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Thread: Looking for best methods for making Point Form Dies accurately every time

  1. #21
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by Traffer View Post
    I am not familiar with that attachment. What does it attach to? Is is infinitely variable in order to set it up for bullet point tips?
    It is an old tool designed to sharpen drill bits. It holds the bit at an adjustable length has an adjustable angle. The bit held in place swings across a grinding wheel in a sweeping action grinding off enough to renew the cutting edge. It is what you are doing by hand and by eye. My thought was just increase the angle going to a point. I will check mine put and see if there any any problems doing this. This old tool is the best cheap way I know of to sharpen drill bits short of a very expensive commercial sharpening system. Since the bit length is held in place by the tool both the flutes are cut equal.
    Here is one in operation:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N-bamSFY3mc

  2. #22
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    This tool will not grind a curve or ogive. If you were very good with it I imagine you might be able to grind a truncated cone. It would need to have a step with a face like an end mill after the conical tip then another angle for the bottom of the bullet.
    As far as grinding regular drill bits, Once you get the hang of doing them by hand it is faster than using a machine or jig to hold the drill. I have been doing very small work all of my life. I am to the point that I can sharpen a .5 MM drill bit by hand. I use eight power glasses or a 10 power loupe for those little guys.
    Grinding tools is a very fun challenge for me. I recently ground a drill bit from a piece of drill rod ...by hand without a jig.
    I have also ground end mills. Not good enough to grind reamers. I can however stone them.
    It saves a lot of money. Especially when a person can buy dull end mills for next to nothing....I look on eBay for used carbide end mills that need sharpening.
    I can't do as good of a job as new but I get them to work well for me.
    Last edited by Traffer; 10-22-2018 at 01:45 PM.
    AKA hans.pcguy

  3. #23
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    GONRA's Eccentric Spindle Indexer Tooling is "just that". RADIAL RELIEF!!!

    You would to have to ADD ogive FORM tooling.
    "You never get something for nothing"..
    Last edited by GONRA; 07-16-2018 at 06:42 PM.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by GONRA View Post
    GONRA's Eccentric Spindle Indexer Tooling is "just that". RADIAL RELIEF!!!

    You would to have to ADD ogive FORM tooling. "You never get something for nothing"..
    The tool I was referring to in post #22 is the drill bit sharpener mentioned by Dragonheart. My post was to emphasize the fact that it was the ogive that was the difficult part to grind. And indeed it is. As Gonra knows, grinding curves requires more sophisticated jiggery than comes with a typical drill bit sharpener.
    AKA hans.pcguy

  5. #25
    Boolit Master
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    [QUOTE=Traffer;4408155]This tool will not grind a curve or ogive. If you were very good with it I imagine you might be able to grind a truncated cone. It would need to have a step with a face like an end mill after the conical tip then another angle for the bottom of the bullet.

    Actually, what I am interested in is swaging cast bore rider rifle bullets, which would have a truncated cone. It would appear this would be an easier forming die to make. My quest is to reshape a cast bullet to make it concentric.

  6. #26
    Boolit Master
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    [QUOTE=Dragonheart;4419076]
    Quote Originally Posted by Traffer View Post
    This tool will not grind a curve or ogive. If you were very good with it I imagine you might be able to grind a truncated cone. It would need to have a step with a face like an end mill after the conical tip then another angle for the bottom of the bullet.

    Actually, what I am interested in is swaging cast bore rider rifle bullets, which would have a truncated cone. It would appear this would be an easier forming die to make. My quest is to reshape a cast bullet to make it concentric.
    As I understand it, a bore rider is a banded bullet. It would be insanely difficult to swage a banded bullet. You would need a multi piece die setup. It is hard enough to make the heel on a 22 rimfire. I would suggest instead of swaging your boolits, you look into cannelure tools and knurling tools. They could be modified to roll the bands into the bullet and the rolling action would also "round up" the diameter to a concentricity. Here is an example of one that Corbin makes. I believe it would be possible to change the engraving roller to rollers with bands to make the desired boolits. Corbin states that this machine will knurl only soft lead. So I would imagine that since the groove bands would require considerably more pressure to form, the machine itself would have to be redesigned to be stronger and have more leverage. But I have no doubt that it would work. http://www.corbins.com/hct-2.htm
    There are also roll sizers for brass. In my opinion these could easily be modified to roll consistent, concentric bore rider bullets also. In fact I am in the process of making a similar machine that will crimp 22lr rounds. Commercial 22 rimfire is crimped, knurled, and final sized on similar machines. They use rotating ones like Whiteheads design that are larger but same principle. Here are a couple of videos, you can see how this would work. Unfortunately they are expensive and would be hard to build on your own. I don't have a milling machine and trying to make something like this with files, hacksaws and a drill press is proving to be extremely challenging. Now I could be wrong about these type of machines being able to produce bore rider boolits. But it seems logical to me.
    https://youtu.be/7NrKOTFoOrM
    https://youtu.be/PMgy4ur2FT0
    https://youtu.be/aPiK06wIS68
    AKA hans.pcguy

