cast, than I do with jacketed, and lighter loads shoot better with a faster powder.
that's my 2¢
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
“If someone has a gun and is trying to kill you, it would be reasonable to shoot back with your own gun.”
― The Dalai Lama, Seattle Times, May 2001
Improvised Materials and Methods for Loading Unknown Powders In Hard Times
- aka Reloading "Partisan Style."
As told to Outpost75 by "Il Lupi De Cavitore"
In some center-fire rifles, handguns and ammunition are heavily regulated, and shotguns are much easier to obtain. Modern rifle powders, rifle and pistol primers are almost impossible to obtain "legally" in places like Mexico or Brazil. Shotgun components such as powder, shot and shotgun primers are more likely available without resorting to the Black Market. Resourceful hunters, farmers and outdoorsmen can reload reduced load metallic cartridges using expedient methods and loads as were common in the US during the Great Depression, post WW2 Europe and which are still common throughout the Third World.
There are four basic considerations which must be met:
First, the powder must ignite safely and generate uniform velocities at low loading density, given the large free airspace resulting from using small charges in a typical rifle cartridge case. Typical flake shotgun powders ignite easily and burn uniformly under oading such conditions and present no serious issues for the reduced load utility purpose. In particular, the shotgun powders used in 12-ga. and 16-ga. field or target loads are very well suited for loading most common pistol and revolver calibers, as well as for assembling small game loads in “deer” and military rifles. Whenever using shotgun or pistol powders, due caution is required to determine a safe and suitable powder charge.
Second, the reduce powder charge must safely and reliably expel the bullet from the barrel! Salvaging rifle powder recovered from pulled-down, full charge military or sporting center-fire rifle ammunition and using it in greatly reduced charges of less than 75% of a full load can be dangerous. Extruded "tubular" powders are more forgiving than spheroidal or "ball" powders in this respect. A friend in Africa successfully pulled down 7.62x39 ammunition, salvaging the powder and pulled bullets, using the components to load cartridges for his .303 Enfield, using a 7.62x39 case as the .303 powder measure, and used those rounds to shoot plains game for biltong. The "contraband" 7.62x39 ammunition which was illegal because he didn't have a rifle of that caliber listed on his Firearms Certificate, was then rendered "safe" and after having cooked off the primed cases in the fire he was able to sell the brass scrap and use the money to buy rifle primers for his registered and legal .303!
Ignition may be erratic if the bullet weight used is very much less than in service rounds, particularly if a reduced powder charge fills less than 2/3 of cartridge case capacity. My friend had good results using recovered 7.62x39 components from ammunition loaded with "extruded" tubular powder. But attempting to do so with a different lot of cartridges loaded with a "ball" powder stuck a bullet in the barrel!
Most of the time a fired 7.62x39mm case filled to its mouth with ordinary extruded military rifle powder makes a good dip measure to assemble “medium velocity” ammunition for the .303 British, 7.62x54R, 7.62mm NATO, .30-’06 or 8mm Mauser, using either gaschecked cast or pulled down jacketed bullets. Such cartridges will produce energy similar to the .30-30 or 7.62x39 and are suitable for home defense and most hunting, while conserving your rare and expensive factory loads.
A .38 Special, .357 Magnum or US .30 M1 carbine case used similarly produces lower power 5.56 or 7.62x39 rounds approximating .22 Hornet or .32-20 ballistics for small game shooting.
Third, the reduced power rifle cartridge must still have sufficient power and accuracy to improve upon the accuracy and effectiveness of a revolver or pistol. In the developing world reduced power, low noise, low recoil rifle loads are best discreetly foraging game without attracting unwanted attention, and for home or farm defence or guard purposes to reduce the risk of collateral damage in settled areas. Their intended effective range is 25 metres or so. In the best case, a “Cat Sneeze” round can dispatch small game for the pot in almost complete silence from a rifle-length barrel and is suitably accurate to kill marauding feral dogs, coyotes or foxes out to 50 metres!
Finally, the “Hard Times Hunter” must load VERY cautiously, the powder charge when fast-burning shotgun powders are used, being such that even an inadvertent “double charge” at worst will only "blow" a primer and perhaps cause hard bolt opening as a warning, but will not cause escape of powder gases, or a ruptured cartridge case which could injure the shooter, permanently damage a rifle or in the worst case, “blow it up!”