  7. #27
    Boolit Master

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    I just have to ask, banded before swaging? or banded after swaging?
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  8. #28
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    Dual diameter (bore rider) point form die would not be that difficult to make or use. The length of the riding (smaller diameter) portion would be constant but the larger diameter of the base of the bullet would change depending on weight of bullet.

    Sure it would take a custom reamer but that isn't difficult. Or it would be as simple as....... for example a 30 cal bore rider..... you need a .300" point form die and then bore/ream the first part of the die up to .309"

    Fairly simple design to put together for swaging lead boolits.

    BT
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  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by BT Sniper View Post
    Dual diameter (bore rider) point form die would not be that difficult to make or use. The length of the riding (smaller diameter) portion would be constant but the larger diameter of the base of the bullet would change depending on weight of bullet.

    Sure it would take a custom reamer but that isn't difficult. Or it would be as simple as....... for example a 30 cal bore rider..... you need a .300" point form die and then bore/ream the first part of the die up to .309"

    Fairly simple design to put together for swaging lead boolits.

    BT
    I was assuming more than two bands. I believe that would require something different. But I really no nothing about bore riding bullets.
    AKA hans.pcguy

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by clodhopper View Post
    I just have to ask, banded before swaging? or banded after swaging?
    If there were to be a band of smaller diameter in the middle, it would be difficult. I believe that the rolling would be the last step after swaging.
    This is all hypothetical. I have not made anything like this yet. I make 22lr swaging dies and and am in the process of making a roll sizing type of crimper.
    BT Sniper is the expert on machining and swaging. He has the experience and tools. I am a noob with a lot of ideas, very few tools and crude uneducated techniques.
    AKA hans.pcguy

  11. #31
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    From years of experience grinding tools and job shop machinist.

    The basics are to dress a radius on a grinding wheel, then spin the tool and press it to the grinding wheel.

    A simple radius is the easiest way...you can even make your own tool to swing a single point diamond dresser to create the radius.

    A toolpost grinder might work....a surface grinder is what we used in shops where we had one, a tool and cutter grinder when I worked in a tool and cutter grind shop. I'd probably rough turn, flute, heat treat, then spin the form on.

    Once you have your form you can black it up with a sharpie and back it off to a hair land, most shops I have worked in had one of these...

    https://portal-images.azureedge.net/...pg?w=540&h=360

    The tool could be held in a vee block and the angle set (7 degree primary usually) and you work at it carefully by hand until just a hair of the original form remains. Thinking out loud here I bet a small belt sander could be carefully used the same way.

    For ease of getting the form clear around to the pilot, I might make the pilot fit into a hole through the center, so you can remove it to create and sharpen the tool, then slide it in later.

    Any helix greatly complicates things...straight flute will be easiest.

    There was a grinder type made that was perfect for all of this stuff.

    http://img0112.popscreencdn.com/1622...grinder-w-.jpg

    They are floating around out there in the world in a variety of types and sizes, the "deckel" was a tool used to make molds I think...the grinder shown is made to create a D type cutter, single lip, but many had indexing to address multiple flutes
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  12. #32
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    It also might be possible to turn an aluminum lap to the reverse form, charge it with abrasive, and use it to lap the form perfect. Spin it just like you would a grinding wheel, but slower (like 100 rpm might be a good start). I have made a few laps like that to create a radius on steady rest fingers and they cut very rapidly, worked way better and faster than I would have thought . The lap could be rotated with the lathe spindle, the tool spun with a 5C spindex bolted to the compound. The beauty is once you have a way to create the form, why not make 2 or more tools in a batch not just one ?? Use one to rough ream, then one finish...you always have the lap to make more tools. I'd make a roller to charge the lap, maybe mount it in a single knurl holder like this, the idea is to press the abrasive into the metal the lap is made of.

    https://a011.geccdn.net/lp/275x275/TRS_3230001.jpg

    Bill
    Last edited by Willbird; 08-22-2018 at 09:38 AM.
    Both ends WHAT a player

  13. #33
    Willbird , that tool cutter grinder has been the tool that I thought along was probly necessary , especially if you lack skill to eyeball it like me . On here there appears to be others able to do it several other ways but I have not . It just stands to reason this would be really repeatable . Right now though too many other things have footed in the way . One day I will snag one of these and right now I don't know of anyone around me with one either . Ain't that the way it always goes ?