The key to exploiting salvaged powder, is to be both frugal and careful. The best salvaged powders are recovered from pulled down misfired shotgun or pistol rounds. Use the minimum powder charge which ignites reliably and expels the bullet from the barrel, producing acceptable short range accuracy to kill small game. Listen for a uniform report and check the bore if a shot does not “sound right” or if you do not observe the bullet strike. Subsonic loads with lead buckshot or lubricated lead pistol bullets of suitable diameter, or plain-based cast lead bullets without a gas-check, using the minimum charge producing good accuracy fit the requirement.
Reduced RIFLE loads using metal JACKETED bullets must attain about 300 m/s (980 fps), and revolver or pistol ammunition 230 m/s (750 fps) to be confident of reliable bore exit, so that you need not worry about lodging a bullet in the barrel. Soft lead, lubricated bullets have much less bore drag and can be loaded as slow as 200 m/s (650 fps) and exit either rifle or revolver barrels reliably, while producing very low noise. When assembling “Cat Sneeze” loads great care is required to prevent inadvertent double charges! Use a powder measure and visually inspect every case with a penlight ensuring no accidental spilled or double-charges.
Exploiting improvised materials and methods were common in Depression-era America and postwar Europe because dirt poor peasant farmers and poachers had to "make do." Doing so as is still in much of South America and Africa. When ammunition and reloading components were scarce during, and for some years after WW2 in Europe, frugal hunters improvised big game loads by opening bird shot rounds, remelting the lead and crudely casting buckshot in fisherman’s lead sinker molds, then inserting them and reclosing the shell. Poachers blended and combined all gleaned, salvaged powder from multiple sources together. During wartime this witches brew included black powder taken from artillery igniter packs, smokeless powder recovered from misfired .22 rimfire, 9mm, 7.65mm or .45 pistol rounds, swollen paper shotgun cartridges and even 81mm or 60mm mortar boosters!
(These days the recommended practice is to test charges for the unknown Euro powder based upon listed data for a similar burning US powder, the "fast" group being Bullseye, TiteGroup, 700X, Red Dot, and the "medium" group being Unique, Universal, Herco, WSF and then check with a chronograph!).
Weighed powder charges carefully gleaned from disassembled 12-ga. or 16-ga. shotgun shells served as a baseline for estimating useable charges for most common sporting and military rifle calibers. A typical 12-ga. charge used in old-fashioned paper shells assembled with card and vegetable fiber wadding, common before about 1960 was 1.5 grams (23 grains) of a fast-burning flaked smokeless powder similar in composition and burning rate to modern Vectan, D20 or GM3, Cheddite Granular, Red Dot, Green Dot or 700X. In modern plastic shells using one-piece plastic wad columns, the equivalent charge is 1.2-1.3 grams (18-20 grains) of a denser spheroidal powder similar to Vectan AS, Cheddite Drago, TiteGroup, W231, or WST.
A powder very widely salvaged by postwar Europeans was obtained from US 60mm mortar shell boosters, a Hercules flake powder, called “Infallible,” being very similar in burning rate and composition to modern “duck load” powders such as Unique, Universal, Herco, PB, or WSF.
During wartime a poacher would conduct simple empirical tests with a battlefield pickup rifle, and fashion a dip measure from an empty 9mm Parabellum pistol case. The rifle would be tied to a tree, a LONG string attached to the trigger, then from a safe distance the careful partisan experimenter would wait for a thunderstorm to conceal the report of the rifle before jerking the lanyard! If the gun made a satisfying BANG~!, the bolt opened easily, the case looked normal and the primer didn’t fall out, it was a “good” load and it was then time to load five more rounds to go look for camp meat to bring home!
1/4 of a 12-ga. charge works well for a "Cat Sneeze" load with lead bullets in typical "deer rifle" calibers, and as a full-charge load for large caliber handguns such as the .357 and Magnum, .44-40 or .45 Colt
1/3 of a 12-ga. charge will reliably expel a standard weight jacketed bullet from the bore of a .303 British, 7.62x54R, 8mm Mauser or .30-'06. This volume should not be exceeded in weaker rifles like the Lee Enfields, converted Vetterlis or '88 Mauser Commission rifles.
1/2 of the 12-ga. charge makes a heavier jacketed load for strong-actioned rifles such as the Mosin-Nagant, US Springfield, P14 and USA M1917 Enfield, '98 Mauser and modern sporting rifles, approximating .32-40 Winchester ballistics in the 7.62 NATO, 7.62x54R, .30'06 or 8mm, or a mild smokeless load for large bore hunting rifles using lead bullets in cartridges such as the .348 Winchester, .35 Whelen, .375 H&H, .444 Marlin or .45-70.