  14. #34
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    Since BT is in the business I would have to bow to his knowledge on the subject of making a die. The problem with accuracy in rifle bullets is cast bullets is they are not concentric, simple sizing the band does not make it concentric. I would have to think a .300" nose and a .309" band die would satisfy most 30 caliber needs. A reformed PC bullet would have to give better accuracy, just because it could be made concentric.

  15. #35
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    So much of the fine details of tooling making, especially for this sort of specialty tooling, is "state of the art", with each maker being the artist.

    Even though our forum, and this discussion area, abounds with helpful information for those of you who have machining skills and equipment......... I find it highly unlikely that the few among us who have had greatest success with making a living from the DEVELOPMENT and production of swaging tools are likely to share too much expertise with regard to how to pull off almost impossible machining tasks (like making a high quality point forming die.) We've even had a few folks show up over the tears who thought it was so much easier than it really turned out to be, and tried offering cheaply/poorly made tools at much less than a real cost. They got their heads handed to them for the most part.

    Call Corbin, and ask him how he does the fine tuning on his point forming dies. LOL. Not likely.

    As many of you know, I don't have any machining abilities here, not any interest in developing any. I have relied mostly on Brian's long hours of development. And, I have been willing to pay him for making me tools based on what he knows. I know this thread is about seeking knowledge for making one's own tools. But, I would suggest to Dragonheart, in the politest of ways, that BT Sniper isn't likely to share much detail, for his obvious personal reasons. His livelihood depends on what he has spent endless long hours developing knowledge and skills for. I applaud those among you who have the machining skills. And, envy your abilities to create works of art that we can use to move metals.

    I'll stick with buying my tools, and BT Sniper has been my guy since the beginning of his journey in that direction. Knowledge, even in the light of being ABLE to do something, has a value. In my mind, that value is priceless. Thanks, Brian, for continuing to do what you do.


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  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by DukeInFlorida View Post
    that BT Sniper isn't likely to share much detail, for his obvious personal reasons. His livelihood depends on what he has spent endless long hours developing knowledge and skills for. I applaud those among you who have the machining skills. And, envy your abilities to create works of art that we can use to move metals.

    I'll stick with buying my tools, and BT Sniper has been my guy since the beginning of his journey in that direction. Knowledge, even in the light of being ABLE to do something, has a value. In my mind, that value is priceless. Thanks, Brian, for continuing to do what you do.
    So you are welcome to go ahead and do that. It was not that many years ago that the person you mentioned did not know a thing about the subject. So there is no reason that a group of us working together cannot end up in the same place exponentially faster if we do not have to try to keep any tips or tricks learned to ourselves.

    I once worked for a company that made a lot of tooling for Federal Mogul, much of it was for Champion Spark plug which is a Subsidiary of Federal Mogul. One guy in our plant polished and finished most of the hex colt forming dies for that we made for Fed-Mogul. But over the years Champion sent employees from all over the world so he could teach them how to do it, because the final work has to be done after the carbide insert is loaded in a die case. Fed-Mogul has plants all over the world. That guy taught people in our plant as well. He was way faster than almost anybody because he did it all day every day for 20 years.
    Another part we made was the tooling to swage the portion of the spark plug where the wires attach. It was lathe machined first, then heat treated, then wire EDM cut into 3 pie shaped sections, to "repair" the shape of the outside (which was tapered about 10 degrees) and the inside they were assembled and ground as an assembly on the ID and the OD. During one of the ID grinding operations the tool an die maker( who was me sometimes) was expected to polish the inner features. The grinding cycle was about 6 minutes, so 10 per hour could be ground. All of the ID had to be a 4 microinch finish, and some corners hat to be left SHARP while others the print called for a radius. Tolerances were to a few .0001". Starting out it would take a new person maybe 15 minuted to polish 1 set, after you did a few hundred you could get a set done in maybe 5 minutes. We also had people dedicated to just polishing, the people who did it all day every day could do it in 2-3 minutes without breaking a sweat. Most of that kind of work is more or less "invisible", nobody even knows it is going on out there to end up with this.



    All of those inner features I mentioned create that part, each of them had to be dimensionally perfect within a few .0001" and they all had to be polished to a 4 finish, in under 6 minutes, by hand . We used wooden dowels shaped to the job and diamond lapping compound in 2-3 grades. They were also made of D2 steel which presents it's own set of challenges to those who work with it .

    Another thing we made was all of the parts required to make a feeder that would feed individual .040" steel balls for a process that welded them onto the end of an electrode.