A fired .32 ACP cartridge case makes a dip measure which throws about 6 grains of Bullseye, 6.5 grains of 231, or 4.2 grains of Red Dot which produce safe and satisfactory minimum small game loads with standard weight jacketed bullet for small capacity military rifles from the 5.56, and .300 Blackout to the 7.62x39. These light charges work great for low noise “Cat Sneeze” loads with soft lubricated lead bullets in the 7.62 NATO, 7.62x54R Russian, .30-’06 or 8mm Mauser. Very light charges might not reliably expel jacketed bullets, so check the bore if anything sounds abnormal or you don't see the impact. A Brownell's Squibb Rod turned onto a Dewey cleaning rod and tapped lightly and persistently with a dead blow lead hammer is the safe way to remove a stuck jacketed bullet, after flooding the bore with Kroil.
A fired 9mm Parabellum case makes a dip measure which throws about 8.2 grains of Bullseye, 7.5 grains of Unique or Granular Cheddite, 7 grains of Hodgdon Universal or 10 grains of Vectan GM3, TiteGroup, WSL or WSF. These powders are best for loading reduced loads with jacketed bullets in cases of 7.62 NATO, .303 British and larger.
To load lubricated lead bullets use the same 9mm dip measure to drop about 7 grains of PB, 5.5 grains of Red Dot, 6 grains of 700-X or Hodgdon Clays, or 6.5 grains of Herco, for subsonic, lead-bullet “Cat Sneeze” in the 7.62 NATO to .30-’06 and 8mm Mauser.
To reload fired Berdan cases for reduced loads, the firing pin indent of the fired Berdan primer cup is drilled entirely through the solid web of the cartridge case using a 50 Gage (1.8mm) drill. The hole drilled in the primer cup then carefully is enlarged with a 6 gage (5.2mm) drill, taking care to not remove metal in the web of the case, other than any radius remaining of the Berdan primer "anvil" formed in the case head.
If all you have are large pistol primers, these can be safely used in very light rifle loads, instead of rifle primers. Indeed, the thinner cup of a pistol primer gives an indication of pressure, because if a pistol primer flattens, punctures or leaks in firing a reduced rifle load, you know that you have used too much powder! If you went too far with the 6 gage drill so that standard rifle or pistol primers fit too deep or loosely, all is not lost. Convert the case to use shotshell primers, which may be more common in some places, by running the 6 gage drill entirely through the case web. While supporting the interior of the case with a piece of pipe, swage the primer pocket to shape using a cone shaped mandrel made from the shank of a # 14 flat head wood screw to reshape the pocket to accept a 209 size shotshell primer. Select a screw whose shank is of full dimension, then cut off the threads. With a patience and practice you can chuck the remains of the screw in a hand drill and radius the cutoff end with a bench grinder. This takes some fussing, but you only need to make one. To use the mandrel, insert a short piece of pipe into the new hull and drive it over the mandrel with a hammer. Whack it hard enough to allow a new shotshell primer to seat flush with the base of the hull. Fired cases reloaded with shotshell primers are easily deprimed using a piece of ¼” rod and a mallet.
(Cases converted to use shotshell primers can be used safely only with light loads below 1500 fps, never for full charges!)
Bulk lubing of cast bullets or buckshot is done most easily using Lee Liquid Alox. Dilute scarce commercial lubes with equal parts of mineral spirits or paint thinner to make it go farther. You need very little bullet lube in subsonic loads. A practical expedient bullet lube is to dissolve dried up odds and ends paste floor wax or shoe polish in equal parts by liquid volume of mineral spirits, tumbling on the same way. In casting buckshot or light bullets for low velocity loads you do not need or even want hard alloy. Any soft scrap lead you can scratch with your thumbnail which casts well is fine.
To use lead buckshot for for assembling “Cat Sneeze” loads, common US 00 or British SG buckshot is nominally .33” diameter and is too large to load in .30 cal. rifles unless sized first. Unsized will works in the 7.9mm Mauser. To improvise a .30 cal. sizing die take a 1 cm thick piece of aluminum, brass or mild steel plate. Drill a 7mm pilot hole entirely through the plate, then enlarge the pilot hole with a 7.5mm or in stages successively with a 7.8mm or US M or N letter drill, then finally with a US 5/16" or 7.9mm nominally .3110-.3125". Then countersink, deburr and polish the chamfered hole with emery cloth. I recommend drilling a 1 cm or 3/8" hole through your bench top and then attaching a threaded jar lid with matching hole under your work bench to catch the sized buckshot.
Position and C-clamp your improvised plate sizer die over the hole, lightly oil your buckshot, drop them one at a time onto the countersunk hole, and smack each through with a 7.5mm or 5/16" punch and a plastic hammer into your storage jar. This works for .32 pistol bullets too! A 5/16" hole works fine for .32 ACP, S&W Long and .32-20.
US 0 or Italian 10/0 buckshot is about .32 inch and fits snugly in a fired 7.62mm or .30 cal. case neck. They usually chamber easily IF your seating die reduces the outside case neck diameter to about .340" or so. 0 buckshot works very well in .32 revolvers and pistols and in “near .30 caliber” rifle cases such as the .310 Cadet, .303 British and 7.62x39 or 7.62x54R.
US #1 or British Special Sg buckshot is nominally .30 caliber, but due to loose tolerances on buckshot, may be too small to effectively take the rifling. If too small to fit tightly into the cartridge case, smack it lightly against a steel plate with your plastic hammer, then run it through the sizer die to make little lead “hockey pucks” which can be stacked in pairs in a .30-’06 or 7.62x54 case, or loaded singly in the 7.62x39, .303 British or 7.62 NATO.
I recommend 0 buckshot for assembling small game loads, using the buckshot straight out of the bag as-is. If all you have is 00, run it through a .311"-.313" sizer die first.
A dip measure fashioned from a .22 Long Rifle fired case throws about 3 grains of Bullseye, 2.8 grains of Unique, 3.2 grains of 231, Hodgdon Universal, or HP38, or 4 grains of Vectan AS, TiteGroup or WSL. This represents about the minimum powder charge which reliably expels a buckshot reliably from a rifle barrel in larger cases such as the .303 British, 7.62 NATO, 7.62x54R, .30-'06 and 8mm Mauser. It makes a quiet and effective, good short range small game load for use within 25 yards. The same charge can be used safely in small rifle cases such as the 7.62x39, and .30-30, but will be a bit louder.
You can safely substitute soft lead .32 pistol or revolver bullets of 100 grains or less. A heavier lead or any jacketed bullet, may "stick" in the bore when attempting “Cat Sneeze.” Lightly oiling the bore, then removing the excess oil with one dry patch reduces risk of this.
To load buckshot simply, decap your fired cases with an icepick. Reprime by placing a fresh primer open face up on a clean, flat steel plate, centering the primer pocket over the primer, GENTLY tapping the primer in by inserting a 1/4", non-sparking brass rod through the case neck until it rests against the inside solid web of the case head, (or ¼” ID pipe if using shotshell primers), urging the primer into its pocket with a few light taps of a plastic hammer, until it is flush with the case head.
Use needle-nosed pliers to gently reshape any dents in the case mouth, until it is round. Use a countersink turned with the fingers to gently inside deburr the inside wire edge of the case mouth. Solder an empty .22 LR case onto a bent copper wire to serve as a powder measure.
Measure powder charges by pouring about ½ cup of powder at a time into a small coffee cup or jar, filling the dip measure by pushing it down into the powder and letting the powder flow into the measure of its own weight, by gravity only. Slowly raise the measure up over the mouth of the jar, then strike the powder level across the top of the measure with a pen knife, razor blade or card. Then carefully pour the measured powder charge into your primed case. Start the sized buckshot into the case mouth with your thumb. If necessary, place the case head against a block of wood and gently tap the buckshot flush with the case mouth using your plastic hammer. Smear any available fat, grease, wax or tallow over the ball to fill the gap between the case mouth and the radius of the seated ball. This lubricates the bullet. Also smear a thin film around and over the primer to waterproof the cartridge.
If your rifle is sighted in for full charge hunting or military ammunition, try the buckshot load using the same sight setting at 50 feet. If you can hit a bottle cap at 50 feet with that sight setting, you are done.
It is common for very light loads to hit “low.” If sight adjustment is needed to hit your target, raise the rear sight a notch at a time and then try again. A realistic accuracy expectation firing typical milsurp rifles with iron sights is a to hit a wine cork or bottle cap at 20 metres, a Bega cheese tin at 25 metres or a 500ml Lager can at 50 metres. Scoped hunting rifles will do much better! My scoped Mosin-Nagants are good enough for silent 100 metre, 10cm five-shot groups or better, with either buckshot or cast lead .32 ACP bullets with nearly silent Cat Sneeze loads , using 500 metre sight dope for full charge jacketed loads.
Last edited by Outpost75; 05-03-2018 at 11:12 AM.
The ENEMY is listening.
HE wants to know what YOU know.
Keep it to yourself.
I have had no issues using starting jacketed data for lead bullets, you just get a bit more vel out of the lead. Just work it up or down as needed.
EVERY GOOD SHOOTER NEEDS TO BE A HANDLOADER.