    Kudos to the people who identify a market and develop a product and customer service to fill that market, kudos also to the people who take on a difficult task and master what is needed to do that task.

    If we were wanting to learn to play basketball or hockey nobody would try to talk us out of it.

    Tons and tons of tolling used by all the bullet makers is made annually, Sierra, Hornady, and all of the others. The issue with hobby level stuff is that the market is very small.
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  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Willbird View Post
    So you are welcome to go ahead and do that. It was not that many years ago that the person you mentioned did not know a thing about the subject. So there is no reason that a group of us working together cannot end up in the same place exponentially faster if we do not have to try to keep any tips or tricks learned to ourselves.
    Yes, if I had my university's industrial engineering's complex of equipment available I had a life time ago, turning out a swag die would not be near the task, but like most, my home shop is about as far from the engineering labs as you can get. But when one thinks about it all the big wonderful, amazingly accurate machines and tools, they had their beginnings with inferior machines and tools that evolved into something better than themselves. Like linking numerous computers together to solve bits of an equasion, the same holds true for the human element, called "brainstorming". I see that hapening quire a bit on this site.

    Willbird, I agree completely and the reason I openly share information if others choose not to do so be it.

  18. #38
    Exactly why I asked this group the initial question that started the original conversation . With all the people in this group contributing , I dare say we could send a rocket to the moon , no less we should be able to make a Swaging die no matter how commplicated . We have assembled here some pretty smart people fro all walks of life . Some were the actual hands on do'er's of the bunch ,some have more educated backgrounds .
    Now I will admit that the lack of a fully stocked machine shop is hard to overcome and makes some projected a lot easier to accomplish ... but look where this hobby started ! I will also say if you look through these post , there are a couple fellows here that have done extrodiary things with older simpler equipment. The end results of what they make with this equipment turns out as good as being done on expensive equipment that few of us have , and most the rest of use are trying to figure out how to either have space for or purchase reasonably (cheap enough ) .
    I also will admit I was a lurker that didn't contribute a whole lot for several years (and that's fine too I guess? ) but know that I've gotten going I'm trying to change that by posting to help those out from where I started .
    Want to say thanks again for the info and taking the time to answer sometimes stupid sounding questions to the guys more advanced that take the time to contribute here ...you are educating the beginners here that hopefully will take Swaging further and make it possible for those interested in learning !

  19. #39
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    Willbird Your right on lathe grinding reamers been doing with tool post grinder with good results.Been known to use a dremmel on occasions..
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  20. #40
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by Willbird View Post
    From years of experience grinding tools and job shop machinist.

    The basics are to dress a radius on a grinding wheel, then spin the tool and press it to the grinding wheel.

    A simple radius is the easiest way...you can even make your own tool to swing a single point diamond dresser to create the radius.

    A toolpost grinder might work....a surface grinder is what we used in shops where we had one, a tool and cutter grinder when I worked in a tool and cutter grind shop. I'd probably rough turn, flute, heat treat, then spin the form on.

    Once you have your form you can black it up with a sharpie and back it off to a hair land, most shops I have worked in had one of these...

    https://portal-images.azureedge.net/...pg?w=540&h=360

    The tool could be held in a vee block and the angle set (7 degree primary usually) and you work at it carefully by hand until just a hair of the original form remains. Thinking out loud here I bet a small belt sander could be carefully used the same way.

    For ease of getting the form clear around to the pilot, I might make the pilot fit into a hole through the center, so you can remove it to create and sharpen the tool, then slide it in later.

    Any helix greatly complicates things...straight flute will be easiest.

    There was a grinder type made that was perfect for all of this stuff.

    http://img0112.popscreencdn.com/1622...grinder-w-.jpg

    They are floating around out there in the world in a variety of types and sizes, the "deckel" was a tool used to make molds I think...the grinder shown is made to create a D type cutter, single lip, but many had indexing to address multiple flutes
    Thanks for the tips Willbird. I am in the process of trying to grind the initial profile on a drill bit then as you describe with a sharpie, highlighting the edge and going back by hand with a polishing wheel on a dremel and polishing the relief on the cutting edges. My first attempts were difficult because I do not have anything solid enough to cut the profile without greatly rounding the edges due to flex of the diamond wheel that I use to grind the profile. This leaves too much material to polish off to make these cut.
    i have done something similar to sharpen straight flute reamers (reducing the diameter) with a stone and it works but not with the precision I would like.
    Making the profile on the drill bit first will greatly aid in the creating concentricity for making these type of point forming drill bits.
    I hope that someone else out there may be experimenting with this process.
    It really is possible to make these die cutters by hand ...lot of time and patients with 10X magnification but it can be done.
    AKA hans.pcguy

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