NRA Cert. Inst. Met. Reloading & Basic Pistol
I have decided on Vihtavuori’s N160 Powder. https://www.vihtavuori.com/powder/n160-rifle-powder/ I am shooting a1900 Swedish 6.5x55se. It was rebarreled In the 60s to be used as a target rifle. Now known as a CG 63.
I have cast 6.5mm 140grain boolits from an RCBS mould, that I plan to gas check and tumble in liquid Alox. My alloy is range scrap and I water quench after casting.
Someone using the same boolit in the same round says he uses a Powder charge 20.0gn Rel 7 .
I can’t get that here. The Vihtavuori’s N160 rifle powder I plan to use has velocities over 2000 f/s. for starting loads. I feel that is too high to start with especially since my alloy is not that hard.
How many grains of Vihtavuori’s N160 should I start with?
Outpost 75 great post. I am glad we in the states don’t have a problem yet of finding powder primers and reloading components. A few years ago that was the problem finding anything in my area. Your info in times like this is priceless.
Have found the data for vihtavuori powders. However, the starting loads for jacketed bullets produce close to 2500 ft/sec velocity. Isn’t that too fast for a cast boolit? Especially just starting and with an alloy that’s not that hard?
As outpost 75 has shown, ask the correct question and you get the correct answer. My Speer reloading manual number 12, lists 45.5gr of Viht N160 behind a 140gr jacketed for 2,630fps and 41.5gr for 2,398fps. This powder is at the slower end of the Viht line and if it were me I would try around 38gr of that powder and see where I was. Your comment that the cast you are using are not very hard does not tell us much as we don't know what you consider hard. I consider pure lead soft wheel weights with a little tin added as middle of the road and Lino type as hard. I would consider wheel weights alloy to be able to take around the 2,200fps with the correct fit and lube. Regards Stephen
you mention RL7 used by someone, that would be a powder I would try for plinking 6.5x55 with a WD range scrap alloy. AND, that powder is a lot faster than N160. N133 is near the burn rate of RL7, so if I was to use a Vihtavuori powder, I'd try N133. I would search out a load (or extrapolate one) the moves the 140gr boolit around 1600fps.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
“If someone has a gun and is trying to kill you, it would be reasonable to shoot back with your own gun.”
― The Dalai Lama, Seattle Times, May 2001
1600 FPS is much closer to what I was thinking. I would love to get my hands on RL7, but it’s just not available here.
I started with Vectan Tu 3000 powder because they had a load for my .45-70 405gr lead boolit. I bought some Vectan SP 11 for the 6.5x55se 140 gr jacketed bullets. The problem with Vectan is they give very info and their email address is no good. And no phone number.
Using my fingernail, my alloy is harder then pure lead, but I don’t think as hard as WWs. Maybe after quenching them. Certainly not as hard as linotype. I wanted to try the pencil test, but you just can’t find a selection of them here. Maybe I need to buy a Lee BHN tester.
A friend of mine happened to be in the big city. Three hours from here. So I asked him to pick me up some powder. I had to make a decision and from what I found, Viht N160 seemed to be the best for a 6.5x55swedish.
Am I better off using one of the other powders? Vectan Tu 3000 or Vectan Sp11.
Just to let you know. A pound of powder costs over fifty bucks here and you have to have a license, up dated each year plus a doctors signature that you’re not nuts. Plus to ship a pound of powder if I buy from the internet, the minimum shipping charge is over thirty bucks. When I lived in the US, I’d just walk into a gun shop and buy a few cans of different ones. Not so easy here!
So how many grains of which of these three powders should I start with?
Last edited by GregLaROCHE; 05-04-2018 at 11:32 AM.
OK, I have just tumbled. 100 plus in Lee Liquid Alox. I will gas check them tomorrow and
Another coat. Just to be sure.
Still don’t know how much powder to put in them.
Otherwise, you could I’ll tie it to an oak tree with a string an see what it does.
Greg
It's tough to find comparison burn rate charts that include Vectan.
http://www.lapua.com/upload/reloadin...echart2011.pdf
according to this one (only one I could find), Vectan Tu 3000 is close to N133
and Vectan Sp11 is close to N160
If I were to load some WD range scrap alloy 140gr boolits in 6.5x55 I would try Vectan Tu 3000 or N133. If you are unable to find data for starting charges for about 1600fps, you will have to extrapolate from jacketed bullet data. That is something I would not leave to anyone else, but the shooter.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
“If someone has a gun and is trying to kill you, it would be reasonable to shoot back with your own gun.”
― The Dalai Lama, Seattle Times, May 2001
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